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Murder rate in London overtakes New York

slowmartslowmart Posts: 3,809
edited April 2018 in The cake stop
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43610936

What can you do and say? What a remarkable achievement Mrs May in the cuts to the police service while you were Home Secretary and then PM.

Now if we had an effective opposition and a proper leader, leading that opposition then May have been bought to book, we haven’t so literally May will get away with murder
And God created the bicycle, so that man could use it as a means for work and to help him negotiate life's complicated journey.
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  • mrfpbmrfpb Posts: 4,390
    Surely it's the London Mayor to blame - ie the swap from Boris to Sadiq.

    Nice use of the word "literally" by the way. How many people has Theresa May "literally" murdered.

    As a Leave voter I have shall have to let the next contributor blame Brexit.
  • cooldadcooldad Posts: 32,904
    Just for perspective, that does compare the UK city with the highest crime rate, (it's actually Boston, but I think that's a town not a city) against the US city with the lowest.

    Compared to say Baltimore London is like Disneyland.

    https://www.safewise.com/blog/safest-metro-cities/

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/m ... ts-7225784"] 2nd most violent major city in England
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  • cooldadcooldad Posts: 32,904
    Another interesting set of figures, murders based on years instead of a bad month or two.

    Year |London | New York
    1990 | 184 | 2245
    1991 | 184 | 2154
    1992 | 175 | 1995
    1993 | 160 | 1946
    1994 | 169 | 1561
    1995 | 167 | 1177
    1996 | 139 | 983
    1997 | 190 | 770
    1998 | 159 | 663
    1999 | 146 | 671
    2000 | 171 | 673
    2001 | 190 | 649
    2002 | 189 | 587
    2003 | 204 | 597
    2004 | 182 | 570
    2005 | 168 | 539
    2006 | 162 | 596
    2007 | 156 | 494
    2008 | 148 | 522
    2009 | 136 | 471
    2010 | 123 | 534
    2011 | 121 | 515
    2012 | 89 | 414
    2013 | 86 | 332
    2014 | 83 | 328
    2015 | 118 | 352
    2016 | 110 | 335
    2017 | 130 | 290
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  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 46,744 Lives Here
    New York is super safe though.

    And not just the island either.
  • crispybug2crispybug2 Posts: 2,997
    slowmart wrote:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43610936

    What can you do and say? What a remarkable achievement Mrs May in the cuts to the police service while you were Home Secretary and then PM.

    Now if we had an effective opposition and a proper leader, leading that opposition then May have been bought to book, we haven’t so literally May will get away with murder

    You might want to check the dictionary definition of ‘literally’, really you should!!
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 16,926
    cooldad wrote:
    Another interesting set of figures, murders based on years instead of a bad month or two.

    Year |London | New York
    1990 | 184 | 2245
    1991 | 184 | 2154
    1992 | 175 | 1995
    1993 | 160 | 1946
    1994 | 169 | 1561
    1995 | 167 | 1177
    1996 | 139 | 983
    1997 | 190 | 770
    1998 | 159 | 663
    1999 | 146 | 671
    2000 | 171 | 673
    2001 | 190 | 649
    2002 | 189 | 587
    2003 | 204 | 597
    2004 | 182 | 570
    2005 | 168 | 539
    2006 | 162 | 596
    2007 | 156 | 494
    2008 | 148 | 522
    2009 | 136 | 471
    2010 | 123 | 534
    2011 | 121 | 515
    2012 | 89 | 414
    2013 | 86 | 332
    2014 | 83 | 328
    2015 | 118 | 352
    2016 | 110 | 335
    2017 | 130 | 290

    So a worrying increase that needs to be addressed, but the comparison with NY is pretty meaningless.
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  • ProssPross Posts: 22,153
    Surely it's more a case of New York doing a great job in reducing what was a serious crime problem? I dread to think what the rate was in the 70s and 80s in New York. By comparison London is very stable (apart from 3 years when May was Home Secretary and rates dropped below 100 suggesting a fundamental flaw in the OPs argument).
  • finchyfinchy Posts: 6,889
    Has NYC managed to stop murders, though, or just move them out of the city? I seem to remember reading somewhere that the social problems have all been pushed onto surrounding areas.

    Anyway, you can't draw meaningful comparisons about social issues from 2 months' worth of data.
  • cooldadcooldad Posts: 32,904
    It's too expensive for poor people to live in NY.

    Crime rates in surrounds, like New Jersey, are still high.
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  • slowmartslowmart Posts: 3,809
    crispybug2 wrote:
    slowmart wrote:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43610936

    What can you do and say? What a remarkable achievement Mrs May in the cuts to the police service while you were Home Secretary and then PM.

