Benefits payments

finchy

Surrey Commuter wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Believing in luck is akin to believing in an imaginary friend. It really winds me up when people refer to luck as it just feels like a way of absolving themselves of personal responsibility.

Rephrase it to events outwith your control. Good or bad.
Better?

Give me an example.

Family you're born into. Health. Physical appearance. Intelligence.

To take my life as an example, I've had some good luck in that I was born intelligent (sorry if that sounds immodest, but every time I've taken an intelligence test, at school and afterwards, I've scored very highly in all categories). On the other hand, I was unlucky in that my Dad was hypercritical (having suffered the same from his Dad, who was severely mentally ill due to his experiences in WW2), and that damaged my self-esteem massively, and gave me a massive fear of failure, preventing me from taking risks with my life and, up until now, fulfilling my potential. I then had a stroke of luck in that I read a number of psychology articles about fear of failure and how to overcome it. I wasn't actively searching out this information, I was just browsing science websites when I came across them. Since then, my life has been gradually improving, and I feel that I'm really ready for a new start. So I would say that I've been massively affected by a mixture of good luck and bad luck. If I can land a job I'm going for next week, I'll consider that to be a stroke of luck, because it's a field I really want to work in, and openings are few and far between. Obviously I will prepare as well as I can, but the interviewer will make a subjective judgement about who is most suitable for the role, and he may or may not decide that is me. I might get the nod over a better candidate, I might get rejected for a worse one.

Another example - an ex-girlfriend of mine. Alcoholic, abusive neo-Nazi for a Dad, serious degenerative disease. Does she stand the same chance as somebody in great health, born into a loving family? No. She finds it hard to trust people, maintain decent relationships and sometimes just to work all day in a sedentary job.

Or take my wife. Her life was going fantastically and then she lost both her parents before she was even 30, each of them suffering appallingly for over a year. It took her the best part of a decade to get over that.

Face it, we all depend on luck in some way or another. Some people are just more ready to admit that than others.

finchy

Stevo 666 wrote:

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

Name lazy people who have made it?

Personally I cannot think of one lazy fekker who is successful.

The Royal Family. Donald Trumps kids. Feck, George Bush’s kids. Margaret Thatcher’s kids. The current Duke of Westminster I could go on.

Nope, success involved achieving something yourself to get your reward. The lot you list are just passively in receipt of somebody else's past successes.

The cast of The Only Way is Essex, Geordie Shore, etc.

ballysmate

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Slowmart wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Broadly speaking we're lucky to not be hungry and we as a society put way too much value on individual actions and way too little on luck when it comes to people's what people earn and the wealth they have. That much has been empirically proved over and over again.

It would take a lot to persuade me that luck is the primary determinant of earnings

SC It's equally amazing and galling a persons perception of wealth and how it's attained.

You're really lucky to have X, Y or C.....




Yep, the harder i work the luckier I get, now please fark right off.

You make your own luck as they say.

Funny how a lot of people who aren't that successful seem to subscribe to the theory that luck is the main determinant of how successful you are.

Conversely, funny how people who are successful tend to be convinced their success is entirely down to their efforts and talent. The research has been done and the evidence is there. Sure you can take advantage of opportunities or not, but you can only play the cards your dealt. Looking at it the other way, I've seen plenty of successful people and businesses wiped out by events beyond their control.

Name lazy people who have made it?

Personally I cannot think of one lazy fekker who is successful.

The Royal Family. Donald Trumps kids. Feck, George Bush’s kids. Margaret Thatcher’s kids. The current Duke of Westminster I could go on.

Depends on your definition of successful. Subjective.

pblakeney

Surrey Commuter wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Believing in luck is akin to believing in an imaginary friend. It really winds me up when people refer to luck as it just feels like a way of absolving themselves of personal responsibility.

Rephrase it to events outwith your control. Good or bad.
Better?

Give me an example.

On here you will see many posts about punctures. Some people think they are lucky/unlucky and accept their fate. Many others will suggest ways to minimise punctures.

That piece of glass that you would normally see and avoid. However there is a potential near pass diverting your attention... Outwith your control but is it luck?

surrey_commuter

finchy wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Believing in luck is akin to believing in an imaginary friend. It really winds me up when people refer to luck as it just feels like a way of absolving themselves of personal responsibility.

