3minute fullgas = 120% FTP?
cruising on empty
Posts: 16
Hi guys
How far out are the numbers going to be if you do 3min fullgas sessions till failure and use that as your 120%ftp figure to extrapolate an ftp @100%?
So in effect, if 95% of your 20min effort is 100% ftp then it begs to reason your 3min power curve is high end vo2max which equates to 120% ftp roughly.
Let's say 120% = 3min @ 380w equals 316w ftp. Strength, weakness and differing physiology aside. Confused!
How far out are the numbers going to be if you do 3min fullgas sessions till failure and use that as your 120%ftp figure to extrapolate an ftp @100%?
So in effect, if 95% of your 20min effort is 100% ftp then it begs to reason your 3min power curve is high end vo2max which equates to 120% ftp roughly.
Let's say 120% = 3min @ 380w equals 316w ftp. Strength, weakness and differing physiology aside. Confused!
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Why not just do an FTP test?0
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Quite a long way out for me. My best 3 minute effort last year (not to failure) was 393 but latest FTP test gave 278. I don't think a 3 minute effort is going to give you even an approximation of FTP.0
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I'd think they would be very far out. Certainly not remotely close for me. If I used an FTP estimate using this method, my training zones would be way out.0
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You'll get a lot individual variability at MMP3. Mine's closer to 160% FTP. Others might struggle to reach 120%.
I wouldn't consider it a viable proxy, even if you had some historical power data, too many variables.0 -
VamP wrote:You'll get a lot individual variability at MMP3. Mine's closer to 160% FTP. Others might struggle to reach 120%.
I wouldn't consider it a viable proxy, even if you had some historical power data, too many variables.
Cool, so 95% of 20min power "could" be your ftp, or it could be wildly wrong too based on many variables?0 -
Yes, there will be big individual variation in this. For me my max 3 min effort is a little over 140% FTP.
This is exactly why if you read any of the books on training with power they stress the importance of testing your ability at different durations (20 mins, 5 mins, 1 min etc), because these durations rely on different metabolic systems and some people are much better at some than at others. A 20 min effort should roughly correlate with an hour effort because they are both well into the aerobic zone but not so long that fatigue is a major factor, but a three minute effort is largely aerobic so tells you something else entirely about your fitness / abilities.0 -
cruising on empty wrote:VamP wrote:You'll get a lot individual variability at MMP3. Mine's closer to 160% FTP. Others might struggle to reach 120%.
I wouldn't consider it a viable proxy, even if you had some historical power data, too many variables.
Cool, so 95% of 20min power "could" be your ftp, or it could be wildly wrong too based on many variables?
MMP20 is typically in the range of 105% to 110% FTP so a much smaller spread, but it also varies less with different training focus. My MMP3 may only be 130% if I haven't trained it for a few months but responds well to training. Variations in my aerobic power are much flatter.0 -
cruising on empty wrote:Cool, so 95% of 20min power "could" be your ftp, or it could be wildly wrong too based on many variables?
Basically yes, but a 20 minute test is going to more accurate than a 3 minute one, simply because it's closer to the actual hour so there will be less variation. A 30 minute test would be even more accurate, then a full hour test even more so.0 -
MiddleRinger wrote:cruising on empty wrote:Cool, so 95% of 20min power "could" be your ftp, or it could be wildly wrong too based on many variables?
Basically yes, but a 20 minute test is going to more accurate than a 3 minute one, simply because it's closer to the actual hour so there will be less variation. A 30 minute test would be even more accurate, then a full hour test even more so.
Essentially, the shorter the test, the larger the influence of anaerobic capacity which is variable across individuals. Some protocols for shortened FTP estimation include a short effort before e.g. a 20 or 30 minute test to reduce the influence of anaerobic capacity.0 -
Not sure it works out that way. People have different power profiles over 1 hr, 20 min, 5 min, 3 min, etc......... It's not formulaic all the way down.
