Lighter weight, or disc brakes, bigger benefit?

naavt

ajdobbin wrote:

Just to give some background, ive been riding for just under 6 months with a tiagra, rim braked aluminium bike at around 8.8kg.

I live in Cornwall so am becoming quite adept with riding hills, although sometimes the descents can be quite hairy on narrow, dirty country lanes.

I weigh 72kg.

Im looking at a couple of Canyon models, the Ultimate CF SLX with Ultegra 6800, rim brakes and weighing in at 6.7kg (in their outlet)

or

The Canyon Ultimate CF SL 8.0 Disc with Ultegra 8000 weighing in at 7.5kg.

Which bike do you think im more likely to get more of a benefit from? The lighter rim brake model, or heavier disc one?

Be interested to hear your opinions.

Have yet to find a bike manufacturer who revels a complete build TRUE weight. You're planning to buy from the same manufacturer (Canyon), so the weight difference from one bike to another goes the same way... Off.

If weight is important to you, bear in mind that the outlet Ultimates are version 8.0. Now think like this:

If Canyon says their Ultimate 9.0 PRO, with Campag wheels and Record group weights 6400 gr in size M (which certainly is off by some margin - and without pedals), how come an Ultimate 8.0 with Ultegra only weights 300gr more?

You have a 320gr difference from Ultegra to Record. Bear in mind all the other components!

You mention your weight but not your height. If you are a fit guy, with 72kg you are probably around 1,80. If you are that tall, you will probably need an L frame, so more weight on top of that.

Of course you are adding weight on both bikes, be it rim or disc, but again, if weight is your thing I'll advise you to not trust in manufacturers weight claims, more if you are comparing 2 different manufacturers, which is not the case.

Test drive them both would be ideal for you to decide. If not, go with the one you like more. For me, rims. But I live in a sunny country and only ride indoors when raining. You can be a different kind of guy.

mrb123

Personally I'd go for the disc one as you're getting new Ultegra.
Or save up for the CF SLX disc.
Or get the new Rose XLite disc instead so I could choose to have a compact rather then the semi-compacts that Canyon put on all their bikes now.

bendertherobot

Well, another way to look at it is this. The SLX frameset is £2199. The wheels have an RRP of £1200.

The bike is £2,429.

That's a hell of a saving..........

on-yer-bike

Disc brakes are for nancy boys.

ajdobbin

naavt wrote:

ajdobbin wrote:

Just to give some background, ive been riding for just under 6 months with a tiagra, rim braked aluminium bike at around 8.8kg.

I live in Cornwall so am becoming quite adept with riding hills, although sometimes the descents can be quite hairy on narrow, dirty country lanes.

I weigh 72kg.

Im looking at a couple of Canyon models, the Ultimate CF SLX with Ultegra 6800, rim brakes and weighing in at 6.7kg (in their outlet)

or

The Canyon Ultimate CF SL 8.0 Disc with Ultegra 8000 weighing in at 7.5kg.

Which bike do you think im more likely to get more of a benefit from? The lighter rim brake model, or heavier disc one?

Be interested to hear your opinions.

You mention your weight but not your height. If you are a fit guy, with 72kg you are probably around 1,80. If you are that tall, you will probably need an L frame, so more weight on top of that.

Test drive them both would be ideal for you to decide. If not, go with the one you like more. For me, rims. But I live in a sunny country and only ride indoors when raining. You can be a different kind of guy.

Pretty close yeah (184cm) so you’re right in that i’ll be looking at L. As it’s Canyon, a test ride is unfortunately not an option (well, would be a pricey option, that included flights to Germany...)

Maybe i’ll try to find another bike with similar geometry in the shops near to me, just to give me a very rough idea.

Aesthetically they look pretty much identical, apart from the wheels (the tiny bits of yellow on the SLX Mavic wheels look nice against the black) but that’s not enough to sway my decision one way or the other.

I wish I lived in a sunny country, but saying that hopefully the worst of winter is almost behind us in the UK! The thought of the weather improving during the coming months is making me think rim brakes, but thinking longer term I’m gonna be riding in many more winters to come so disc brakes (and the newer Ultegra) might just be influencing my choice now.

