Scheldeprijs 2018 Wednesday 4th April *SPOILERS*

Vino'sGhost

It’s a simple rule, everyone is responsible for riding their bike , it was herd mentality which is no excuse.

ridgerider

Don't think it is as clear cut as that...

A peleton is moving at speed to keep the breakaway under control (probably driven by QS, but I digress). They approach a level crossing and the lights start flashing 1 second before the first rider crosses the tracks.

In my scenario, the first riders have no time to react to the lights so continue on. But at what part of that strung out line of riders should they apply the brakes and stop? I'm not sure it's ever going to happen...

Perhaps the rail companies should be paid to manage any crossing on a race route to prioritize riders over trains?

DeVlaeminck

If you watch it again the barriers are already coming down while Demare (who is at the front) is still on the crossing. If I gambled like that in a car anyone watcing would think I was crazy so I don't really see ow the riders can complain at a DQ.

I don't buy at the riders wouldn't have been aware - you do tend to look well ahead when racing - ok I've never been in the pro peloton but if you just stare at the wheel in front whilst in a racing bunch you will get caught out - and in any case the riders at thenfront of the bunch must have had plenty of time.

The Roubaix incident was a bad one but there was another around the same time, I think maybe in an u23s race, which was even closer. I understand the mentality of cyclists in that kind of situation - similar to in pile ups you are only thinking about getting round the situation and back in the group - but the commissaires have go to protect the riders from themselves so correct decision.

rick_chasey

Boonen making the point in the middle of a race whilst in the bunch you often don't know you're at a crossing till you're on it, ringing bells or not.

Perhaps a suggestion of placing a member of the race jury on the crossings & having a couple extra moto police riders in place nearby to slow the peloton in the event of a barrier coming down & to give a fairer decisions regarding who ought to get thrown out.

DeVlaeminck

Rick Chasey wrote:

Boonen making the point in the middle of a race whilst in the bunch you often don't know you're at a crossing till you're on it, ringing bells or not.

Perhaps a suggestion of placing a member of the race jury on the crossings & having a couple extra moto police riders in place nearby to slow the peloton in the event of a barrier coming down & to give a fairer decisions regarding who ought to get thrown out.

Maybe in a Paris Roubaix with crowds, helicopters etc but I suspect Boonen is just talking as a member of the rider's union. Some of them were weaving round the barriers there.

Vino'sGhost

my memory of racing was that i spent a lot of time entirley unaware of my surroundings when the effort was on. immediately to the front and sides if i was in a bunch.

blazing_saddles

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Boonen making the point in the middle of a race whilst in the bunch you often don't know you're at a crossing till you're on it, ringing bells or not.

Perhaps a suggestion of placing a member of the race jury on the crossings & having a couple extra moto police riders in place nearby to slow the peloton in the event of a barrier coming down & to give a fairer decisions regarding who ought to get thrown out.

Maybe in a Paris Roubaix with crowds, helicopters etc but I suspect Boonen is just talking as a member of the rider's union. Some of them were weaving round the barriers there.

I don't think one can take issue with those riders who weaved around the barriers, that is a definite no no, but as to this:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

If you watch it again the barriers are already coming down while Demare (who is at the front) is still on the crossing. If I gambled like that in a car anyone watcing would think I was crazy so I don't really see ow the riders can complain at a DQ.

Even were one to concede that the barriers had begun to come down, at worst they commenced just as Demare exited the crossing.
It takes a special kind of self control to pull up in the middle of full on racing, in expectation of a barrier being lowered at some point.
In which case, and with race juries adopting a tougher attitude, Rick's suggestion of policing crossings seems most sensible.
If the riders are expected to display such levels of anticipation, why not expect the same from those in charge?

DeVlaeminck

I don't think he needed to anticipate, it's 30 riders on wide open terrain with warning lights and I assume some kind of warning sound. Plus they all have radios which we are told are crucial to warn them of possible safety issues.

They knew, they have to look ahead to anticipate the line through turns, to negotiate road furniture etc, it's possible someone further back had their view obscured but there is no way Demare and others weren't aware - they just decided to go through the red probably thinking they had a bit more time before the barriers came down.

Dorset_Boy

I agree (with Mr Saddles). The race organizers must know the times the barriers are due to come down on any given crossing and it wouldn't be that hard to ensure the riders were warned ahead of it it and the race neutralised / policed in the approach.

The back of the group managed to stop, much of the middle clearly broke the rules, and the front of the group probably had little option but to continue through. However, sport is nothing if you refuse to accept the decisions of the officials.

Demare and FDJ are just coming across as a bunch of whingers atm - to rephrase their abuse of Tony Martin, 90% of people won't like them anymore (as a result).

RichN95.

Dorset Boy wrote:

I agree (with Mr Saddles). The race organizers must know the times the barriers are due to come down on any given crossing and it wouldn't be that hard to ensure the riders were warned ahead of it it and the race neutralised / policed in the approach.

