2018 Metric Century Challenge

milemuncher1 · May 2018

Svetty wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I think this challenge is good, but it could be more exciting.
Every year, comes spring the race for the top is pretty much over, owing to the fact that there is a restricted number of riders with a lot of time in their hands who surgically tailor their rides to exactly 100 km or thereabouts... and of course they can do an almost unlimited number of them.
To balance things out, I think those of us who do not have as much free time, should be able to compensate gaining extra points for longer rides. That incidentally is a push to go a bit further... let's face it, for a good proportion of us doing 100 km in spring and summer is not exactly taxing!
Bear in mind that the second half of a 200 km ride is significantly tougher than the first half, so all in all it just fair that it earns more points

So, here is my revised model, which I already proposed in the past, with not much traction

100 km = 1 point

200 km = 2 x 2 = 4 points

300 km = 3 x 3 = 9 points

400 km = 300 + 100 = 10 points

500 km = 300 + 200 = 13 points

600 km = 300 + 300 = 18 points

PBP = 1200 km = 300 x 4 = 36 points

Hilarious. First you state that there is a restricted number of riders with time to ride 60 miles regularly then propose a system that primarily rewards those able to do rides of 120 miles and over. Presumably you feel that the number of riders doing these is less restricted? This is frankly b0ll0cks....

Then you - with no evidence of foundation whatsoever - accuse people of 'surgically tailoring their rides to exactly 100 km or thereabouts'. Again this is b0ll0cks. I get out for a long ride at the weekend and an afternoon in the week. An afternoon ride of 3-4 hours just happens to equate to about 60 miles - no 'surgical tailoring' involved and I suspect others do similar.

The challenge is what it is and seems to me - as a relative newcomer - to be a good compromise. Most regular cyclists can ride 100k and get out a few times a month. To adopt the proposed modification means than only a tiny minority of cyclists - eg long distance audax enthusiasts - need bother. No surprise it didn't gain much traction when previously proposed and the quoted post just sounds like sour grapes TBH.

The challenge is to get at least 1 100Km Ride per month, for every month of the year. If people want to do more than that, it’s up to them. Keeping it ‘as is’ is the best idea, otherwise you’ll just end up with about 4 riders doing it every year. What’s the point in that?

ugo.santalucia · May 2018

Both of you

the challenge wouldn't change... you still need to score a point every month to stay in it... it just makes for a more interesting GC.
For instance, next year is PBP year and there might be a small number of people on here doing it (Durrin?)... if it was worth 36 points, that could easily change things re. GC

Svetty, what makes you think I was talking about you with the "surgically riding 100 km exactly" comment? As a matter of fact I wasn't.

Re. Audax Brevets... some BP are 160 km, some BR 300 km are actually 325 km... what you say is not necessarily true.

Anyway, it was just a thought to spice things up... since WE DO HAVE A GC... to my memory over the past few years it's always the same 2 or 3 at the top and typically it's because they do more 100 km rides rather than longer ones... I just thought if you give more points to longer rides, maybe you get more battle for the top spot... then again, maybe not... I haven't done the maths

Basically, if you are time crunched and you can only ride once a month, you can still win... ride a 300 km every time and you will score 108 points in 12 months... !!

Not sure what cause such "outrage"... :roll:

stanthomas · May 2018

Hi ugo,
In keeping with the name of the challenge, here's an alternative:
100 km = 1 point
200 km = 1 point
300 km = 1 point
... I ithink you can see where I'm going.

Now, if AUK want to run a challenge ... oh wait, they do - the Super and Hyper-Randonneur certificates.

ugo.santalucia · May 2018

stanthomas wrote:

Hi ugo,
In keeping with the name of the challenge, here's an alternative:
100 km = 1 point
200 km = 1 point
300 km = 1 point
... I ithink you can see where I'm going.

Now, if AUK want to run a challenge ... oh wait, they do - the Super and Hyper-Randonneur certificates.

AUK is a validation body... it is in their interest to run as many challenges as possible, so that people keep their interest alive and join the organisation.

