Over Under Workout Query

hypster

I thought I would try including an Over Under workout in my training. I've seen various workouts but the one I decided upon was one from GCN. This involved the following intervals:-

15 min warm up
(30 sec @ 110% FTP, 2 min @ 90% FTP) x 5
5 min recovery
Repeat the interval block
15 min cool down

I'm doing this on a turbo trainer on Zwift and I have a big floor fan although I still get very hot. I had no real problem hitting the Over intervals at 110% of FTP but after about 2-3 intervals I was struggling to maintain the Under interval at 90% FTP. My heart rate was close to my FTHR and I was finding it very difficult to recover.

By interval 4 and 5 I was holding about 80% FTP and recovering just enough to maintain that level. After the 5 minute recovery block it was pretty much the same story in the second block of intervals.

My query is should I just persevere at these effort levels, putting in as much effort as I can muster or should I modify the workout to make it slightly easier so I can maintain the target power levels e.g. less intervals?

Any advice would be appreciated.

burnthesheep

To paraphrase a book:

It's better to complete the entire workout than to compromise it too much just to finish.

I'd chalk that one up as having chosen the targets incorrectly that go around, and have another try later.

Make sure for over/under and power intervals you are well rested. Is it a smart trainer or a fluid? If you're doing it by speed (mph/kph) on a fluid, the fluid heats up and has higher resistance during an effort at higher speed. Meaning, that during your over under the start of the interval may be up to 20w easier than by the end of it.

I have had to change gears before during long intervals on my fluid because my power drifted enough during the effort from the fluid heating up.

If you're doing it by a power meter, the power is the power. Just be well rested, normally fed, and best fan/temp control you can get.

FWIW my over/under this week is supposed to be 100% of 8min ftp over and a little under 90% 8min ftp. 2min under, 1 over for 9 minutes total. 3 sets.

It can be brutal. But........if I've done the 100% value before for 8min, I can surely do 9min at 90% with a couple 1min efforts at 100%...........right???

Dave_P1

Stick with it, over / unders are brutal workouts. If needs be, perhaps doing 4 intervals rather than 5 and slowly build up

Midlands Grimpeur

IME do less intervals at the correct power (max 3 at your current level). You will quickly build fitness and your tolerance to the effort and you should find you will soon be able to increase the number of intervals as you get used to these sessions.

hypster

Thanks for the suggestions. It is a fluid trainer, a Kinetic Rock & Roll. I think I'll try sets of 4 at the same power levels and see how that goes.

Tom Dean

I look at these type of sessions as being about an accumulation across the block rather than nailing down the intensity for each interval. Bearing in mind you’re already doing the best you can in the ‘unders’ I reckon you will lose a bigger chunk of training stimulus by reducing the number of intervals.

cgfw201

can be an absolute horror session. I'd only do these in final stages of peaking for a specific goal, having done a lot of 20*2 or similar at constant power.

joey54321

I don't want to be a dick but "100% of 8min ftp over - 8 min ftp" isn't a thing.

To the OP, it might be useful looking at a Normalized power calculator or sticking the workout into something like TR workout creator to see if it is even doable, repeated efforts over FTP often look easier 'on paper' than they really are and you end up shooting for something that is not realistic.

burnthesheep

joey54321 wrote:

I don't want to be a dick but "100% of 8min ftp over - 8 min ftp" isn't a thing.

It's not ftp, no. But I didn't write the book. Chris Carmichael and Jim Rutberg did. They use a best-of 2x8min test to get your training percentages or ranges. Then the over/unders are just that, the over is around 100% of the 8min test and the under is around 86-90%.

Right there in black and white on the book shelf.

Link to the test in question:
https://trainright.com/cts-field-test-w ... es-not-20/

Mapaputsi

Don't be discouraged, it's better to finish them out even at 80%. Over unders are absolutely brutal!

aberdeen_lune

Hypster I’ve been doing that GCN over under workout on a Kurt Kinetic fluid turbo once a week for the past three or four weeks. It is brutal. The first set on the GCN video is 4 repeats the second set 5 repeats of the 30 second over 2 minute under. I am handing on by repeat 4 on the second set. Keep at it you will get there. If your struggling just do 4 repeats on the second set until you get stronger.