It should be fairly simple. Have marshalls posted further up the railway tracks reporting when a train goes past. If the riders are in an 'at risk' area when one does, get the commissaires' cars to neutralise the race for a few minutes until the problem passes.

r0bh

DeVlaeminck wrote:

I don't think he needed to anticipate, it's 30 riders on wide open terrain with warning lights and I assume some kind of warning sound. Plus they all have radios which we are told are crucial to warn them of possible safety issues.

They knew, they have to look ahead to anticipate the line through turns, to negotiate road furniture etc, it's possible someone further back had their view obscured but there is no way Demare and others weren't aware - they just decided to go through the red probably thinking they had a bit more time before the barriers came down.

Well that's the view from your armchair, but one view from the race courtesy of Conor Dunne's twitter is a bit different:

Genuine mistake today and I'm sorry. In a group chasing full gas just behind the front group after a crash caused a split in bunch. We were going full gas and I did not see the railway until I was literally on it. Did not see any red lights or hear any alarm. 1/2

At that point I was only looking at the wheel in front and concentrating on not crashing in the gutter. It was a mistake and I'm sorry, but it genuinely wasn't done intentionally. 2/2

ContrelaMontre

Dorset Boy wrote:

I agree (with Mr Saddles). The race organizers must know the times the barriers are due to come down on any given crossing and it wouldn't be that hard to ensure the riders were warned ahead of it it and the race neutralised / policed in the approach.

There is currently a national rail strike in France.
I'd be surprised if rail operators publish timetables for level crossings.
The race timetable is affected by how the race is being raced and the conditions, headwind, crosswinds etc.

To suggest it is easy to know in advance the barriers coming down on the riders is naive.

Dorset_Boy

ContrelaMontre wrote:

Dorset Boy wrote:

I agree (with Mr Saddles). The race organizers must know the times the barriers are due to come down on any given crossing and it wouldn't be that hard to ensure the riders were warned ahead of it it and the race neutralised / policed in the approach.

There is currently a national rail strike in France.
I'd be surprised if rail operators publish timetables for level crossings.
The race timetable is affected by how the race is being raced and the conditions, headwind, crosswinds etc.

To suggest it is easy to know in advance the barriers coming down on the riders is naive.

Really? Ever heard of Risk Assessments?
Level crossing on route - so the organizers contact rail company to establish times trains will pass crossings on the route, and compare those to the time window the riders are likely to reach that point. Not exactly rocket science to work out whether there is a potential issue, and far from naive to assume the organizers could obtain appropriate information on which to act to avoid the situation seen yesterday.

The french rail strike has nothing to do with it at all (afaik this race wasn't in France ), although if no trains on Sunday then no similar issues at P-R!!

rick_chasey

Dorset Boy wrote:

ContrelaMontre wrote:

Dorset Boy wrote:

I agree (with Mr Saddles). The race organizers must know the times the barriers are due to come down on any given crossing and it wouldn't be that hard to ensure the riders were warned ahead of it it and the race neutralised / policed in the approach.

There is currently a national rail strike in France.
I'd be surprised if rail operators publish timetables for level crossings.
The race timetable is affected by how the race is being raced and the conditions, headwind, crosswinds etc.

To suggest it is easy to know in advance the barriers coming down on the riders is naive.

Really? Ever heard of Risk Assessments?
Level crossing on route - so the organizers contact rail company to establish times trains will pass crossings on the route, and compare those to the time window the riders are likely to reach that point. Not exactly rocket science to work out whether there is a potential issue, and far from naive to assume the organizers could obtain appropriate information on which to act to avoid the situation seen yesterday.

The french rail strike has nothing to do with it at all (afaik this race wasn't in France ), although if no trains on Sunday then no similar issues at P-R!!

It was mainly because the crosswinds meant the peloton raced the first 100km absolutely balls out fast; they were ahead of the fastest scheduled time.

blazing_saddles

ContrelaMontre wrote:

Dorset Boy wrote:

I agree (with Mr Saddles). The race organizers must know the times the barriers are due to come down on any given crossing and it wouldn't be that hard to ensure the riders were warned ahead of it it and the race neutralised / policed in the approach.

There is currently a national rail strike in France.

Just how would that have any impact upon a Belgian race? :?
Read Rich's post. How many crossings in a race?
A couple of marshalls up the line shouldn't be a problem.

dinyull

Rick Chasey wrote:

Perhaps a suggestion of placing a member of the race jury on the crossings & having a couple extra moto police riders in place nearby to slow the peloton in the event of a barrier coming down & to give a fairer decisions regarding who ought to get thrown out.

Such common sense, don't be silly!

ridgerider

Not so sure...

The lights start to flash as the first rider in a strung out, 100m long, peloton crosses the tracks. What does the member of the race jury do in that situation...?

The only true safe option is for larger groups of riders to have to stop at every crossing and be given permission to cross, just as drivers of large or wide loads have to here.

ContrelaMontre

Blazing Saddles wrote:

ContrelaMontre wrote:

Dorset Boy wrote:

I agree (with Mr Saddles). The race organizers must know the times the barriers are due to come down on any given crossing and it wouldn't be that hard to ensure the riders were warned ahead of it it and the race neutralised / policed in the approach.

