Is Goretex pants?

jerry3571

Hi
I am on my second Goretex jacket. The first wasn't too great. I decided to get a Proshell Jacket from Ebay for £85. I found the jacket was wetting out in the rain. I used the Nikwax wash in products and used the wash and the recoating wash after. I have tumble dried it twice now as recommended. I have now got Grangers spray and hope this may help. I tried the jacket yesterday on a dry day at 8c and after 35 miles I was quite damp. So, without wetting out, the Jacket did not breathe enough to keep me dry. Is Goretex a jacket for gentle walking only?
Have heard someone using Thompsons Water Seal (building product) on their jacket and the jacket didn't wet out.
Proshell is supposed to be quite a top end jacket new. :?

bungle73

Technical fabrics like Goretex just aren't capable of dealing with the amount of moisture (sweat) put out by a cyclist working hard. That's why the better cycling-specific water proof jackets tend to have vents or zips that you can open.

pblakeney

jerry3571 wrote:

HiIs Goretex a jacket for gentle walking only?

In simple terms, yes.
Which is why most cycling specific jackets claim to be breathable and water resistant.

lincolndave

I have one for Cycling , castelli idro, it keeps both the wind and rain out, and it’s breathable

Dorset_Boy

Goretex is a membrane, not a treatment so Jerry the Nikwax etc etc won't have done it any good at all.
It sounds like you are getting wet from the inside (sweat) not the outside (rain), so your layers are not breathable enough. However for a garment to be more breathable it will be water resistant rather than waterproof.

I have spent entire ski seasons in all conditions wearing Goretex garments in the past, and it is simply brilliant for lower intensity activity.

jerry3571

Thanks for the above. I'll have to wait for this Castelli jacket to get on ebay for cheap as I'm a not that well off. Also, I got a bit of a thing about black clothes and riding bikes as they are tricky to spot when I drive. High viz, me. Wish Castelli would only make clothes which are in bright colours rather than the Johnny Cash look.
If its raining then I guess evaporation will slow down but riding on Saturday where the roads were fairly dry and it was sunny, kind of proves that goretex can't keep up.

wongataa

No breathable membrane fabric like Goretex or the other similar products will be breathable enough to stop a good sweat getting the insides wet. This applies with walking too. There is a limit to how much moisture they let through and you have to remember how they work to see the limitations. If the relative humidity inside of the jacket is greater than the outside then moisture is let out. the bigger the difference in relative humidity the greater the water transfer.

bungle73

Dorset Boy wrote:

Goretex is a membrane, not a treatment so Jerry the Nikwax etc etc won't have done it any good at all.
It sounds like you are getting wet from the inside (sweat) not the outside (rain), so your layers are not breathable enough. However for a garment to be more breathable it will be water resistant rather than waterproof.

I have spent entire ski seasons in all conditions wearing Goretex garments in the past, and it is simply brilliant for lower intensity activity.

Goretex and the like clothing usually has a DWR coating applied during the manufacturing process which makes them waterproof. Over time this wears out and then the garment will start wetting out. It will then need to be re-proofed.

bungle73

https://www.gore-tex.com/support/restor ... repellency

tangled_metal

DWR just helps the membrane by affecting the water droplet hitting the outer such that it doesn't spread out on the surface but rolls off. It has nothing to do with waterproofing other than preventing the wetting out of the outer fabric surface which would reduce moisture passing through the membrane. Or something like that. Waterproofing comes from the membrane barrier.

Why are you wearing goretex waterproof when it's not raining? Windproof layers only with rainshell in pockets in case it really pours down. Cycling like walking in the hills should only be done wearing a hard shell layer when it's raining IMHO. You'll sweat too much. BTW in heavy rain while cycling you'll boil in the bag no matter what. Wet and warm is the best you can manage. Whether that's hardshell or softshell but accepting you might get wet through depends on what you prefer. However acceptance that wet and warm is second only to the near impossible dry and warm will possibly be your best solution

jerry3571

I done some reading where they say Goretex is good for Mountaineers as the high humidity inside the jacket has an opposite environment to the cold, low humidity experienced outside so good transfer of moisture is achievable. A thing they don't say is that with altitude comes thinner air and a lower muscular power output. I had this once in the Sierra Nevada in Spain where my cardiovascular was through the roof but my legs were under very little stress. (I was bloody cold as I'd not worn enough clothes and was trying to keep my body temperature up) So... Mountaineers must be working their cardio hard but going at such a low pace thanks to the lack of air. This could mean that the fabric doesn't need to do too much. Unlike normal cycling where we have lots of air to breathe and can work harder creating sweat. Also, wearing a waterproof jacket obviously means we're riding in rain or wet conditions so evaporation would be slow so wet on the outside means wet on the inside as there is little transference of moisture.
All in all, a bit crap and especially for a sweaty Betty like myself.

