50T Chainring fitted - Struggling to change rear cog :-(

daniel_b

Hi guys,

need your help please!

I attended my first outdoor track session yesterday, and the raised eyes at my stock 42\16 gearing did come to fruition, as I was spinning like a spinny thing, and had to bail one lap before the end of one of the drills.

I have a Langster with a Sugino Messenger crankset, that has a 130 PCD - looks to be easily removable, so am looking for a 50T replacement.

Then if needed I can tinker with the rear ratio at a later date.

Couple of questions:

Could I use something generic, like a Shimano 105 chainring, or is there something singlespeed specific - Width of chain perhaps?
I'm assuming, almost a certainty that I will require a new chain - never bought a chain for a SS before, do I literally just look for Single speed chain - and go for loads of links, and just chop it down as usual?

These are what I have found so far:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stronglight-130PCD-Type-S-5083-Series-Shimano-5-Arm-Road-Chainrings-50T/292164234368?epid=1389416024&hash=item4406586c80:g:mkAAAOSwz71ZUWxx

https://www.bikester.co.uk/shimano-105-fc-5750-chainrings-10-speed-black-761669.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxb-97oiC2gIVrLvtCh0ICgTEEAQYBCABEgLigPD_BwE&_cid=21_1_-1_9_34_761669_201607092657_pla&ef_id=WqeU5gAAAI_Ksza8:20180323085322:s

Will something like this do for a chain?

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-nexus-single-speed-chain/

Keen to try and get these ordered today, as want to get it fitted in time for Thursday evening.

arlowood

SJS Cycles is usually a good source of drivetrain components. However they only list one 50T 130BCD chain ring:-
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/search/?ter ... s&teeth=50

and at £30 you are cheaper going with the other options you've suggested. Main thing is going to be assuring delivery in time to meet your deadline

amrushton

Any 130 bcd will fit but what are you running as a chain - 3/32 or 1/8 (latter being a track standard) and chain rings are also sized accordingly.. The thinner chain is fine for the thinner ring. Are you going to run 50/16? Thats a big gear to push coming from 42/16 (82 inch from 69 inch).

daniel_b

Thankyou both - Google tells me it is a KMC Z-510HX, which is apparently 1/2" × 1/8"

That would seem to tally with the track standard line Amr.

Yep definitely planning to go for 50\16 - that was what everyone else was running, or some even bigger than that - the coach reckons you need something in the 90+ arena to race, so if I were to drop to a 14 on the rear that would be in the ballpark I think.
Big change I agree, but it's massively undergeared at present.

Urgency is realtive - if it's not there, I can hire a bike, but would prefer not to throw money away.

daniel_b

Just found this one - any better or worse (It's black, and cheaper) than the first one I posted?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stronglight-Dural-Black-Shimano-SRAM-130mm-BCD-Chainring-50-T-Tooth/273100294695?epid=4009905371&hash=item3f960bca27:g:H0AAAOSwnw9aEO0s

Is it a given I will need a new chain?

timothyw

Spa are usually where I go for chainrings, their own branded ones are excellent value for geared bikes.

They certainly seem to have what you need from Stronglight and Specialites TA:
https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m2b0s172p0/ ... ings-Track

timothyw

The Sugino messenger is apparently designed for 1/8 chain, so you probably want to go for that, although given you will need a new chain and are talking of replacing the back sprocket that consideration is less important if you want to go for the ebay 3/32 option.

daniel_b

TimothyW wrote:

The Sugino messenger is apparently designed for 1/8 chain, so you probably want to go for that, although given you will need a new chain and are talking of replacing the back sprocket that consideration is less important if you want to go for the ebay 3/32 option.

Tad more confused now - completely missed the 3\32 bit on that ebay listing, the other makes no mention - I am assuming it is the width of the cogs?

So are we saying that will not work with the existing chain, and potentially rear cog?
*I appreciate I need a new chain, but presumably still need to buy one that will mesh correctly with the current rear cog - which I may have no need to change.

ie I need a 1/8 chainring, or I buy the 3\32, and get a 3\32 chain, but then the rear cog could be a sticking point?
Sorry for the dim questions - I thought this might be more simple :shock:

N0bodyOfTheGoat

If you can get your Ebay basket over £20, you can get 20% off today, up to £75 discount. Might make chainring cheaper through Ebay.

daniel_b

NitrousOxide wrote:

If you can get your Ebay basket over £20, you can get 20% off today, up to £75 discount. Might make chainring cheaper through Ebay.

Thanks NO - that is useful - IF I can fathom out what I need by 6pm!

timothyw

Most track stuff is 1/8 size, which yes, means the chain is wider (than 3/32)

There is some cross compatibility - you can use 3/32 cogs and chainrings with 1/8 chain but it'll be noisier and more likely to slip.