With respect to this challenge, I just find there are a sizeable number of us who find the 100 km a month easy enough (ie NOT a challenge), but don't have enough time to go out every other day and aim for the 100 or so points you need to compete for the GC. My proposition goes a long way to readdress the time Vs inclination balance and spice things up at the top end... but clearly I am the only one to see it that way, therefore I will rest my case.

svetty · May 2018

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Svetty, what makes you think I was talking about you with the "surgically riding 100 km exactly" comment? As a matter of fact I wasn't.

I didn't think you were, just using me as an example

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Basically, if you are time crunched and you can only ride once a month, you can still win... ride a 300 km every time and you will score 108 points in 12 months... !!

Not sure many can knock out a 300k ride once a month unless they are also getting a fair few miles in on other rides - so not all that time crunched?

Agree with you that this challenge isn't an especially taxing challenge - I think that's the point though? Your suggestion is going a bit far towards ultra-long distance riders of whom there aren't that many. Still, as long as we're all out there riding it's all good, no?

ugo.santalucia · May 2018

Svetty wrote:

Agree with you that this challenge isn't an especially taxing challenge - I think that's the point though? Your suggestion is going a bit far towards ultra-long distance riders of whom there aren't that many. Still, as long as we're all out there riding it's all good, no?

Yes, but for instance last year I did 60 odd points, which was nowhere near enough to challenge the top spot... although I did as many century rides as I can possibly do in one year without risking a divorce.

Knowing that you need 100+ points to be a contender in this game, this year I am not going to bother and if a ride is 90 km I am not going to make it longer for the sake of a point, because with these rules I will never be a contender, so it doesn't really matter if I get 1 point in April or 5. Basically I don't have any particular motivation.

There are others in a similar position to mine, which would see a boost in points, if longer rides got extra reward.

You might argue that I want to tweak the rules to suit me, which is probably true... but not just me, it would provide extra motivation to ride further, which I think is in line with the aim of this challenge.

As it is, the challenge rewards those who have 4 or 5 hours for cycling on a regular basis, rather than those who have "more bravery".

In rugby you get extra points for scoring a lot of tries, in football you get 3 points instead of 2 if you win... in the TdF you get extra seconds if you win the intermediate sprints or if you win the stage and so on.

Extra motivation can only be a good thing

webboo · May 2018

ugo.santalucia wrote:

As it is, the challenge rewards those who have 4 or 5 hours for cycling on a regular basis, rather than those who have "more bravery".

Bravery is soloing the North face of the Eiger or a 100 mile breakaway in a road race not riding 200 miles stopping for fish and chips every 50 miles.

ugo.santalucia · May 2018

Webboo wrote:

Bravery is soloing the North face of the Eiger or a 100 mile breakaway in a road race not riding 200 miles stopping for fish and chips every 50 miles.

Bravery is anything out of your comfort zone... it can be anything... for some it will be stepping out of their front door, for others it will be the Nordwand.

webboo · May 2018

So therefore those who can cycle 4 or 5 hours on a regular basis can be as brave as those heroes riding 300K.

pollys_bott · May 2018

jan feb mar apr total
  9  10  12  11   42 Milemuncher1 (1,=)
  7  10   3   8   28 Runner2Cycling (2,=)
  6   2   5   4   17 Svetty (3,=)
  2   4   3   4   13 Cruff (4,=)
  4   2   2   5   13 Manx Shred (4,+2)
  2   3   4   3   12 Kirkee (6,-2)
  2   4   2   4   12 Fat Cat (6,=)
  2   3   3   4   12 Davix (6,=)
  2   1   4   5   12 ugo.santalucia (6,+5)
  3   2   3   3   11 Charlie Potatoes (10,-4)
  3   3   2   2   10 diplodicus (11,-5)
  4   1   2   3   10 Dish_dash (11,=)
  4   1   2   2    9 Super_Davo (13,-2)
  3   2   1   3    9 Dorset Boy (13,+1)
  3   1   1   3    8 Pedylan (15,+1)
  1   1   3   3    8 Durrin (15,+1)
  1   2   1   4    8 ajdobbin (15,+5)
  2   2   2   1    7 dandrew (18,-4)
  1   2   2   2    7 TriggersBroom (18,-2)
  1   2   1   2    6 whitehart (20,=)
  2   1   1   1    5 Mike Eye (21,-1)
  1   2   1   1    5 Pollys Bott (21,-1)
  1   1   1   1    4 Leedsmjh (23,+1)
  1   1   1   1    4 Stanthomas (23,+1)
  1   1   1   1    4 Mrfpb (23,+1)
  1   1   1   1    4 Wind700 (23,+1)
  2   2   1        5 Webboo (27,-11)
  1   1            2 Jdee84 (28,=)
  1   1            2 TonySJ 
  4                4 Exumanewbie (30)
  1                1 Shoulder of lamb (31)