jerry3571

Tangled Metal wrote:

DWR just helps the membrane by affecting the water droplet hitting the outer such that it doesn't spread out on the surface but rolls off. It has nothing to do with waterproofing other than preventing the wetting out of the outer fabric surface which would reduce moisture passing through the membrane. Or something like that. Waterproofing comes from the membrane barrier.

Why are you wearing goretex waterproof when it's not raining? Windproof layers only with rainshell in pockets in case it really pours down. Cycling like walking in the hills should only be done wearing a hard shell layer when it's raining IMHO. You'll sweat too much. BTW in heavy rain while cycling you'll boil in the bag no matter what. Wet and warm is the best you can manage. Whether that's hardshell or softshell but accepting you might get wet through depends on what you prefer. However acceptance that wet and warm is second only to the near impossible dry and warm will possibly be your best solution

I was testing the goretex in dry weather to see how it breathed as the dwr might be knackered and jacket seem to wet out easily in spite of treatments. It's an old goretex. Yes, wet and warm seems to be the way. I sometimes ride when it's rained a lot as the turbo drives me slightly potty plus I ate way too much over Xmas so need to lose a few stones in weight.
I got a weird technique which could see me thrown out of any bike/clothing store where I see if a jacket is ok to ride in. I put the fabric to my mouth and blow through the material. If I slightly feel my warm breath on the other side, then that's adequate. If I don't feel my breath then the windproofing is too much and I'll sweat. Even woven nylon/polyester if woven too tight can restrict breathability.
I'm such a nerd where I've tested lots of my jackets by getting a small container of measured water, then stretching the material over and secured with an elastic band and then carefully put in to airing cupboard fro 24 hours. I got some accurate scales and weigh the water 24 hours later. Yes, the goretex was crap. No sht Sherlock. Decathlon 900 winter jacket wasn't much better.
I'm too scared of buying a new £200 jacket as its difficult to tell what's REALLY any good. All jackets should have RET or MVT ratings

Dorset_Boy

Bungle73 wrote:

Dorset Boy wrote:

Goretex is a membrane, not a treatment so Jerry the Nikwax etc etc won't have done it any good at all.
It sounds like you are getting wet from the inside (sweat) not the outside (rain), so your layers are not breathable enough. However for a garment to be more breathable it will be water resistant rather than waterproof.

I have spent entire ski seasons in all conditions wearing Goretex garments in the past, and it is simply brilliant for lower intensity activity.

Goretex and the like clothing usually has a DWR coating applied during the manufacturing process which makes them waterproof. Over time this wears out and then the garment will start wetting out. It will then need to be re-proofed.

No, the waterproofing comes from the Goretex membrane. The DWR just helps keep the fabric outer layer from getting wet. If the Goretex membrane is undamaged and seams have been sealed, you will not get wet inside from water penetration even if there is no DWR coating.

fenix

Bungle73 wrote:

Technical fabrics like Goretex just aren't capable of dealing with the amount of moisture (sweat) put out by a cyclist working hard. That's why the better cycling-specific water proof jackets tend to have vents or zips that you can open.

You should try the Castelli Idro rainjacket with the Gore ShakeDry technology. That really does seem to breathe well. But it's pricey.

lakesluddite

Lincolndave wrote:

I have one for Cycling , castelli idro, it keeps both the wind and rain out, and it’s breathable

It's the cycling Holy Grail isn't it? Dry from the outside AND inside. I've never had anything that does both - I think the thinner the better though, my Rapha Core waterproof does a fairly good job, I suspect because it's so light. Still dampens with prolonged effort.