If so, I'd have a lot higher ftp. I can do 350w for 3min...........I can NOT do anywhere close to 290w for 20min. I've done 255 and maybe could do 260 since that was 2 months back.
Only way to know is to do an effort at each time you want to know it for. Lots of segments around town here are about 3min, so I get to see that a lot.
I do a 20min test maybe 4x a year. I'll do an hour maybe once a year. I'll do 1 min pretty often in workouts.0 -
Alex99 wrote:MiddleRinger wrote:cruising on empty wrote:Cool, so 95% of 20min power "could" be your ftp, or it could be wildly wrong too based on many variables?
Basically yes, but a 20 minute test is going to more accurate than a 3 minute one, simply because it's closer to the actual hour so there will be less variation. A 30 minute test would be even more accurate, then a full hour test even more so.
Essentially, the shorter the test, the larger the influence of anaerobic capacity which is variable across individuals. Some protocols for shortened FTP estimation include a short effort before e.g. a 20 or 30 minute test to reduce the influence of anaerobic capacity.
So if you have a vo2max workout that prescribes 3min @120% FTP. But you have a 3min power duration of say 150% ftp. Do you adjust intensity?
This is making power training sound like a grey unproven area, can you imagine how grey and unproven HR and RPE is in comparison!?0 -
cruising on empty wrote:Alex99 wrote:MiddleRinger wrote:cruising on empty wrote:Cool, so 95% of 20min power "could" be your ftp, or it could be wildly wrong too based on many variables?
Basically yes, but a 20 minute test is going to more accurate than a 3 minute one, simply because it's closer to the actual hour so there will be less variation. A 30 minute test would be even more accurate, then a full hour test even more so.
Essentially, the shorter the test, the larger the influence of anaerobic capacity which is variable across individuals. Some protocols for shortened FTP estimation include a short effort before e.g. a 20 or 30 minute test to reduce the influence of anaerobic capacity.
So if you have a vo2max workout that prescribes 3min @120% FTP. But you have a 3min power duration of say 150% ftp. Do you adjust intensity?
This is making power training sound like a grey unproven area, can you imagine how grey and unproven HR and RPE is in comparison!?
I don't think you can say that. Key concept is specificity, so if you want to train your 3 minute power then train at intensity appropriate to you. Understanding your own relative strengths/weaknesses is a lot easier with power, but I don't think there is anything particularly grey or unproven about it. Generic training plans will, by definition, not be specific to you.0 -
337w FTP
459w 3 min power
= 136%
But I can do 451w for 7’30”, so not really sure it’s a good measurement (or I’m being a fanny for my 3 min power?)....
Just smash a 20 min test and go from there.0 -
Ryan_W wrote:337w FTP
459w 3 min power
= 136%
But I can do 451w for 7’30”, so not really sure it’s a good measurement (or I’m being a fanny for my 3 min power?)....
Just smash a 20 min test and go from there.
Oh Christ, yeah, there's over 150 watts between my 3 and 7 minute power so I think you might be
A proper 3 minute effort such as a full on hill-climb will leave you with scorched lungs, incapacitated for 30 minutes, and still feeling the effects a day later. There's a reason there are catchers at the finish line in hill climbs.0 -
Ryan_W wrote:337w FTP
459w 3 min power
= 136%
But I can do 451w for 7’30”
I can only dream. :shock:0 -
If you want to find out how hard a session is, you just have to try it.cruising on empty wrote:So if you have a vo2max workout that prescribes 3min @120% FTP. But you have a 3min power duration of say 150% ftp. Do you adjust intensity?0 -
Specificity.
I frequently have the guys I coach throw in a ‘test’ for a specific time period if I think their power profile has a dip in it somewhere.