Rephrase it to events outwith your control. Good or bad.
Better?

Give me an example.

Family you're born into. Health. Physical appearance. Intelligence.

To take my life as an example, I've had some good luck in that I was born intelligent (sorry if that sounds immodest, but every time I've taken an intelligence test, at school and afterwards, I've scored very highly in all categories). On the other hand, I was unlucky in that my Dad was hypercritical (having suffered the same from his Dad, who was severely mentally ill due to his experiences in WW2), and that damaged my self-esteem massively, and gave me a massive fear of failure, preventing me from taking risks with my life and, up until now, fulfilling my potential. I then had a stroke of luck in that I read a number of psychology articles about fear of failure and how to overcome it. I wasn't actively searching out this information, I was just browsing science websites when I came across them. Since then, my life has been gradually improving, and I feel that I'm really ready for a new start. So I would say that I've been massively affected by a mixture of good luck and bad luck. If I can land a job I'm going for next week, I'll consider that to be a stroke of luck, because it's a field I really want to work in, and openings are few and far between. Obviously I will prepare as well as I can, but the interviewer will make a subjective judgement about who is most suitable for the role, and he may or may not decide that is me. I might get the nod over a better candidate, I might get rejected for a worse one.

Another example - an ex-girlfriend of mine. Alcoholic, abusive neo-Nazi for a Dad, serious degenerative disease. Does she stand the same chance as somebody in great health, born into a loving family? No. She finds it hard to trust people, maintain decent relationships and sometimes just to work all day in a sedentary job.

Or take my wife. Her life was going fantastically and then she lost both her parents before she was even 30, each of them suffering appallingly for over a year. It took her the best part of a decade to get over that.

Face it, we all depend on luck in some way or another. Some people are just more ready to admit that than others.

But you were browsing the science websites and took the time to read the psychology reports. You identified the field and found a job to apply for and are maximising your chances of success. I have no doubt if you do not get this role you will learn from your experience and be better prepared the next time.

Good luck (irony intended) in the interview

surrey_commuter

PBlakeney wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Believing in luck is akin to believing in an imaginary friend. It really winds me up when people refer to luck as it just feels like a way of absolving themselves of personal responsibility.

Rephrase it to events outwith your control. Good or bad.
Better?

Give me an example.

On here you will see many posts about punctures. Some people think they are lucky/unlucky and accept their fate. Many others will suggest ways to minimise punctures.

That piece of glass that you would normally see and avoid. However there is a potential near pass diverting your attention... Outwith your control but is it luck?

So you could shrug your shoulders and deem yourself unlucky or continue to seek ways of minimising punctures.

surrey_commuter

finchy wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

Name lazy people who have made it?

Personally I cannot think of one lazy fekker who is successful.

The Royal Family. Donald Trumps kids. Feck, George Bush’s kids. Margaret Thatcher’s kids. The current Duke of Westminster I could go on.

Nope, success involved achieving something yourself to get your reward. The lot you list are just passively in receipt of somebody else's past successes.

The cast of The Only Way is Essex, Geordie Shore, etc.

You would be amazed at the lengths some of those people go to.

slowmart

rjsterry

Surrey Commuter wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Believing in luck is akin to believing in an imaginary friend. It really winds me up when people refer to luck as it just feels like a way of absolving themselves of personal responsibility.

Rephrase it to events outwith your control. Good or bad.
Better?

Give me an example.

On here you will see many posts about punctures. Some people think they are lucky/unlucky and accept their fate. Many others will suggest ways to minimise punctures.

That piece of glass that you would normally see and avoid. However there is a potential near pass diverting your attention... Outwith your control but is it luck?

So you could shrug your shoulders and deem yourself unlucky or continue to seek ways of minimising punctures.

