Race wheel upgrade - Reynolds Assault v Zipp 404 FC (or others)

pedalbasher

I've had a set of Reynolds Assault SLGs for about 4 years and I've put c.10,000 miles on them. They've been great, never really missed a beat. Trued once and rear bearings needed sorting a year ago but otherwise no issues. No complaints whatsoever.

Since then, my focus has changed more from all-round riding with mates to road race specific. I race pretty much every weekend at Regional A / National B level (I'm a 2nd cat) and I'm hoping to have a really strong season. Training is dialled in so I'm looking at finding marginal gains in the quest for some good results this year.

Most of my racing is flat or rolling, and I'm very light (60kg) with good sustained power, so I get my results pretty much exclusively from breakaways where aero is key. I've worked on my flexibility, position, and a few other equipment choices and now feel it's probably time to treat myself to some deeper, more aero wheels.

Looking at the latest 404 Firecrests but open to other ideas. Not bothered about the weight gain because I have some light box rims for hill climbs, trips to the mountains etc.

I am guessing the move from the Assaults to 404s (or similar) will give me a handful of watts at most (although that could be important in a long break scenario). Anyone have any thoughts on this? Even if the gain is marginal, it's probably something I'll do because at the end of the day I'd also like some shiny new wheels But it would be interesting to hear if anyone has experience riding the two wheelsets and/or has a view on what sort of performance gain a move to the 404s might bring.

The other option: I already have an 808 FC front on my TT bike. I could potentially get a matching rear and race 808s if I'm careful about the wind forecast on race day! Or is that just plain stupid at my weight? I've never ridden a pair of 808s, although I do ride an 808/disc combo on my TT bike even when it's windy, and I haven't been blown into a hedge yet.

Oh and budget is £1400 max (the price I've seen the 404s).

Thanks

ryan_w-2

Loved my 404s (107kg rider at one point).

Upgraded to Enve 4.5s, but it wasn’t an upgrade.

Zipps are superior in crosswinds.

pedalbasher

Thanks. Any thoughts on aero gains (Reynolds 38mm to 404s 58mm rim)?

ryan_w-2

pedalbasher wrote:

Thanks. Any thoughts on aero gains (Reynolds 38mm to 404s 58mm rim)?

Absolutely no idea, but the Zipps will obviously be more aero.

I really rated mine, the NSWs can be found online for around £1,400 if you look hard enough.

cycleclinic

Zipp hubs are truely awful in comparison to many other much cheaper hubs (i.e so so reliability for alot of money) the rims are decent but so are many chinese rims. There is no magic to carbon fibre and putting a well known name on it does not change that.

Zipp and ENVE trade on there name without actually having a better product. I have repaired far too many Zipp wheels and for the money they cost they should not go wrong as often as they do.

pedalbasher

thecycleclinic wrote:

Zipp hubs are truely awful in comparison to many other much cheaper hubs (i.e so so reliability for alot of money) the rims are decent but so are many chinese rims. There is no magic to carbon fibre and putting a well known name on it does not change that.

Zipp and ENVE trade on there name without actually having a better product. I have repaired far too many Zipp wheels and for the money they cost they should not go wrong as often as they do.

Thanks. I'm sure you know your stuff / years in the industry etc so appreciate the comments... that said, how do they get away with it if they're THAT bad?

Any other suggestions? I decided against buying a new bike for my season so I'm happy to invest in some upgrades if they'll give me a tangible gain. My thinking is that I can sell the Assaults for a good amount and put that towards the new deeper wheels (before I run into inevitable maintenance costs with the Assaults now they're 4 years old). But maybe there's very little in it and I should just run them into the ground?

The other option is to run an 808 setup for racing on non-windy days... I already have a front 808 so I could just buy a rear, and probably keep the Assaults for windier days. I must admit I'm a bit nervous about racing 808s at 60kg though...

Thanks again

joey54321

Never used them but read lots of good reviews when I was looking:

http://www.wheelsmith.co.uk/powertap-c10at/dimpled-45

pedalbasher

joey54321 wrote:

Never used them but read lots of good reviews when I was looking:

http://www.wheelsmith.co.uk/powertap-c10at/dimpled-45

These look interesting. But it seems the value depends on the quality of the Wheelsmith hub? As soon as you select a 240 hub for example, or the CK hub (obviously), the price rockets to on par with Zipp 404s.

lostboysaint

And will be more reliable.