Whilst the top two fly off into the distance there's plenty of healthy competition amongst the pursuing pack, and for those of us permanently in the gruppetto the challenge remains to get out and do a ton once a month... which should hopefully be less of an issue with these longer warmer evenings

And for what my two penn'orth is worth, there are some interesting points made above on both sides of the discussion: for me I first got into this back in 2010 just as I was starting to commute to work by bike and do more riding in general. It was a great motivational tool to do what it says on the tin - get out and do one once a month; and since Jan 2010 I've done that with one exception. It's helped me get much fitter, keep the middle-aged spread down and discover some beautiful places up and down the country. IMHO the annual GC is just a natural consequence of simple arithmetic, not the reason for doing it in the first place, though I fully understand Ugo's view. Wishing you all peace and stiff tail winds

ugo.santalucia · May 2018

Webboo wrote:

So therefore those who can cycle 4 or 5 hours on a regular basis can be as brave as those heroes riding 300K.

I don't know. All I know is that a 400 km ride is a big deal for me... I've only done 2 of them. I think about it for months, obsessing about the details and don't sleep the night before... it feels like a big adventure and it often is. A 300 km feels a bit less so... a 200 km is a long slog on the bike, but I'm back home well before dinner and I don't lose my sleep over it.

For others the threshold is higher or lower. I am sure Stephen Abrahams doesn't think much of riding 600 km at any one time... don't think anyone on here loses sleep over a 100 km ride though...

manxshred · May 2018

I’m training for the Tour du Mont Blanc at the moment. I’ll get 3 points for the ride as it’s 330km, but it’s over 8,000m of climbing, so I get the same number of points as doing a pan flat 300.
I’ve also done the Salzkammergut MTB race, with is 211km, with 7,100m if climbing, but is only worth 2points even though it took me 15.5 hours.

My point here is where do you draw the line? In the end, this is some fun on the internet. I would rather say we should get rid of the leader board and just go to announcing who is still in with no leader board before we make this even more complicated.

ugo.santalucia · May 2018

ManxShred wrote:

I’m training for the Tour du Mont Blanc at the moment. I’ll get 3 points for the ride as it’s 330km, but it’s over 8,000m of climbing, so I get the same number of points as doing a pan flat 300.
I’ve also done the Salzkammergut MTB race, with is 211km, with 7,100m if climbing, but is only worth 2points even though it took me 15.5 hours.

My point here is where do you draw the line? In the end, this is some fun on the internet. I would rather say we should get rid of the leader board and just go to announcing who is still in with no leader board before we make this even more complicated.

First question: one could think of multipliers for altitude gain, the only problem is that altitude counts are always inconsistent between devices and softwares.

Yes I suppose we could get rid of the GC, but as a result some might end up riding less. Or, we can spice it up and some might end up riding more... to me it seems a no brainer

manxshred · May 2018

It’s a challenge on the internet, making it any more complicated is just no worth it.

stanthomas · May 2018

ugo.santalucia wrote:

... to me it seems a no brainer

Since most of us seem to like this challenge just the way it is, perhaps the answer is for you to start your own. It's an open forum after all. How about the "Ugo Saddle-Sore Challenge"?

milemuncher1 · May 2018

stanthomas wrote:

Hi ugo,
In keeping with the name of the challenge, here's an alternative:
100 km = 1 point
200 km = 1 point
300 km = 1 point
... I ithink you can see where I'm going.

Now, if AUK want to run a challenge ... oh wait, they do - the Super and Hyper-Randonneur certificates.