    Now if we had an effective opposition and a proper leader, leading that opposition then May have been bought to book, we haven’t so literally May will get away with murder

    You might want to check the dictionary definition of ‘literally’, really you should!!


    Ok MT may not have had the mens rea for murder :wink: but what impact do you think reducing police numbers has had on effective crime fighting, not to mention morale and future recruitment of the service?

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... er-budgets
    And God created the bicycle, so that man could use it as a means for work and to help him negotiate life's complicated journey.
  • ProssPross Posts: 22,153
    slowmart wrote:
    crispybug2 wrote:
    slowmart wrote:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43610936

    What can you do and say? What a remarkable achievement Mrs May in the cuts to the police service while you were Home Secretary and then PM.

    Now if we had an effective opposition and a proper leader, leading that opposition then May have been bought to book, we haven’t so literally May will get away with murder

    You might want to check the dictionary definition of ‘literally’, really you should!!


    Ok MT may not have had the mens rea for murder :wink: but what impact do you think reducing police numbers has had on effective crime fighting, not to mention morale and future recruitment of the service?

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... er-budgets

    But since the coalition government came in and really pushed austerity in 2010, assuming the numbers above are correct, every year has had a lower murder rate than any time in the previous 20 years with the best years under the coalition having less than half the number of the worst years under the Labour government with its apparent high spending. You seem to have based your whole argument on two months of statistics which I'm sure any statistician will tell you cannot determine a trend and you've ignored that the 'lower than New York' bit is due to New York's rate decreasing sharply.
  • tangled_metaltangled_metal Posts: 3,980
    Who was home secretary in the lead up to those sub 100 murder rates? Seems to me there was a drop from the 90s but it had more or less steadied out apart from three low figures and the slightly high 2017 figures.

    I also heard that NY's much praised zero tolerance approach made it harder for the illegal activities associated with murder to operate in their boundaries but they moved out to other areas I also read. If you averaged out the areas they moved to and that for NY I wonder if there was really a great decrease overall. Any figures to support that idea?

    Sorry Brexiteers but I don't think you can go all victim on this one. I doubt anyone will blame Brexit for this one. Why do you feel like a victim for getting your way? Is it that you don't feel like you're getting your way? I doubt anyone is.

    So a thread about murder rate comparison between LDN & NYC has morphed into a thread moaning about the morale of those poor police officers. Sorry, I don't give a hoot about morale. It's a job, are they doing it or not is what I care about.
  • milemuncher1milemuncher1 Posts: 1,472
    They need to classify Newham and Croydon as a separate country. That should bring the numbers down a bit.
  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 22,320 Lives Here
    Sorry, I don't give a hoot about morale. It's a job, are they doing it or not is what I care about.
    You do know there is a link between the two.
  • tangled_metaltangled_metal Posts: 3,980
    veronese68 wrote:
    Sorry, I don't give a hoot about morale. It's a job, are they doing it or not is what I care about.
    You do know there is a link between the two.
    Yes, same as for other jobs but with the police you do hear the morale issue raised a lot more than other jobs. The morale of the coppers I know always seem OK. They do moan a lot, but the moans are the same ones I hear about from other jobs. The shift patterns, the overtime, etc.
  • mrfpbmrfpb Posts: 4,390
    TM You do realise my Brexit comment was tongue in cheek don't you. In response to a half-assed political rant by the OP based on sensationalist reporting.
    Since the article states that Cressida censored is touring the country to see why other areas (like Glasgow) are cutting murder rates in a way that London isn't, its clearly a London problem more than a national problem.
  • slowmartslowmart Posts: 3,809
    edited April 2018
    mrfpb wrote:
    TM You do realise my Brexit comment was tongue in cheek don't you. In response to a half-assed political rant by the OP based on sensationalist reporting.
    Since the article states that Cressida censored is touring the country to see why other areas (like Glasgow) are cutting murder rates in a way that London isn't, its clearly a London problem more than a national problem.

    Mmmm,

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theg ... n-a-decade

    8 years of reduced head count for the police with not only a increase in violent crime but an accelerating trend

    I suppose if your head is up your censored you won’t see a correlation but hey that’s fine

    And not having an effective opposition in government means to Tories don’t have to find an extra gear and be better than the complete losers in situ.
    And God created the bicycle, so that man could use it as a means for work and to help him negotiate life's complicated journey.
  • okgookgo Posts: 4,368
    They're almost all between teenagers fighting each other thinking they're in Compton - there are very few parts of London I don't feel safe walking around really.
    Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com
  • ProssPross Posts: 22,153
    slowmart wrote:
    mrfpb wrote:
    TM You do realise my Brexit comment was tongue in cheek don't you. In response to a half-assed political rant by the OP based on sensationalist reporting.
    Since the article states that Cressida censored is touring the country to see why other areas (like Glasgow) are cutting murder rates in a way that London isn't, its clearly a London problem more than a national problem.