If you’re concentrating on endurance then 3min Power is going to be at the lower end. If your doing 10m TTs or certainly pursuits then your 3min Power is going to be far higher!Insta: ATEnduranceCoaching
ABCC Cycling Coach0 -
burnthesheep wrote:Ryan_W wrote:337w FTP
459w 3 min power
= 136%
But I can do 451w for 7’30”
I can only dream. :shock:
He's 90kgI'm sorry you don't believe in miracles0 -
SloppySchleckonds wrote:burnthesheep wrote:Ryan_W wrote:337w FTP
459w 3 min power
= 136%
But I can do 451w for 7’30”
I can only dream. :shock:
He's 90kg
88kg :roll:0 -
SloppySchleckonds wrote:burnthesheep wrote:Ryan_W wrote:337w FTP
459w 3 min power
= 136%
But I can do 451w for 7’30”
I can only dream. :shock:
He's 90kg
Age might also be relevant?
FFS! Harden up and grow a pair0 -
Svetty wrote:SloppySchleckonds wrote:burnthesheep wrote:Ryan_W wrote:337w FTP
459w 3 min power
= 136%
But I can do 451w for 7’30”
I can only dream. :shock:
He's 90kg
Age might also be relevant?
I’m old! 33 ain’t no joooooooke.....0 -
NapoleonD wrote:Specificity.
I frequently have the guys I coach throw in a ‘test’ for a specific time period if I think their power profile has a dip in it somewhere.
If you’re concentrating on endurance then 3min Power is going to be at the lower end. If your doing 10m TTs or certainly pursuits then your 3min Power is going to be far higher!
So if you have a higher power curve than your 20min test allows for you to train at 120%. How would you adjust for that?0 -
If you can’t do the intervals at 120%, you’ll have to do them at less than 120%. Am I missing something here?0
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Tom Dean wrote:If you can’t do the intervals at 120%, you’ll have to do them at less than 120%. Am I missing something here?
Yes you are missing the point if you can do the intervals at 140%, does that mean it is better and you should?0 -
The point is that you shouldn’t use your FTP as the basis for calculating the intensity of three minute intervals.. If I remember, according to the Coggan book you should test your maximum power output at 20mins, 5mins, 1min and 5seconds (ideally on an ongoing basis). You would use your maximum 5min output as the basis for working out what intensity to do 3min intervals at.cruising on empty wrote:Tom Dean wrote:If you can’t do the intervals at 120%, you’ll have to do them at less than 120%. Am I missing something here?
Yes you are missing the point if you can do the intervals at 140%, does that mean it is better and you should?0 -
cruising on empty wrote:Tom Dean wrote:If you can’t do the intervals at 120%, you’ll have to do them at less than 120%. Am I missing something here?
Yes you are missing the point if you can do the intervals at 140%, does that mean it is better and you should?
You should always do the intervals at the maximum RPE you can sustain for the duration of the interval. Whether that comes out at 120%, 140% or 138.5% is kinda irrelevant really...0 -
Although if you were doing a set of several 3min intervals you wouldn’t be able to do them all at your absolute maximum 3min power. So it helps to set a target based on a certain percentage of your maximum output at a similar duration.0
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Imposter wrote:cruising on empty wrote:Tom Dean wrote:If you can’t do the intervals at 120%, you’ll have to do them at less than 120%. Am I missing something here?
Yes you are missing the point if you can do the intervals at 140%, does that mean it is better and you should?
You should always do the intervals at the maximum RPE you can sustain for the duration of the interval. Whether that comes out at 120%, 140% or 138.5% is kinda irrelevant really...
There is a reason why training with power is different from training with RPE - or HR.........FFS! Harden up and grow a pair0 -
RPE and HR can vary day to day enough that you may sell your self short on the day's intervals if you just go at what RPE you think you can do for 3 min. Not my idea, straight from Carmichael/Rutberg. That's pretty much a quote from the book.
That's what the book/plans I'm using say to do, so I do it. Is it the best? Maybe not. Does it work for me? So far I'm pleased.0 -
This thread has to set some sort of record for the number of people talking at cross-purposes..
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