There is currently a national rail strike in France.

Just how would that have any impact upon a Belgian race? :?
Read Rich's post. How many crossings in a race?
A couple of marshalls up the line shouldn't be a problem.

In fact, the race was in the Netherlands at the time!
My point is more that it might sound simple to say just look at the train timetable, but this is waaay too complex. In the low countries there will be trains running across borders that are both passenger and freight. And there will be delays and unplanned barrier closures. The organisers may have planned to avoid an incident and then the race was raced faster than the fastest schedule and lo they come into conflict with a train crossing.

As Ridgerider suggests, the only safe option is to stop and gain permission. The peloton is effectively a long slow moving vehicle, which at crossings in the UK are required to call to get clearance before crossing certain level crossings.

DeVlaeminck

r0bh wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

I don't think he needed to anticipate, it's 30 riders on wide open terrain with warning lights and I assume some kind of warning sound. Plus they all have radios which we are told are crucial to warn them of possible safety issues.

They knew, they have to look ahead to anticipate the line through turns, to negotiate road furniture etc, it's possible someone further back had their view obscured but there is no way Demare and others weren't aware - they just decided to go through the red probably thinking they had a bit more time before the barriers came down.

Well that's the view from your armchair, but one view from the race courtesy of Conor Dunne's twitter is a bit different:

Genuine mistake today and I'm sorry. In a group chasing full gas just behind the front group after a crash caused a split in bunch. We were going full gas and I did not see the railway until I was literally on it. Did not see any red lights or hear any alarm. 1/2

At that point I was only looking at the wheel in front and concentrating on not crashing in the gutter. It was a mistake and I'm sorry, but it genuinely wasn't done intentionally. 2/2

Because cyclists have never been known to lie when facing a possible ban? It's possible, just about, that some further back were unaware but those at the front of that bunch not a chance, there is a gantry over the road with flashing light on it, must be visible a km away.

The problem isn't lack of marshalls it's riders trying to nip across before the barriers come down.

blazing_saddles

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Because cyclists have never been known to lie when facing a possible ban? It's possible, just about, that some further back were unaware but those at the front of that bunch not a chance, there is a gantry over the road with flashing light on it, must be visible a km away.

The problem isn't lack of marshalls it's riders trying to nip across before the barriers come down.

Dismissing a rider's account as a lie, because it does not conform to your view is unfair.
Given the debate this incident has sparked, a ban is extremely unlikely, so does little to justify the claim,

So, what happens when the riders in front shove the anchors for no apparent reason, to those unaware, behind?
I get the impression that you think that the leaders should switch seamlessly into some sort of marshaling role, to allow the bunch to come to a uniform stop, rather than a rear end pile up.

DeVlaeminck

Blazing Saddles wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Because cyclists have never been known to lie when facing a possible ban? It's possible, just about, that some further back were unaware but those at the front of that bunch not a chance, there is a gantry over the road with flashing light on it, must be visible a km away.

The problem isn't lack of marshalls it's riders trying to nip across before the barriers come down.

Dismissing a rider's account as a lie, because it does not conform to your view is unfair.
Given the debate this incident has sparked, a ban is extremely unlikely, so does little to justify the claim,

So, what happens when the riders in front shove the anchors for no apparent reason, to those unaware, behind?
I get the impression that you think that the leaders should switch seamlessly into some sort of marshaling role, to allow the bunch to come to a uniform stop, rather than a rear end pile up.

The lights flash and loud bells ring for about 20 seconds before the barriers start to come down - plenty of time to stop. It's simply not credible to suggest the whole bunch were unaware well in advance.

DeVlaeminck

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qG8ExPQwFFc

RichN95.

DeVlaeminck wrote:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qG8ExPQwFFc

Then there's the whirring of bikes, the motorbikes, the helicopter and it blurs into one big soundscape - particularly to people who aren't familiar with Dutch level crossings

blazing_saddles

RichN95 wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qG8ExPQwFFc

Then there's the whirring of bikes, the motorbikes, the helicopter and it blurs into one big soundscape - particularly to people who aren't familiar with Dutch level crossings

Not to mention the most obvious distraction: race radios.

ocdupalais

Bearing in mind the catastrophic affects on the race of the mass disqualification yesterday - and really keeping that firmly in mind for all teams directly or indirectly negatively affected - have any race in which a level crossing impacts either the peloton, or those in front of it, immediately neutralised. With the knowledge that that's the protocol, any rider would instantly do the right thing for their circumstances (i.e. pull up safely - and not worry about making it across the crossing if in doubt) - confident that things would more or less work out once the race was re-started. Any major race has a helicopter and that would become instrumental in verifying, recording and logging gaps at the point of the barrier coming down. There's apparently an issue with too many moto riders; those who are actually part of the race administration would have the momentary role of marshalling the time gaps once the race is re-started.

m.r.m.

Too sensible for cycling. GTFO!