Use the word chance or uncertainty if you prefer. You seem deeply uncomfortable with the idea that you are not in complete control. There are things that you can do to improve the odds here and there, but there are some risks that you can't reasonably guard against - it's either not possible or the trade off to eliminate the risk is worse than the original risk. Just as you can wrongly assign some poor decision to 'bad luck' you can kid yourself that the beneficial outcomes are solely due to your agency.

pblakeney

rjsterry wrote:

Use the word chance or uncertainty if you prefer. You seem deeply uncomfortable with the idea that you are not in complete control. There are things that you can do to improve the odds here and there, but there are some risks that you can't reasonably guard against - it's either not possible or the trade off to eliminate the risk is worse than the original risk. Just as you can wrongly assign some poor decision to 'bad luck' you can kid yourself that the beneficial outcomes are solely due to your agency.

I like how badly people can interpret posts on here.
I was giving an example, not expressing my beliefs.

rick_chasey

Surrey Commuter wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Believing in luck is akin to believing in an imaginary friend. It really winds me up when people refer to luck as it just feels like a way of absolving themselves of personal responsibility.

Rephrase it to events outwith your control. Good or bad.
Better?

Give me an example.

On here you will see many posts about punctures. Some people think they are lucky/unlucky and accept their fate. Many others will suggest ways to minimise punctures.

Where and to whom you are born.

And SC you think I’m absolving responsibility?

There’s also an assumption here that lazy=poor and hard working=rich.

Neither is the case.

FishFish

[quote=

There’s also an assumption here that lazy=poor and hard working=rich.

Neither is the case.[/quote]

Well if you accept, as most people do, that wealth is determined by earnings from work then the assumption is true. Even if you accept broader definitions then statistically hard working determines economic success. Of course there are exceptions and people becoming wealthy by inheritance and so on but they are an insignificant part of the population we are discussing.

Grow up.

rick_chasey

Most people work fish.

Most people work similar ish hours.

So what’s the difference?

If you google role of luck in income you’ll get a raft of studies and articles. Have a read if you’re actually interested, as opppsed to making yourself feel better that that nice tv and car you have in a nice wealthy nation is do so with what you do and not that you were born in a wealthy nation.

verylonglegs

I continue to be amazed at how few people acknowledge the part luck and chance plays in how their lives turn out, especially amongst people well read and in occupations that suggest a decent level of intelligence. You really think you are in control of your lives? Even a brief study of history should indicate otherwise.

rick_chasey

Consider the clichéd extremes: the child born to a drug addicted homeless mother and the child of a well to do doctor.

You think their chances of earning x per year are roughly the same when they’re older?

pblakeney

Is brown nosing and who you know considered to be work? I suppose networking could be so why not? Appears to be the best way to get ahead in my experience.

surrey_commuter

rjsterry wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Believing in luck is akin to believing in an imaginary friend. It really winds me up when people refer to luck as it just feels like a way of absolving themselves of personal responsibility.

Rephrase it to events outwith your control. Good or bad.
Better?

Give me an example.

On here you will see many posts about punctures. Some people think they are lucky/unlucky and accept their fate. Many others will suggest ways to minimise punctures.

That piece of glass that you would normally see and avoid. However there is a potential near pass diverting your attention... Outwith your control but is it luck?

So you could shrug your shoulders and deem yourself unlucky or continue to seek ways of minimising punctures.

Use the word chance or uncertainty if you prefer. You seem deeply uncomfortable with the idea that you are not in complete control. There are things that you can do to improve the odds here and there, but there are some risks that you can't reasonably guard against - it's either not possible or the trade off to eliminate the risk is worse than the original risk. Just as you can wrongly assign some poor decision to 'bad luck' you can kid yourself that the beneficial outcomes are solely due to your agency.

Nope not deeply uncomfortable. First noticed it in sport with Arsene Wenger who every year says he was unlucky with injuries. If he believes he is unlucky then he will not look at other factors to solve his decade long problem. I then noticed a theme of sports people blaming luck for incidents of chance that if they acknowledged as such they could influence. I then read a book by Derren Brown in part of which he looked at “chance” and people’s perception of luck.

I don’t have some binary mantra by which I lead my life.

shortfall

Ballysmate wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Believing in luck is akin to believing in an imaginary friend. It really winds me up when people refer to luck as it just feels like a way of absolving themselves of personal responsibility.

Rephrase it to events outwith your control. Good or bad.
Better?

Give me an example.