And financially this will be my only bike purchase for a loooooong time so want to get it right!
It’s a tough decision!

ajdobbin

bendertherobot wrote:

Well, another way to look at it is this. The SLX frameset is £2199. The wheels have an RRP of £1200.

The bike is £2,429.

That's a hell of a saving..........

Originally being from the north of england im all up for saving money! And when you put it that way it does seem a pretty good deal.

milemuncher1

Adding lightness has no detrimental effect re: complexity.

StillGoing

ajdobbin wrote:

Just to give some background, ive been riding for just under 6 months with a tiagra, rim braked aluminium bike at around 8.8kg.

I live in Cornwall so am becoming quite adept with riding hills, although sometimes the descents can be quite hairy on narrow, dirty country lanes.
.

With dirty road surfaces, why would you want any perceived additional braking power? More chance for a front end lock up and wash out. I'd go Exalith rims and the lighter bike.

yiannism

philthy3 wrote:

ajdobbin wrote:

Just to give some background, ive been riding for just under 6 months with a tiagra, rim braked aluminium bike at around 8.8kg.

I live in Cornwall so am becoming quite adept with riding hills, although sometimes the descents can be quite hairy on narrow, dirty country lanes.
.

With dirty road surfaces, why would you want any perceived additional braking power? More chance for a front end lock up and wash out. I'd go Exalith rims and the lighter bike.

LoL man! i guess that the MTBers are idiots too since they use disc brakes.

The only negatives that disc brake have is the weight penalty and the price. Nothing else.

StillGoing

YiannisM wrote:

philthy3 wrote:

ajdobbin wrote:

Just to give some background, ive been riding for just under 6 months with a tiagra, rim braked aluminium bike at around 8.8kg.

I live in Cornwall so am becoming quite adept with riding hills, although sometimes the descents can be quite hairy on narrow, dirty country lanes.
.

With dirty road surfaces, why would you want any perceived additional braking power? More chance for a front end lock up and wash out. I'd go Exalith rims and the lighter bike.

LoL man! i guess that the MTBers are idiots too since they use disc brakes.

The only negatives that disc brake have is the weight penalty and the price. Nothing else.

Well lets consider that we roadies use slicks and not treaded tyres, that we ride on concrete/tarmac which is a teeny weeny bit harder than mud and the OP is already stating that their descending is iffy on dirty surfaces.

naavt

YiannisM wrote:

philthy3 wrote:

ajdobbin wrote:

Just to give some background, ive been riding for just under 6 months with a tiagra, rim braked aluminium bike at around 8.8kg.

I live in Cornwall so am becoming quite adept with riding hills, although sometimes the descents can be quite hairy on narrow, dirty country lanes.
.

With dirty road surfaces, why would you want any perceived additional braking power? More chance for a front end lock up and wash out. I'd go Exalith rims and the lighter bike.

LoL man! i guess that the MTBers are idiots too since they use disc brakes.

The only negatives that disc brake have is the weight penalty and the price. Nothing else.

Mountain Biking is also about skiding and that’s an all different world from road riding.
I’m trying to figure out what’s the correlation between these 2 very different kinds of riding picking your exemple on discs benefits, but I’m having some difficulty getting there, much due to what Philthy3 just wrote above.

I think discs makes sense on gravel bikes and that’s the reason why (unless you’re a roadie like Brumotti of course)

whyamihere

Mountain biking is not about skidding - If you're skidding when braking you're doing it wrong. Discs are generally about better modulation (note: I have not ridden Exalith rims so cannot directly compare, and am comparing against normal alu rims) rather than outright power, allowing you to brake harder without locking up, making them better on crappy road surfaces.

w00dster

Agreed MTB'ing is about control and that means not skidding....that being said i do really really enjoy skidding, great fun!

kirkee

ajdobbin wrote:

Just to give some background, ive been riding for just under 6 months with a tiagra, rim braked aluminium bike at around 8.8kg.

I live in Cornwall so am becoming quite adept with riding hills, although sometimes the descents can be quite hairy on narrow, dirty country lanes.

I weigh 72kg.