Are you suggesting that a Zipp badge is worth quite so much premium then?

pedalbasher

lostboysaint wrote:

And will be more reliable.

Are you suggesting that a Zipp badge is worth quite so much premium then?

Is this a question to me? I don't know the answer, hence the post / questions!

undapressure

pedalbasher wrote:

Thanks. Any thoughts on aero gains (Reynolds 38mm to 404s 58mm rim)?

Slight aero gain but pretty much imperceptible. I’ve had Zipp 303, 404, DT Dicut 65 but the set I always go for are the Campag Bora 35. No slower than the deep sections but much more responsive on rolling to hilly courses, more predictable handling especially in gusty conditions and slightly more comfortable over long distances.

Just look at the wheelset Thomas de Gendt uses, who could argue with the breakaway king

dstev55

pedalbasher wrote:

joey54321 wrote:

Never used them but read lots of good reviews when I was looking:

http://www.wheelsmith.co.uk/powertap-c10at/dimpled-45

These look interesting. But it seems the value depends on the quality of the Wheelsmith hub? As soon as you select a 240 hub for example, or the CK hub (obviously), the price rockets to on par with Zipp 404s.

I had a set of these on Dura Ace hubs for a few months until I sold them when I changed from Shimano to Campag. I don't know if it was just the new wheel effect but they felt rapid on the flat. I remember leading a group for about 3 miles sat at around 28mph consistently. And I'm not that strong a rider at all. It just felt like I could hold a good speed much easier than I could on my previous wheels.

I've since changed my bike (both none aero) that has Vision Metron 40's and I've never had that same feeling again.

cycleclinic

you had a strong day it may not have been the wheels.

I find my deep section very responsive if I put enough effort in. Deeper rims tend to make stiffer wheels which can be of benefit when climbing. In short if the BORA's "climb" better it is not down to the rim depth. It maybe they are stiffer than the other wheels due large NDS rear bracing angle Campagnolo have on there hubs. Wheels are the sum of there parts the problem is most folk dont know how to add when it comes to wheels and therefore attribute characteristics to specifications that may not be relevant.

Zipp hubs are not hopeless it just that a cheap bitex hub is a better hub is many ways.

Just looked up the price for a rear Zipp404 and FFS nearly £1000! The rim is 16.25mm internal width which is narrow (and the rest of the spec is not aw inspriring) and the weight is 935g which is heavier than I thought. Yes the wheelsmith wheels will be fine. So would mine. both are cheaper and both hubs we use will be as reliable if not more so than the zipps. I know the miche hub I use will manage 10000+ miles from a set of bearings. In fact you buy a pair of either wheels for less than one Zipp and I can guarantee if you rode all three back to back you would have trouble telling the difference.

The renoylds wheels are more resonably priced but shallower. The rims profile is like the Zipps or the Wheelsmith wheels or the ones I build. That is the shape that is stable in cross winds. Renoylds give it a name the SLG technology. It is not there idea though it was the universes. It is physics bluntly and the u shaped rim is used by many including wheelsmith and me because it works very well.

So it comes down to can you see past reviews in which case you can have wheels that perform like the bigger names for less or are you going to pay for a name. Wheels are the sum of there parts nothing more nothing less (so long as they are built properly). there is no magic.

dstev55

thecycleclinic wrote:

you had a strong day it may not have been the wheels.

Fair point but in the couple of months I owned them I felt strong on the flats. Maybe a coincidence, but maybe not.

cycleclinic

you can feel good for a couple of months and then it leaves. you felt my strongest a bout three ago during summer. I have never managed to beat the times I set on a few training loops I do. Faulty logic to attribute that to the wheels. your power requirments in group are 1/3 of that at the head of the group. wheels cannot make that up.

dstev55

thecycleclinic wrote:

you can feel good for a couple of months and then it leaves. you felt my strongest a bout three ago during summer. I have never managed to beat the times I set on a few training loops I do. Faulty logic to attribute that to the wheels. your power requirments in group are 1/3 of that at the head of the group. wheels cannot make that up.