Most BMX stuff is 1/8 too - might be easier searching for that (particularly for the chain).

amrushton

it is simple. You can run 3/32 rings/sprocket with 1/8 chain (some noise) but not 3/32 chain with 1/8 gears. NB Do not compare what everyone else has. if they are used to pushing big gears that's fine but everyone is different. You can be 'on top' of a gear ie it feels easier or 'pushing' or 'behind'. For some people pushing works and others find it's hard work. This is why you'll see people with a collection of sprockets as one up/down eg 15/16/17 can alter the feel and effort. Do you spin or grind basically (bit more to it obviously). Hubjub are good but you start to get serious about track/fixed on there.

daniel_b

Thanks all for the help - much appreciated - I have just ordered these for the princely sum of £22.51:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/292164234368
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KMC-B1-Silver-Chain-112-Links-Single-Speed-Fixed-Gear-Bicycle-Bike-1-2-x-1-8/131881613055?hash=item1eb4c1b6ff:g:vFQAAOSwRgJXjOA5

I think I could have got it for nearer £20, but as the spider is silver, decided to go for the silver cog too - also means less chance the missus will notice.......

Also discovered that bikes with a flip\flop hub (Like mine) tend to have 3\32 rear cogs as opposed to the 1\8" for some reason.

Found several posts saying that people are able to ride with little or no issue, bar an increase in noise, with a combination of the two - Decided to avoid a 3\32 chain, as it would them presumably limit me on rear replacement cog options, ie I would not be able to buy a 1\8" version, and they appear to be more prolific.

Fingers crossed they turn up in a few days - am on leave this week, so even Thursday lunchtime would be ok 8)

Will update with before and after pics, whether you want them or not

Totally get what you are saying about one size not fitting everyone - I've never ridden 50\16, so will be interesting to see how it compares.
All I know for sure is that 42\16 was too low for the relatively modest first week drills they had us doing, and it will only get more strenuous from there. A 50\16 should give me a good base, and if I can figure out how to change that rear cog, and acquire a small stock, then that will be a cheaper solution, to perhaps have my 16, and also add a 15 and 17 to the stock.
On a road bike I tend to spin more, cadence of 90 odd, but I am also able, and happy to grind to around 70 as and when required.

Pleased to have hopefully transformed this into a viable machine for £22! Should be a pretty easy spannering session as well.

amrushton

Rear cog is changed with a chain whip and a lockring spanner (if there is a lockring). All cogs are the same except Miche which use a carrier (but same threading). you can use a 1/8 and a 3/32 if you need to save money or just run 2 x 1/8 say a 16 and a 15 or 17 instead so you just flip the wheel

daniel_b

amrushton wrote:

Rear cog is changed with a chain whip and a lockring spanner

Is this the right one? I'm thinking not as it says headset and or BB.........

http://www.halfords.com/cycling/bike-maintenance/bike-tools/ice-toolz-bb-and-headset-lockring-tool


I'll take a pic of the rear of my Langster later and post up.

timothyw

That should do it, yep.

timothyw

Although to be sure you might want to look for a combined unit like this:
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/x-tools-perform ... chain-whip

daniel_b

Thanks Timothy, will check that out.

Both items already dispatched, so hopefully with me on Tuesday or Wednesday.

Dim question, I think the current chain on the 42 is 98 links. Is it too simplistic to think with a 50 it would go up by 8, or only 4, ie half the circumference?
Or is it simply a case of trying it to see?

amrushton

The larger the ring the more the wheel will be pulled towards the seat tube. 50 might be too much so a fresh chain might be required. half links are useful to get the chain length right. Everytime you go to a different sprocket your wheel will be back or forward depending on size of cog. Same with the chainring. Your chain went round 42 teeth now it needs to go around 50

amrushton

And in case you didn't know - a lockring tightens anti-clockwise, the sprocket in the usual way. Knowing this saves sweat/tears/blood/comedy moments

daniel_b

Thanks AMR - the lockring tool is in at Halfords, so I will collect tomorrow, but I am doubtful (Purely going by the description) it will be quite right, but easy enough to return if not - and not too urgent in the scheme of things - well unless a 50\16 is too much for me! :shock:

The chain arrived superfast, frustratingly the chainring has not arrived today as I suspected it would - hopefully tomorrow now.

I did not know that about the lockring, having only removed conventional cassettes before, which I think tighten\untighten in a conventional manner? Can't quite recall it now, as I just do it when I am there.

99.9% certain that the current chain can't possibly fit, as it is midway in the dropouts with the current config, so I think pretty much zero chance it will do the job.
I have stumbled upon a white 100 link BMX 1/8" chain I bought a year or so ago - only reason I bought it was one of those stoopid Planet X baskets, where the cost of the chain saved me postage, and although it cost £2, it saved me £4 if you get me.
I might try that one first, it's a KMC I think, same as the one I bought off of ebay.

I suspect as others have cautioned, a 50\16 is going to feel like a pretty BIG gear, but I'm curious to see how I get on with it, and how the bike behaves. Everyone else there has modern track bikes, and I rather like the old style design of this 09 Langster, so if my legs are up to it, I'd like it to be able to fulfill the role I need, and that if anything makes me more likely just to hang onto it, and not flog it and buy something new - something that will please my gf hugely!

amrushton

that tool should work. Get it in place and push down slowly. Some force may be needed. Remember to grease the threads of any cassettes/lockrings

daniel_b

Ok chaps, sorry for the delay.