This new single-layer Goretex fabric does seem to be getting some good reviews though. The Castelli Idro uses it, but the Gore version is exactly the same fabric, and can be had for around £150

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/gore-bike-wear- ... igodigital

Although when it comes to colour, it's strictly Henry Ford. I think black is the only colour they can manufacture from this fabric.

fenix

that's a big price drop on Wiggle. The idro was £154 or so from Sigma lately.

There is a slightly more colourful version out but I dont think the colours are the shakedry material.

I'd prefer it brighter - but if its rainy I'll have flashing LED's on the bike anyway = so its a bit of a compromise for safety.

tangled_metal

Hard shells are really only a last resort IMHO for those times when getting wet through rain is a worse prospect than getting wet through sweat.

By that I mean the cold rain is heavy enough to/ wet you through your cycling jerseys (usually softshell in my case in the cooler months) resulting in wet/cold. In those cases a hardshell is needed to cut the cold water out allowing you to at least stay warm.

I apply the same principle walking in the fells. I wear hardshells when I have to but prefer softshells until the rain picks up too much.

BTW I always reckon to rely more on venting cycling hardshells than rely on moisture transmission. Mind you I do the same with walking hardshells. BTW we don't have mountains in the UK so altitude really doesn't have an effect over here.

tangled_metal

Commuting is my biggest use for cycling hardshells. IME my state of the art climbing hardshell using start was until very recently the latest W. L. Gore fabric was only any good when I used the venting options courtesy of the pit zips (actually towards the front which suits climbing more but not as good for cycling). My much cheaper, lower spec fabric, commuting style jacket has better venting for cycling and being baggy I found preformed a lot better than the expensive and snug fitting climbing jacket (that was actually nearer a cycling jacket than.most walking hardshells).

So look to vent if you really must wear hardshells when cycling.

stueys

Agree with what everyone has said, Goretex is awesome but ultimately waterproof always comes at the expense of breathability. I use Arcteryx Goretex Pro stuff for skiing and general mountain type activities, it's great. Completely protects you and is durable. But it's all relatively low intensity stuff. It's why Castelli use Gore Windstopper in the Gabba, it's not waterproof but it's far more breathable than proper Goretex. If you had a true waterproof on you would be soaked in sweat which would somewhat defeat the waterproof point..

For high intensity rides I use a gabba or gabba type top, I'm expecting to get slightly damp but I'm trading that for breathability. If it's absolutely lashing down then I put a race cape on and slow down, then I'm trading intensity for staying dry.

The new Goretex shakedry gets rave reviews, I believe that does without the outer layer of the fabric, so it essentially becomes a 2-ply material. Makes it less durable but waterproof with significantly improved breathability.

joey54321

This has made me think.

i've got a 10 year old boil in a bag waterproof that I actually use quite a lot for warming up and easy commutes where the breathability isn't too much of an issue. I have just ordered a Gore Oxygen Active for £70 which looks good and a nice, bright colour. However, I am wondering if its worth just going 'all in' and spending the extra ££ to get the Gore ShakeDry One. More expensive, only comes in black...but how much better is it really..

As far as I can read it the difference between the two jackets is only the outer layer on the oxygen. The bit underneath is still Gore's 'Active' material, it's just this material is 'exposed' with the Gore One.

joey54321

This has made me think.

i've got a 10 year old boil in a bag waterproof that I actually use quite a lot for warming up and easy commutes where the breathability isn't too much of an issue. I have just ordered a Gore Oxygen Active for £70 which looks good and a nice, bright colour. However, I am wondering if its worth just going 'all in' and spending the extra ££ to get the Gore ShakeDry One. More expensive, only comes in black...but how much better is it really..

As far as I can read it the difference between the two jackets is only the outer layer on the oxygen. The bit underneath is still Gore's 'Active' material, it's just this material is 'exposed' with the Gore One.

Or maybe I get keep the Oxygen jacket and get a Rapha Waterproof gilet too...more choice but perhaps more versatility too.