I think you're doing the benefits of a good set of wheels a bit of a disservice in all honesty, which is a bit strange considering it is your business.

I'm not saying they are the magic ingredient to turn an average rider in to a strong one, but you're pretty much saying there is no benefit to a good set of aero wheels which can't be right.

Not sure of the connection between me being at the head of a group or within and my comments either :?:

cycleclinic

that not what I said at all. aero wheels make a difference but they will not allow you to go on the front of the group at 28 mph when you might normally hide in the bunch. the difference in power required is of the order of 100W and aero wheels vs less aero wheels dont make that kind of difference.

I am a realist and I dont want people thinking a wheel can do more than it actually can. A Zipp404 or other wheels with similar rim profile for example vs a 32 spoke count mavic OP wheelset may give the rider 20-30W @30 mph. At 30mph I am knocking out close to 400W. If i am in a bunch I will be producing 300W or less. So the aero wheels help make that power gap smaller but they will not transform a wheelsucker into an engine.

I am not having a go at you just painting reality as it actually is. you had a good two months and tried to link that to the wheels you had. I am saying you had a good two months and on other wheels you would have had a good two months.

I look at it this way aero wheels are great for TT's. They give you some free time so they work that is beyond dispute, in fact the reduction in drag can be measured. In other types of ride the time saving is more difficult to qunatify it there though. The total drag reduction maybe 5% vs non aero wheels like mavic OP's but since most modern wheels are more aero than OP's 32 spokes then that adavnatge will be smaller in many cases alot smaller.

i have had fast rides on my aero wheels and my non aero wheels. What the difference here? Sometimes I can ride like I sat on a wasp and then days like this morning my legs feel flatter than flat and aero wheels would not have helped. There are many variables and pinning a good day/month to one component is simply wrong.

This is the difference in approach to how things feel and quantifying an advantage. Your confusing the two.

sloppyschleckonds

dstev55 wrote:

I remember leading a group for about 3 miles sat at around 28mph consistently. And I'm not that strong a rider at all. It just felt like I could hold a good speed much easier than I could on my previous wheels.

I've since changed my bike (both none aero) that has Vision Metron 40's and I've never had that same feeling again.

Tailwind?

ryan_w-2

Old Zipp hubs were crap, however, my 2016s 404s were faultless for 18 months up until the day I sold them.

Only prebuilt (not custom) top end wheels I’d buy are Zipp, Enve and DT Swiss.

dstev55

thecycleclinic wrote:

that not what I said at all. aero wheels make a difference but they will not allow you to go on the front of the group at 28 mph when you might normally hide in the bunch. the difference in power required is of the order of 100W and aero wheels vs less aero wheels dont make that kind of difference.

I am a realist and I dont want people thinking a wheel can do more than it actually can. A Zipp404 or other wheels with similar rim profile for example vs a 32 spoke count mavic OP wheelset may give the rider 20-30W @30 mph. At 30mph I am knocking out close to 400W. If i am in a bunch I will be producing 300W or less. So the aero wheels help make that power gap smaller but they will not transform a wheelsucker into an engine.

I am not having a go at you just painting reality as it actually is. you had a good two months and tried to link that to the wheels you had. I am saying you had a good two months and on other wheels you would have had a good two months.

I look at it this way aero wheels are great for TT's. They give you some free time so they work that is beyond dispute, in fact the reduction in drag can be measured. In other types of ride the time saving is more difficult to qunatify it there though. The total drag reduction maybe 5% vs non aero wheels like mavic OP's but since most modern wheels are more aero than OP's 32 spokes then that adavnatge will be smaller in many cases alot smaller.

i have had fast rides on my aero wheels and my non aero wheels. What the difference here? Sometimes I can ride like I sat on a wasp and then days like this morning my legs feel flatter than flat and aero wheels would not have helped. There are many variables and pinning a good day/month to one component is simply wrong.

This is the difference in approach to how things feel and quantifying an advantage. Your confusing the two.

When did I say I usually hide in the bunch? It's a regular training route my group do and I've been on the front of that stretch numerous times.

And yes there could have been a tailwind, can't remember to be honest, there certainly wouldn't have been a headwind at that speed!