Good point, well made.

mrfpb · May 2018

Personally how 200+ rides are scored isn't going to bother me, I've joined this as a "beginners" challenge as it was intended to be, and barring my Dragon Ride (my main motivation for doing this) I don't expect to post more than one point per month.
And also for me 100km represents 5-6 hr not 3-4, or at least it has for the early pert of the year, I hope I'll speed up
If I had more time on my hands, I might very well join AUK as it would be good to do these with like minded people, and push the boat out further in terms of distance. This challenge is a good taster for long distance non-competitive/informal riding.

durrin · May 2018

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I think this challenge is good, ...

I agree that the totals don't necessarily reflect the difficulty of the rides done, and that it is true that the _last_ 100km of a long ride are often the hardest (in my limited experience this isn't actually true of the _really_ long rides, like PBP or LEL). However, I think it would be nigh-on impossible to create a point-system that did. It is simply too hard to take everything into account:
-distance
-speed
-climbing meters
-weight
-weather
-bike
-surface

Sometimes when I'm touring my rides feel like they should be worth more than one point, where I ride 130-190km with 3000+ height meters on a bike with 4 panniers and a tent. When I ride 178km at 34km/h after a 3.8km swim just before I run a marathon it also feels like it should be more than one point. And I do know that it is a lot more than twice as hard to ride a 200 than a 100:
So to some extent I sympathize with you.

I did a quick-calculation for last year: it's true that the rankings would have been different: I think you would have had about 105 points to my 141 and Runner2Cyclings 125, so you would have gotten 3rd place instead of 4th. OTOH it would be impossible for someone doing 3 to 6 100-190km ride a month to even come close to competing: PBP plus the 4 qualifying rides would be 78pts by themselves!!

Trying to administer a competition that tried to account for almost any of these variables would be a nightmare. It's important that it is easy to administer, otherwise no-one will be willing to do so. So on the whole, the simplicity of the current rules, plus the fact that your rules would be heavily weighted towards randonneurs, speak for keeping the rules the way they are.

Plus, there are a priori plenty of awards/recognition to be won in the Audax world: RRTY, SR, R5000, R10000, etc. Go for those if you want to give yourself something to strive for. It's what I've done: the R10000 is particularly tough to manage.

ugo.santalucia · May 2018

Alas, somebody who wants to have this conversation.

I agree the main issue is administration, although in fairness we are replacing additions with multiplications, hardly the stuff A-level maths are made of.

Yes, probably it would end up being too skewed towards randonneurs, but that could be tweaked, maybe

200 = 4 points

300 = 200+100= 5 points

400 = 200 +200 = 8 points

PBP = 6 x 200 = 24 points

The all SR qualifiers + PBP comes at 53 points (instead of 78 of the previous model or 29 of the current simple model).

Anyway, all academic as there is no interest.

For a different analogy, I guess if Man City won the league and all the matches 1-0, probably the fans would complain... if it did happen every year, probably the FA would come up with a new set of rules to give extra points for extra goals or something to spice things up

webboo · May 2018

Years ago before indoor climbing walls which have led to the current climbing competitions. The Russians used to hold the world speed climbing completions outside in the Crimea. However few other nations competed other than the Eastern block nations and the Germans who went for the free beer. The French decided to compete and spent ages training their squad with the view to winning.
However at arriving at the venue, they found not only did they have to climb very fast to the top of the cliff. They also had abseil at speed back down, something they hadn’t trained for. They tried to get the rules changed unsuccessfully and came nowhere.
They then went off and invented their own competitions.
Which seems to be very similar to what Ugo is trying to do.

ugo.santalucia · May 2018

Webboo wrote:

Years ago before indoor climbing walls which have led to the current climbing competitions. The Russians used to hold the world speed climbing completions outside in the Crimea. However few other nations competed other than the Eastern block nations and the Germans who went for the free beer. The French decided to compete and spent ages training their squad with the view to winning.
However at arriving at the venue, they found not only did they have to climb very fast to the top of the cliff. They also had abseil at speed back down, something they hadn’t trained for. They tried to get the rules changed unsuccessfully and came nowhere.
They then went off and invented their own competitions.
Which seems to be very similar to what Ugo is trying to do.