Right, so tonight in a shorter time than expected, I managed to remove the 42 and the original chain (Which was going to be 3-4 links too short) and fit the 50T plus new chain.
For reasons best known to me, I decided to shelve the connector link, and simply popped a pin not all the way out, and then hooked it back, up, and drove it back into the new section of chain - seemed to work fine.

Does seem more rattly that it used to, but presuming that is due to the chain likely being wider than the original.



This tool, as suggested on this thread, did allow me to loosen off the nut that holds on the fixie side of the flip flop hub, although it has to be said, the cog did not look like it was easily going to come off, but as I am not in a position to change it right now, decided to leave well alone and re tightened it:

Fixie side:


My issue is, that I had a look at the free wheel side, and this is the part I will need to remove (They are ok for it to be there during accreditation) should I decide I want to try my hand at racing.

I didn't try anything with too much force, but somehow it didn't feel like it meshed with the gaps in the way it had done on the other side - stupidly I forgot to take a pic when I had the wheel off, so not sure if you can see enough to make sense of it:



Worst case I would whizz it down my lbs, but would rather be self sufficient.

pilot_pete

For reasons best known to me, I decided to shelve the connector link, and simply popped a pin not all the way out, and then hooked it back, up, and drove it back into the new section of chain - seemed to work fine.

:shock:

Are you sure that’s safe? Not sure on track chains but on every road chain I have fitted the manufacturers instruction specifically warn against doing this. A snapped chain could cause serious injury to you and/or others in a bunch sprint on the track...

PP

daniel_b

Pilot Pete wrote:

For reasons best known to me, I decided to shelve the connector link, and simply popped a pin not all the way out, and then hooked it back, up, and drove it back into the new section of chain - seemed to work fine.

:shock:

Are you sure that’s safe? Not sure on track chains but on every road chain I have fitted the manufacturers instruction specifically warn against doing this. A snapped chain could cause serious injury to you and/or others in a bunch sprint on the track...

PP

Oh balls, I wasn't aware it could cause an issue, have certainly done it on a commuter, and an out and out road bike before with no issues.
No chance of working out where I have joined it - plus point is that I do have to junk the brand new chain, it's only circa £6 for a new chain.

timbo_tim

Daniel to remove the freewheel it looks like you need a four prong freewheel tool, can get them in amazon, normally with the key words BMX or suntour. The only odd thing I’ve found is if the freewheel is sturmey archer the prongs didn’t quite fit so I had to to track down a sturmey archer specific one

Edited to add, these can be a real pain to unlock so if you can get an axle with track nut lock the tool in place it adds to the amount of purchase you can get on it.

daniel_b

timbo_tim wrote:

Daniel to remove the freewheel it looks like you need a four prong freewheel tool, can get them in amazon, normally with the key words BMX or suntour. The only odd thing I’ve found is if the freewheel is sturmey archer the prongs didn’t quite fit so I had to to track down a sturmey archer specific one

Edited to add, these can be a real pain to unlock so if you can get an axle with track nut lock the tool in place it adds to the amount of purchase you can get on it.

Thankyou TT - easy when you know the name!

Something like this I am assuming....

timbo_tim

That's exactly the one - it took me ages to work it out too - and room to get a washer / nut over the top to keep it in place!

imposter2.0

Daniel B wrote:

For reasons best known to me, I decided to shelve the connector link, and simply popped a pin not all the way out, and then hooked it back, up, and drove it back into the new section of chain - seemed to work fine.

That was a bit silly....

daniel_b

Imposter wrote:

Daniel B wrote:

For reasons best known to me, I decided to shelve the connector link, and simply popped a pin not all the way out, and then hooked it back, up, and drove it back into the new section of chain - seemed to work fine.

That was a bit silly....

Well you know, if you are going to do it, do it properly ;-)

Have ordered this, which is effectively the same as the pic I think\hope.

https://www.tredz.co.uk/.Birzman-BMX-Freewheel-Remover_86832.htm

Dumb question - once I remove the freewheel, will the wheel still fit normally, or do I need to get something to plug the space.......?

imposter2.0

Daniel B wrote:

Imposter wrote:

Daniel B wrote:

For reasons best known to me, I decided to shelve the connector link, and simply popped a pin not all the way out, and then hooked it back, up, and drove it back into the new section of chain - seemed to work fine.

That was a bit silly....

Well you know, if you are going to do it, do it properly ;-)

Have ordered this, which is effectively the same as the pic I think\hope.

https://www.tredz.co.uk/.Birzman-BMX-Freewheel-Remover_86832.htm

Dumb question - once I remove the freewheel, will the wheel still fit normally, or do I need to get something to plug the space.......?

You don't need to cover the hub threads, if that's what you mean. I'd also buy another chain and fit it properly. Chain failures at the velodrome rarely end well...