PK1

I have tried Event, Gore Tex and Neoshell for cycling and they all wet out even when new. Although you get pretty wet inside they do keep you warm which is important. I also have found that Nikwax or Grangers never makes your hard shell jacket bead like a brand new jacket.

webboo

I have a Gortex shakedry jacket and the rain just runs off as it is supposed to. However I have only worn it once so far, wore it for about 2 and half hours and yes I was wet underneath. But then doing the same ride just in summer jersey I would have been as damp from sweat.
You work hard you sweat even if you were topless.

tangled_metal

The idea fabric designers have had for a few years is how to remove knee if the fabric layers to reduce what moisture has to get to. Either rejoice the outer or inner fabric layer to expose the membrane. Remove the inner they tended to put a textured dot pattern on the membrane to protect it. Not sure what the option that removes the outer layer does to protect the membrane.

The truth with the examples I read about when I was last interested is they don't really improve things enough to make a real difference. Perhaps this version is different but I.doubt it'll work well if you're a sweaty person on the bike.

Windstopper, as told to me by a guy who was outdoor retail assistant of the year at the time, was just the first version of Gore-tex in the early days that was found not to be actually waterproof. It leaked threatening to give Gore a bad rep so they withdrew it and developed an improved fabric which became the Gore-tex we know now. The original they sold as the early windproof fabrics such as windstopper. It's why taped windstopper is virtually waterproof.

If you sweat a lot even windstopper can cause moisture build up. There's certainly options fit walking such as softshells with denier weave fabrics rusty are almost wind proof. I bet some jerseys user similar, possibly with more windproof fronts for cycling. Something like a few jersey layers might help in all but heavy rain. As I said, warm and wet is an ok second choice.

jerry3571

Being wet for me is a bit if a no no as if I got stuck out on a cold, windy hill and I'm soaked then things get pretty cold, pretty quick. Not had hyperthermia yet in the uk and still not wanting it. Got close quite a few times. It is a shame as I'm sure many rain jackets have been sold where we assume there will be a benefit to us.

durhamwasp

I bought a Gore Bike Wear Element Active jacket last year, and spent five days cycling in the Pyrenees in September where it absolutely bucked it down. My jacket kept me dry every day, while others with me were soaked through.

greenamex2

I have a pair of Goretex walking boots that are still 100% waterproof.
They are over 20 years old. They will probably need replacing soon, because the soles/heels have worn out.

I also have a couple of Goretex cycle jackets and trousers. They haven't leaked once in 4000 miles.

Everything single other membrane based product I have ever used has started leaking within weeks of purchase...but has the same or worse "boil in the bag" issue.

No Goretex isn't pants. There is just a limit how breathable it can be whilst remaining waterproof.

Yeah, if it is 25 degrees outside and might rain, wouldn't bother with waterproofs. Just get wet.

webboo

jerry3571 wrote:

Being wet for me is a bit if a no no as if I got stuck out on a cold, windy hill and I'm soaked then things get pretty cold, pretty quick. Not had hyperthermia yet in the uk and still not wanting it. Got close quite a few times. It is a shame as I'm sure many rain jackets have been sold where we assume there will be a benefit to us.

If you are getting cold because what you are wearing under your Gortex jacket is wet with sweat, then you need to get some new base layers not ditch the Gortex.

tangled_metal

If you're getting wet through because of sweat then there's an argument for wearing less under your hardshell. The idea is to start cold so that when you're warmed up the clothing's insulation levels match what you need when cycling not when stationary.

If you are at risk of being stopped up a mountain then you'll need to carry some extra layers for then no matter what you choose to wear cycling. I think it is likely to be impossible to get your insulation levels right for high activity and stationary on top of a hill.

A lot of my experience of insulation comes from decades of hill experience in the UK's changeable climate. And I have had early stages of hypothermia but recognised it and got down to a lower altitude and into shelter before it got serious. So I've learnt from experience of harsh conditions a fair bit of what works for me.

The best advice I have is start cold. Seriously you need your clothing insulation to be right when you're riding. It's better to reduce sweat as much as possible rather than expecting the impossible with a fabric. I suppose anyone who has got on well with goretex has first got their insulation at pace sorted first.

pilot_pete

Had goretex since the earliest days when it was introduced to the Army. Fantastic when sat/ stood in a trench for hour after hour in rain. Absolutely hopeless for me when on a bike.

I sweat lots and all that happens is I get soaked from the inside. There is no fabric that can stop rain getting in yet transport moisture out fast enough.

My philosophy is to just accept that I am going to get wet, in winter the key is to try to keep the cold air out, so I just go for wind proof.

PP

cougie

Pp try the gore shakedry jackets...