I like your analogy... I have a revised one: with the current rules only the Russians are competing and everybody else is there for the free beer.
it's very De Coubertin, but not very exciting...

webboo · May 2018

I didn’t mention that the Russian version of climbing comps is now no longer but the French version is the current norm. So you might therefore be advised to persevere with your version.
You may need to call it something French though.

ugo.santalucia · May 2018

Webboo wrote:

I didn’t mention that the Russian version of climbing comps is now no longer but the French version is the current norm. So you might therefore be advised to persevere with your version.
You may need to call it something French though.

It would appear that people like linear increments rather than exponential ones... which is bizarre in the society of excesses we live in. Maybe nobody likes this society after all... :roll:

ugo.santalucia · May 2018

durrin wrote:

R10000 is particularly tough to manage.

R10,000 is basically 50 x 200 BR... or one every saturday... with longer BRM you might be able to skip some weekends, not many.

I know a couple of AUK members who typically rack up 100 or more points... that's ALL they do... :?

But that goes back to my initial point... how can you score 100 points in this challenge and still have a "normal" life?

webboo · May 2018

If you had a normal life why would you be posting on here.

triggersbroom · May 2018

mrfpb wrote:

Personally how 200+ rides are scored isn't going to bother me, I've joined this as a "beginners" challenge as it was intended to be, and barring my Dragon Ride (my main motivation for doing this) I don't expect to post more than one point per month.
And also for me 100km represents 5-6 hr not 3-4, or at least it has for the early pert of the year, I hope I'll speed up
If I had more time on my hands, I might very well join AUK as it would be good to do these with like minded people, and push the boat out further in terms of distance. This challenge is a good taster for long distance non-competitive/informal riding.

^ What mrfpb said. I'm training for the RAB in September having started from scratch late last year. To me this is an additional motivator to make sure I get out at least once a month to do a decent ride. I've no expectations of winning the GC but then again I've got a fairly pressurised full time job, wife and kids to keep happy and remanants of an actual other life that doesn't involve cycling. I'm happy as is. Enjoy your riding everyone.

ps I'll be smashing the points in come September

svetty · May 2018

ugo.santalucia wrote:

durrin wrote:

R10000 is particularly tough to manage.

R10,000 is basically 50 x 200 BR... or one every saturday... with longer BRM you might be able to skip some weekends, not many.

I know a couple of AUK members who typically rack up 100 or more points... that's ALL they do... :?

But that goes back to my initial point... how can you score 100 points in this challenge and still have a "normal" life?

Not many rack up 100points tbf - I don't think any system would help increase the total points scored apart from point inflation. I would suggest that anyone capable of riding several hundred kilometres in one go must train themselves in order do so and that such endurance training is hard to fit into a 'normal' life. Doing regular rides of 3-4 hours is a lot to fit into a weekly routine IMO......

ugo.santalucia · May 2018

Svetty wrote:

Not many rack up 100points tbf - I don't think any system would help increase the total points scored apart from point inflation. I would suggest that anyone capable of riding several hundred kilometres in one go must train themselves in order do so

Not necessarily, I know quite a few who ride their bike a couple of times in June and then enter LEL and finish it... of course they have years of experience in long distance cycling and know what they are doing, but what I am trying to say is that you won't see them on the road every day trying to rack up miles in preparation, in the same way folks do ahead of the Fred Whitton or Ride London.

Personally I think training is aimed to racing and it's typically detrimental for long distance riding... I always have the impression that the least I ride in preparation, the better I do.

durrin · May 2018

ugo.santalucia wrote:

durrin wrote:

R10000 is particularly tough to manage.

R10,000 is basically 50 x 200 BR...

Randonneur 10000

ugo.santalucia · May 2018

durrin wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

durrin wrote:

R10000 is particularly tough to manage.

R10,000 is basically 50 x 200 BR...

Randonneur 10000

I see, that's the ACP one, I thought you meant the AUK one

http://www.aukweb.net/results/randonneur/

2018 Metric Century Challenge

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