Look - ultimately I've got no data to back anything up. I'm just going on my own personal feeling and opinion. I'm sorry if that doesn't tally up with everyone else's opinions or thoughts on why I was riding strong but thats the way it is.

I will however change any advice I may have already given - save your money and buy a £100 set of wheels, apparently you won't get any benefit!

ryan_w-2

You seem to have dropped your tampon dstev55...

dstev55

Ryan_W wrote:

You seem to have dropped your tampon dstev55...

Grow up pal...

ryan_w-2

Don't blame me for you buying sh!t wheels.

cycleclinic

I was trying to explain what the wheels do and dont do using your example I was not however saying you hid in the bunch or was a wheelsucker. I dont even know your name. you have taken it personally why? I did not refer to you by your username did I. So assuming I was talking directly about you and how you ride was an assumption. I was using your example to give information about that kind of situation. Why is it I have to explain that? Do we all now have to disclaimers at the bottom of each post so offence is not caused. Really honest discussion is becoming difficult.

Again I have not said that aero wheels are not of benefit. The benefit is there but does not turn someone into an engine pulling the bunch along in a race. If you can do that you can just do that. Good wheels will just allow you to do a bit quicker or for a bit longer. Whether this means you stay in a chain gang or not is an open question. I would suggest it does not matter as your time on the front is short in a chaingang and then you are sheltering. If the chain gang is so fast that you are on the limit with non aero wheels then a set of aero wheel may delay your getting dropped point a by a little bit but they are unlikely to make the difference in staying in as it the surges/hills that do riders in that are on or near there limit. In a TT the difference is more real as your time for the course will be shorter there is no arguing about that.

dstev55

Ryan_W wrote:

Don't blame me for you buying sh!t wheels.

What the bloody hell are you on about?

dstev55

thecycleclinic wrote:

I was trying to explain what the wheels do and dont do using your example I was not however saying you hid in the bunch or was a wheelsucker. I dont even know your name. you have taken it personally why? I did not refer to you by your username did I. So assuming I was talking directly about you and how you ride was an assumption. I was using your example to give information about that kind of situation. Why is it I have to explain that? Do we all now have to disclaimers at the bottom of each post so offence is not caused. Really honest discussion is becoming difficult.

Again I have not said that aero wheels are not of benefit. The benefit is there but does not turn someone into an engine pulling the bunch along in a race. If you can do that you can just do that. Good wheels will just allow you to do a bit quicker or for a bit longer. Whether this means you stay in a chain gang or not is an open question. I would suggest it does not matter as your time on the front is short in a chaingang and then you are sheltering. If the chain gang is so fast that you are on the limit with non aero wheels then a set of aero wheel may delay your getting dropped point a by a little bit but they are unlikely to make the difference in staying in as it the surges/hills that do riders in that are on or near there limit. In a TT the difference is more real as your time for the course will be shorter there is no arguing about that.

Look I haven't taken anything personal or offence. I just don't think my point was considered. Just get the feeling that some of you guys "in the know" find it very easy to say it cant be this or it can't be that. I know how my bike felt with those wheels and in my opinion they were a fantastic upgrade and well worth the £1100 I spent on them (other than the fact I only had them for 2 months!).

On a slightly different note, they look awesome and I got loads of positive comments and a lot of people asked if they were Zipp.

pedalbasher

Enjoyed catching up on all that, just like watching Eastenders

So, ummmm, what's the conclusion? :?

dstev55

Buy whatever wheels you like the look of the most and don't ask on here

ryan_w-2

pedalbasher wrote:

So, ummmm, what's the conclusion? :?

Don’t buy Vision Metron 40s.

dstev55

Ryan_W wrote:

pedalbasher wrote:

So, ummmm, what's the conclusion? :?

Don’t buy Vision Metron 40s.

Or do. It's up to you. They're not bad wheels, I just didn't get that same sensation of "free speed" that I got with the Wheelsmith Aero Dimpled.

Ryan seems to have misinterpreted that I don't like them when in fact I only mentioned them to highlight how good I think the Wheelsmith wheels are. It's worth noting they are 3 years old and I haven't serviced the hubs since I've had the bike although I will be doing soon.

Anyway the Vision Metron 40s are a different model nowadays.

scott_w1987

Bora ultra 35s.