Im looking at a couple of Canyon models, the Ultimate CF SLX with Ultegra 6800, rim brakes and weighing in at 6.7kg (in their outle

Which bike do you think im more likely to get more of a benefit from? The lighter rim brake model, or heavier disc one?

Be interested to hear your opinions.

As some posts have alluded to skidding I reiterate my last reply. If you learn to shift your body weight around to the rear etc when braking, this will greatly enhance your existing rim brakes performance on the current bike. As your not very experienced you may not fully benifit from a new bike anyway? Put a bit more time in and get more riding done. Save yourself a bit of bike choosing stress and money. Well at least until you really, absolutely have to get that new bike!

mamba80

i have just ridden 60 m around the lanes and roads of Cornwall and West Devon and i m still alive, how the fcuk did i menage this feat without disc's who knows, one of lives great mystery's

mtb ing and road riding styles are not comparable.

Personally, i d get the bike that you can fit 32mm tires or bigger on because the roads are fcuking shitte, long sections are just getting washed away, its no longer about big pot holes any more.

ajdobbin

kirkee wrote:

As some posts have alluded to skidding I reiterate my last reply. If you learn to shift your body weight around to the rear etc when braking, this will greatly enhance your existing rim brakes performance on the current bike. As your not very experienced you may not fully benifit from a new bike anyway? Put a bit more time in and get more riding done. Save yourself a bit of bike choosing stress and money. Well at least until you really, absolutely have to get that new bike!

I really have to get a new bike! Seriously though, I respect your opinion as you clearly have a lot more experience than me, but I’ve really bitten the bug when it come to road biking.

The bikes actually in for a proper service next week (winter has given it a bit of a beating) so i’ll see how it’s riding after that and factor that in to my decision.

ajdobbin

mamba80 wrote:

i have just ridden 60 m around the lanes and roads of Cornwall and West Devon and i m still alive, how the fcuk did i menage this feat without disc's who knows, one of lives great mystery's

mtb ing and road riding styles are not comparable.

Personally, i d get the bike that you can fit 32mm tires or bigger on because the roads are fcuking shitte, long sections are just getting washed away, its no longer about big pot holes any more.

Just got back from a 60+ ride myself, up around Bodmin Moor. You’re right, the state of some of the roads, even the B roads are getting beyond a joke.

Keeps things ‘interesting’ I suppose.....

bendertherobot

What's your current bike?

kirkee

ajdobbin wrote:

kirkee wrote:

As some posts have alluded to skidding I reiterate my last reply. If you learn to shift your body weight around to the rear etc when braking, this will greatly enhance your existing rim brakes performance on the current bike. As your not very experienced you may not fully benifit from a new bike anyway? Put a bit more time in and get more riding done. Save yourself a bit of bike choosing stress and money. Well at least until you really, absolutely have to get that new bike!

I really have to get a new bike! Seriously though, I respect your opinion as you clearly have a lot more experience than me, but I’ve really bitten the bug when it come to road biking.

The bikes actually in for a proper service next week (winter has given it a bit of a beating) so i’ll see how it’s riding after that and factor that in to my decision.

N plus 1 rules! Discs brake bike with thru axles probably the way to go I'd say. The Giant TCRs look nice

dabber

mamba80 wrote:

i have just ridden 60 m around the lanes and roads of Cornwall and West Devon and i m still alive, how the fcuk did i menage this feat without disc's who knows, one of lives great mystery's

mtb ing and road riding styles are not comparable.

Personally, i d get the bike that you can fit 32mm tires or bigger on because the roads are fcuking shitte, long sections are just getting washed away, its no longer about big pot holes any more.

Although straying away from the disc brake debate but picking up on your state of the roads point. I've just bought a Specialized Roubaix Comp (2018 version) for that very reason. It performs just great.. not 32mm but only 28mm tyres but with the Specialized Future Shock... what a difference it makes on the disappearing road surfaces around here.Sections of road that I tried to avoid if at all possible it handles with reasonable comfort.

I can't comment much on the disc brake debate as I haven't really had to use the disc brakes in anger but my initial impression is they're just great. I've still got my Wilier Cento Uno and will no doubt ride that when weather improves and when I'm back on decent roads in France and got a load of climbing to do.

joebristol

Most reviews suggests hydraulic discs have better modulation and feel then rim brakes so you’re less likely to lock up.

sloppyschleckonds

Joebristol wrote:

Most reviews suggests hydraulic discs have better modulation and feel then rim brakes so you’re less likely to lock up.