    Mmmm,

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theg ... n-a-decade

    8 years of reduced head count and not only increases in violent crime but an accelerating trend

    I suppose if your head is up your censored you won’t see a correlation but hey that’s fine

    And not having an effective opposition in government means to Tories don’t have to find an extra gear and be better than the complete losers in situ.

    Nice goal post moving!
  • slowmartslowmart Posts: 3,809
    When do you raise the point, on the first trigger or ignore the statistics for two months? BTW its an extension of the original point rather than moving the goal posts.... :wink:
    And God created the bicycle, so that man could use it as a means for work and to help him negotiate life's complicated journey.
  • awaveyawavey Posts: 2,368
    okgo wrote:
    They're almost all between teenagers fighting each other thinking they're in Compton - there are very few parts of London I don't feel safe walking around really.

    maybe its as I grow older, but I dont feel as safe in some parts of London now, that perhaps I naively felt were no problem in my youth or when I was working down there alot, albeit it did always shock me even 20 years ago to walk past those police signs appealing for witnesses to what seemed like a murder every day.

    but Im certainly alot more wary when I see fairly obvious gangs and groupings of youths/teenagers hanging around, and I dont like having to walk back/from a distant tube stop by myself when its dark much anymore, and there are parts, like Croydon, Id still be as wary during the day.

    back when the track world championships were being held at Lee Valley, I stayed down in a hotel in Stratford, which meant walking past the old pre Westfield shopping precinct,where I think there have been a couple of stabbings at least, if not murders recently, past 10pm and its not a place I was remotely comfortable being near.
  • okgookgo Posts: 4,368
    Then you look at who the murders are - go on murdermap and they're generally teenagers by and large. Most of it will be gang related. I'm in Tulse Hill and there are plenty of murders around and about but I don't feel unsafe.
    Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 46,744 Lives Here
    More murders per head in Wales than London.
  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 22,320 Lives Here
    awavey wrote:
    okgo wrote:
    They're almost all between teenagers fighting each other thinking they're in Compton - there are very few parts of London I don't feel safe walking around really.
    maybe its as I grow older, but I dont feel as safe in some parts of London now.
    Must say I agree with okgo on this. Went to the Forum and Kentish Town a couple of weeks ago and was laughing to myself at how posh it is up there compared to how it used to be. Brixton feels safe now, can't say I always felt safe there 30 years ago.
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 39,610
    veronese68 wrote:
    awavey wrote:
    okgo wrote:
    They're almost all between teenagers fighting each other thinking they're in Compton - there are very few parts of London I don't feel safe walking around really.
    maybe its as I grow older, but I dont feel as safe in some parts of London now.
    Must say I agree with okgo on this. Went to the Forum and Kentish Town a couple of weeks ago and was laughing to myself at how posh it is up there compared to how it used to be. Brixton feels safe now, can't say I always felt safe there 30 years ago.
    Well I was also in Kentish town a couple of weeks ago and there was a really dodgy bloke in the pub where we were. Had to drink more cider until I felt safe :)
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  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 22,320 Lives Here
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Well I was also in Kentish town a couple of weeks ago and there was a really dodgy bloke in the pub where we were. Had to drink more cider until I felt safe :)
    He may well have been dodgy, but he could never be described as menacing.
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 13,701
    Another stabbing 'victim' in London

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43639183

    Finding it difficult to shed many tears.
  • slowmartslowmart Posts: 3,809
    ballysmate wrote:
    Another stabbing 'victim' in London

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43639183

    Finding it difficult to shed many tears.

    Let's hope rather than a criminal charge a knighthood follows for the individual concerned. A larger benefit to society than some civil servant or politician's career output.

    One burglar less makes the world a better place. It's always been rather annoying that burglars think themselves a cut above the convicted peado when to me they are cut from the same cloth.
    And God created the bicycle, so that man could use it as a means for work and to help him negotiate life's complicated journey.
  • sungodsungod Posts: 12,209
    ^^^this

    one less thieving scumbag, pure win
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 39,610
    The sooner this sort of thing is seen as an occupational hazard for burglars the better.
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