On here you will see many posts about punctures. Some people think they are lucky/unlucky and accept their fate. Many others will suggest ways to minimise punctures.

An example?
Someone builds a business with a strong customer base across the EU. Unfortunately his fellow citizens vote unexpectedly to leave the EU, thereby wrecking his business. For the sake of argument, let's call it Brexit.

Has he been unlucky as the situation evolved beyond his control?
Has he been remiss in not working hard enough and perhaps failing to take responsibility?

Perhaps he could look to find ways to adapt his business to the new circumstances, thereby taking back responsibility and try to regain some control of his destiny?
Or perhaps he could do the same as some others have done, join a cycle forum and go on and drip like a septic arsehole how bad the situation is?
What would you do?

rick_chasey

https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2018/04/03/ ... etirement/

Decent bit here.

US figures, but relevant to the thread.

Some cursory reading on either of those topics would explain why it is “retrograde” to shame any family struggling to achieve economic security.

The real cost of raising a child has climbed 16 per cent since 1960, according to the USDA. And that figure excludes the cost of higher education -- essentially a necessity for parents who want to ensure some basic level of quality of life for their children -- the real price of which has more than doubled at public four-year institutions since 1987, according to the College Board.

rjsterry

Surrey Commuter wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Believing in luck is akin to believing in an imaginary friend. It really winds me up when people refer to luck as it just feels like a way of absolving themselves of personal responsibility.

Rephrase it to events outwith your control. Good or bad.
Better?

Give me an example.

On here you will see many posts about punctures. Some people think they are lucky/unlucky and accept their fate. Many others will suggest ways to minimise punctures.

That piece of glass that you would normally see and avoid. However there is a potential near pass diverting your attention... Outwith your control but is it luck?

So you could shrug your shoulders and deem yourself unlucky or continue to seek ways of minimising punctures.

Use the word chance or uncertainty if you prefer. You seem deeply uncomfortable with the idea that you are not in complete control. There are things that you can do to improve the odds here and there, but there are some risks that you can't reasonably guard against - it's either not possible or the trade off to eliminate the risk is worse than the original risk. Just as you can wrongly assign some poor decision to 'bad luck' you can kid yourself that the beneficial outcomes are solely due to your agency.

Nope not deeply uncomfortable. First noticed it in sport with Arsene Wenger who every year says he was unlucky with injuries. If he believes he is unlucky then he will not look at other factors to solve his decade long problem. I then noticed a theme of sports people blaming luck for incidents of chance that if they acknowledged as such they could influence. I then read a book by Derren Brown in part of which he looked at “chance” and people’s perception of luck.

I don’t have some binary mantra by which I lead my life.

Neither do I, yet you seem to want to attack any suggestion that chance/uncertainty plays any part in how one's life plays out. There is better evidence than a Derren Brown book that this is the case. Football manager's excuses for ending the season at the bottom of the table are not evidence one way or the other.

TheBigBean

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Nope not deeply uncomfortable. First noticed it in sport with Arsene Wenger who every year says he was unlucky with injuries. If he believes he is unlucky then he will not look at other factors to solve his decade long problem. I then noticed a theme of sports people blaming luck for incidents of chance that if they acknowledged as such they could influence. I then read a book by Derren Brown in part of which he looked at “chance” and people’s perception of luck.

I don’t have some binary mantra by which I lead my life.

Most teams that win the premier league are lucky enough to have minimal injuries throughout the season. That they don't win the following season is further evidence of the luck involved.

A friend of mine would list obtaining British citizenship as one of his finest achievements in life. Some people are simply born with it.

surrey_commuter

rjsterry wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Believing in luck is akin to believing in an imaginary friend. It really winds me up when people refer to luck as it just feels like a way of absolving themselves of personal responsibility.

Rephrase it to events outwith your control. Good or bad.
Better?

Give me an example.

On here you will see many posts about punctures. Some people think they are lucky/unlucky and accept their fate. Many others will suggest ways to minimise punctures.

That piece of glass that you would normally see and avoid. However there is a potential near pass diverting your attention... Outwith your control but is it luck?

So you could shrug your shoulders and deem yourself unlucky or continue to seek ways of minimising punctures.