Oh shut up

yiannism

Having more braking power is never bad, only idiots can make that statement. I cant really see any real argument against them other than the purists, and i drive a rim brake bike. Going home safe is way more important than go home a few sec faster( and that is debatable)

milemuncher1

YiannisM wrote:

Having more braking power is never bad, only idiots can make that statement. I cant really see any real argument against them other than the purists, and i drive a rim brake bike. Going home safe is way more important than go home a few sec faster( and that is debatable)

My only real problem with discs on road bikes, is the disparity in braking performance over rims. If it’s a discipline like MTB, or the sort of ride you’d find a Hybrid with discs on, I can’t argue that they are brilliant. I wouldn’t want to be with a bunch of clueless choppers, on road bikes, some on disc equipped road bikes, and some on rim brake equipped bikes. It’s asking for trouble.

bondurant

If you're that worried, don't ride with them.

milemuncher1

Bondurant wrote:

If you're that worried, don't ride with them.

Given the choice, I wouldn’t, however, if it ain’t my circus, and they ain’t my monkeys, it gets a bit irritating.

naavt

Curious to see that most of the folks who stand by discs throw the safety card on board, stating how much more secure they are compared with rim brakes.

Nonetheless, it’s also curious (and I’m being ironic here), that UCI is keeping discs out from their events for that same exact reason: safety!

I’m willing to compare braking distances with the next disc guy, in the dry (I preserve my integrity so I’ll discard this kind of game in wet weather). I’ve done it a few times with folks that converted to discs. I’m no Armstrong and no better than the next guy, but any of the folks who ride with me couldn’t stop consistently before me, and I can even say that 2 times out of 3 I’ve stopped before them.

I’m probably on the best rim brakes ever made (so it has been told by a recent tester on the Colnago C64). Campagnolo’s Record Direct Mount brakes, and that certainly plays a part in the equation, but I suspect that even with a lesser rim brake, chances of getting a leg ripped off by it in a crash, is inexistent.

Can you, disc guys, say the same of a burning rotor after that great descent?

yiannism

naavt wrote:

Curious to see that most of the folks who stand by discs throw the safety card on board, stating how much more secure they are compared with rim brakes.

Nonetheless, it’s also curious (and I’m being ironic here), that UCI is keeping discs out from their events for that same exact reason: safety!

I’m willing to compare braking distances with the next disc guy, in the dry (I preserve my integrity so I’ll discard this kind of game in wet weather). I’ve done it a few times with folks that converted to discs. I’m no Armstrong and no better than the next guy, but any of the folks who ride with me couldn’t stop consistently before me, and I can even say that 2 times out of 3 I’ve stopped before them.

I’m probably on the best rim brakes ever made (so it has been told by a recent tester on the Colnago C64). Campagnolo’s Record Direct Mount brakes, and that certainly plays a part in the equation, but I suspect that even with a lesser rim brake, chances of getting a leg ripped off by it in a crash, is inexistent.

Can you, disc guys, say the same of a burning rotor after that great descent?

If you debate about the stopping power of the disc brakes i dont really have something to tell you, and no you cant keep the wet out of the debate since most of the cyclists here are British, and they ride quite often in the rain.

You play the heat card, but that one actually is one of the biggest shortcomings of the rim brakes. Have you ever touched the rim after a long descent? you can fry eggs on it, and as all we know heat makes metals softer. That heat is going also on tires with bigger chance for flat.

Now as far as about UCI, half truth is not a truth. They still ban them (not for long though, soon will change that), not cuz of the riders safety, but after of a multiple crash an other rider got injured from others bike disc.

By the way why its not a problem with the cyclocross races but it is with the road bikes?

bendertherobot

Yep. Thread went the way it always would. Disc v rim rather than Bike X v Bike Y.

veronese68

bendertherobot wrote:

Yep. Thread went the way it always would. Disc v rim rather than Bike X v Bike Y.

Or rider X v rider Y.
So much bollox spouted. I know what I like and I’m happy with that.