As for variation on the fluid due to heat I haven’t seen much of that. My cadence is 95 for the overs 90 for the unders and the power reading is very similar throughout the session eg 50 watts higher on the over. I think the key to the session is not letting the under go to low.

joey54321

burnthesheep wrote:

joey54321 wrote:

I don't want to be a dick but "100% of 8min ftp over - 8 min ftp" isn't a thing.

It's not ftp, no. But I didn't write the book. Chris Carmichael and Jim Rutberg did. They use a best-of 2x8min test to get your training percentages or ranges. Then the over/unders are just that, the over is around 100% of the 8min test and the under is around 86-90%.

Right there in black and white on the book shelf.

Link to the test in question:
https://trainright.com/cts-field-test-w ... es-not-20/

Yes, they generate a value for FTP from 2 x 8 mins, which is a very well known proxy test to replace a 60 minute test. I just didn't want the OP or future readers getting confused about levels and power targets and thought i'd point out that the result of an 8 min test (or 2 x 8 mins) is not the same as FTP.

hypster

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

Hypster I’ve been doing that GCN over under workout on a Kurt Kinetic fluid turbo once a week for the past three or four weeks. It is brutal. The first set on the GCN video is 4 repeats the second set 5 repeats of the 30 second over 2 minute under. I am handing on by repeat 4 on the second set. Keep at it you will get there. If your struggling just do 4 repeats on the second set until you get stronger.

As for variation on the fluid due to heat I haven’t seen much of that. My cadence is 95 for the overs 90 for the unders and the power reading is very similar throughout the session eg 50 watts higher on the over. I think the key to the session is not letting the under go to low.

Yes, very much my experence of the Kurt Kinetic Rock & Roll fluid trainer. I've realised that even though I'm dropping below the 90% upper level for the Under blocks, I'm still very much in the sweet spot or tempo zone if you like, so maybe things are not as desperate as I thought. I will definitely try 2 x 4 interval blocks in future and move on from there.

I will persevere with these intervals but I have caught this chest virus which is going around so won't be attempting another one until that's gone. Thanks for all the help and suggestions.

Lookyhere

hypster wrote:

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

Hypster I’ve been doing that GCN over under workout on a Kurt Kinetic fluid turbo once a week for the past three or four weeks. It is brutal. The first set on the GCN video is 4 repeats the second set 5 repeats of the 30 second over 2 minute under. I am handing on by repeat 4 on the second set. Keep at it you will get there. If your struggling just do 4 repeats on the second set until you get stronger.

As for variation on the fluid due to heat I haven’t seen much of that. My cadence is 95 for the overs 90 for the unders and the power reading is very similar throughout the session eg 50 watts higher on the over. I think the key to the session is not letting the under go to low.

Yes, very much my experence of the Kurt Kinetic Rock & Roll fluid trainer. I've realised that even though I'm dropping below the 90% upper level for the Under blocks, I'm still very much in the sweet spot or tempo zone if you like, so maybe things are not as desperate as I thought. I will definitely try 2 x 4 interval blocks in future and move on from there.

I will persevere with these intervals but I have caught this chest virus which is going around so won't be attempting another one until that's gone. Thanks for all the help and suggestions.

When i read your OP, i was struck by your comment that you felt very hot during this work-out and wondered if you were going down with something, seems you are.

tbh honest, if your FTP is x watts, i d have thought that 110% for 30secs, followed by 2mins at 90% x 5 should be doable.

I would nt attempt any of these until you are completely well again.

hypster

Lookyhere wrote:

When i read your OP, i was struck by your comment that you felt very hot during this work-out and wondered if you were going down with something, seems you are.

tbh honest, if your FTP is x watts, i d have thought that 110% for 30secs, followed by 2mins at 90% x 5 should be doable.

I would nt attempt any of these until you are completely well again.

Nah, I'm a sweat monster at the best of times. I've got the heating permanently off in the study where I train and have a great big floor fan on full blast which just about stops me melting.

I did that workout on Sunday, 14th Jan. Rested next day and then did a 43 mile steady road ride with a mate on Tuesday morning and swam 2000m in the pool Tuesday evening. That's a normal Tuesday for me and I was feeling really good. Very slight tickly cough on Wednesday morning and a bit of a fever which subsided on Thursday but the cough has got worse today (Friday) and is a little bit phlegmy.

Thanks for the concern and I will now take things easy until I know it's over.