Use the word chance or uncertainty if you prefer. You seem deeply uncomfortable with the idea that you are not in complete control. There are things that you can do to improve the odds here and there, but there are some risks that you can't reasonably guard against - it's either not possible or the trade off to eliminate the risk is worse than the original risk. Just as you can wrongly assign some poor decision to 'bad luck' you can kid yourself that the beneficial outcomes are solely due to your agency.

Nope not deeply uncomfortable. First noticed it in sport with Arsene Wenger who every year says he was unlucky with injuries. If he believes he is unlucky then he will not look at other factors to solve his decade long problem. I then noticed a theme of sports people blaming luck for incidents of chance that if they acknowledged as such they could influence. I then read a book by Derren Brown in part of which he looked at “chance” and people’s perception of luck.

I don’t have some binary mantra by which I lead my life.

Neither do I, yet you seem to want to attack any suggestion that chance/uncertainty plays any part in how one's life plays out. There is better evidence than a Derren Brown book that this is the case. Football manager's excuses for ending the season at the bottom of the table are not evidence one way or the other.

my first post on the subject was that I would take a lot of persuading that luck was the primary determinant of earnings.

Of course I accept chance/uncertainty - what I don't accept is luck. I also don't believe it is possible to curse something by talking about it in advance.

surrey_commuter

TheBigBean wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Nope not deeply uncomfortable. First noticed it in sport with Arsene Wenger who every year says he was unlucky with injuries. If he believes he is unlucky then he will not look at other factors to solve his decade long problem. I then noticed a theme of sports people blaming luck for incidents of chance that if they acknowledged as such they could influence. I then read a book by Derren Brown in part of which he looked at “chance” and people’s perception of luck.

I don’t have some binary mantra by which I lead my life.

Most teams that win the premier league are lucky enough to have minimal injuries throughout the season. That they don't win the following season is further evidence of the luck involved.

A friend of mine would list obtaining British citizenship as one of his finest achievements in life. Some people are simply born with it.

In my world their relative lack of injuries is down to the fact that they aren't chasing game sin the 90th and their success allows the manager a degree of flexibility to rest players.

If Mr Wenger stopped blaming luck and had instead looked at what he was doing wrong in terms of recruitment, training, rehab then he may not have had an injury crisis every year for a decade.

Why lucky to be British? why wouldn't you see yourself as being unlucky not to be born a Gates/Buffett/Zuckerburg?

rick_chasey

So presumably if it's all about hard work, why do parents who can afford to send their kids to private schools?

After all, you don't choose your parents.

ballysmate

A new mantra by which to live my life.

Jez mon

Why the obsession with hard work. Much better to work smart surely?

rick_chasey

Jez mon wrote:

Why the obsession with hard work. Much better to work smart surely?

You don’t have control over how smart you are.

It’s luck.

surrey_commuter

Jez mon wrote:

Why the obsession with hard work. Much better to work smart surely?

do neither and buy a rabbits foot and four leaf clover whilst avoiding black cats, breaking mirrors, opening umbrellas indoors and walking under ladders.

And if something bad does happen to you then you are stuffed as these things always come in threes.

Anyway I have tempted fate once too often so am off to up all my insurance policies

rick_chasey

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Jez mon wrote:

Why the obsession with hard work. Much better to work smart surely?

do neither and buy a rabbits foot and four leaf clover whilst avoiding black cats, breaking mirrors, opening umbrellas indoors and walking under ladders.

And if something bad does happen to you then you are stuffed as these things always come in threes.

Anyway I have tempted fate once too often so am off to up all my insurance policies

Are you just ignoring the hereditary benefits/disadvantages?

After all, had you been to a poor Sudanese family in south Sudan, I reckon it's pretty unlikely you'd have earned a similar amount in your lifetime as you have.

Or do you have evidence to the contrary?

veronese68

Rick Chasey wrote:

After all, had you been to a poor Sudanese family in south Sudan, I reckon it's pretty unlikely you'd have earned a similar amount in your lifetime as you have.

Lucky to be born in an affluent country, or did they work really hard to persuade a stork to deliver them to a hard working family here rather than to some lazy good for nothings in Mogadishu?