Album Wars: Sgt Peppers v Pet Sounds...go!

lostboysaint

mrfpb wrote:

Sgt Pepper, because the band made it. Pet Sounds was made by Brian Wilson while the Beach Boys were on tour.

That's a very good point.

lostboysaint

I wondered how long it would take for this to descend into the usual "my taste is better/cooler than yours" thread and the obscure band names/genres or the "of course the original by *** is SO much better than...." would be tossed around in the way of demonstrating some kind of superiority. Always amusing.

mrfpb

Frank Wilson wrote:

Must admit I agree with the chap who said not in my 500. I can't find anything to appeal to me in either album or artist.

I suppose my musical tastes have always been about discovering music for myself rather than follow the masses, in the same way I wouldn't listen to the Beatles I wouldn't listen to other "in media speak" musical influences like Queen or Bowie, they do absolutely nothing for me but have garnered a large following because people are easily influenced.

It is what I term as LOI (Lack of imagination) music, not so much on the part of the creators of the music but the people who listen to and become fans of it)

But where do you discover new music now? When I was a kid, I didn't know it at the time, but musical taste was pretty much dictated at the radio producers meeting on a Monday morning. that set the playlist for the week ahead for daytime and late evening. It was only mavericks like John Peel and John Waters (his producer) that bucked the trend. So yes, music for the mass market. Nowadays......what?

Frank Wilson

mrfpb wrote:

Frank Wilson wrote:

Must admit I agree with the chap who said not in my 500. I can't find anything to appeal to me in either album or artist.

I suppose my musical tastes have always been about discovering music for myself rather than follow the masses, in the same way I wouldn't listen to the Beatles I wouldn't listen to other "in media speak" musical influences like Queen or Bowie, they do absolutely nothing for me but have garnered a large following because people are easily influenced.

It is what I term as LOI (Lack of imagination) music, not so much on the part of the creators of the music but the people who listen to and become fans of it)

But where do you discover new music now? When I was a kid, I didn't know it at the time, but musical taste was pretty much dictated at the radio producers meeting on a Monday morning. that set the playlist for the week ahead for daytime and late evening. It was only mavericks like John Peel and John Waters (his producer) that bucked the trend. So yes, music for the mass market. Nowadays......what?

A good point sir, not one I can answer. Back in the day I would tune in to AFN American Forces Network to hear soul I couldn't hear on mainstream radio but nowadays I wouldn't have a clue!

Frank Wilson

lostboysaint wrote:

I wondered how long it would take for this to descend into the usual "my taste is better/cooler than yours" thread and the obscure band names/genres or the "of course the original by *** is SO much better than...." would be tossed around in the way of demonstrating some kind of superiority. Always amusing.

Think you totally misread my post mate.

meursault

Frank Wilson wrote:

CarbonClem wrote:

Frank Wilson wrote:

Must admit I agree with the chap who said not in my 500. I can't find anything to appeal to me in either album or artist.

I suppose my musical tastes have always been about discovering music for myself rather than follow the masses, in the same way I wouldn't listen to the Beatles I wouldn't listen to other "in media speak" musical influences like Queen or Bowie, they do absolutely nothing for me but have garnered a large following because people are easily influenced.

It is what I term as LOI (Lack of imagination) music, not so much on the part of the creators of the music but the people who listen to and become fans of it)

I always assumed your username was the singer, but I guess from your comments its actually your name?

The Northern Soul angle is actually a great illustration of what I was trying to say Clem. Back in the early seventies whilst my friends of the time were going to the local clubs to hear easily accessible chart music like Rod Stewart / Slade / Sweet or whatever we would be seeking out clubs like the Torch in Stoke whey they played the lesser known music which obviously became know as Northern Soul.

Going back to what I was saying about it being media driven and people (for want of a better phrase) jumping on the bandwagon then Tainted Loved is perhaps a shining example of this. No radio DJ's ever played Gloria Jones's original version so no air time / hyping meant no sales. A decade or so later comes along the far inferior Soft Cell attempt and with the right hype and air time loads of people buy it which rather illustrates what I was trying to say by how easily people are manipulated into "liking" certain music.

Another example, not Northern, would be the original version of Love Rollercoaster. If I played that on the pub jukebox prior to the cover everybody would have turned their collective noses up at it because they didn't know The Ohio Players. Release practically the same song by a hyped Red Hot Chili Peppers and all of a sudden everybody thinks it's a great tune.

I however do agree with other posters on here that music is a very personal thing and I would never talk down someone else's taste, I just wonder sometimes do they really like what they are listening to or have they just accepted it because it was the easy way out.

Agree Jones version is 'better'. I don't think we need to justify our reason why, there's no set of rules or equations that explain why, it's enough just to know.

pblakeney

meursault wrote:

I don't think we need to justify our reason why, there's no set of rules or equations that explain why, it's enough just to know.

Cos it's subjective like, innit.

mrfpb

The " Northern Soul" example is a great example of music snobbery in action. Kudos went to DJs based on the obscurity of the records they played. Gloria Jones' Tainted Love was at least 10 years old when the DJs started playing it. They would never have played it if was a hit. There were no musicians, songwriters or producers involved in Northern Soul, ie no creative development until bands like Soft Cell and The Fall started showing the influence of Northern Soul later on. Soft Cell's Tainted Love was a great example of doing an original sounding cover version. It stands on its own as a classic of what I call the "boffin+diva" acts of the early 80's - inspired by the Georgia Moroder/Donna Summer hits.

webboo

I had never heard of Pet Sounds the album until this thread although I know a lot of the tracks on it.

Frank Wilson

mrfpb wrote:

The " Northern Soul" example is a great example of music snobbery in action. Kudos went to DJs based on the obscurity of the records they played. Gloria Jones' Tainted Love was at least 10 years old when the DJs started playing it. They would never have played it if was a hit. There were no musicians, songwriters or producers involved in Northern Soul, ie no creative development until bands like Soft Cell and The Fall started showing the influence of Northern Soul later on. Soft Cell's Tainted Love was a great example of doing an original sounding cover version. It stands on its own as a classic of what I call the "boffin+diva" acts of the early 80's - inspired by the Georgia Moroder/Donna Summer hits.[/quot

meursault

mrfpb wrote:

The " Northern Soul" example is a great example of music snobbery in action. Kudos went to DJs based on the obscurity of the records they played. Gloria Jones' Tainted Love was at least 10 years old when the DJs started playing it. They would never have played it if was a hit. There were no musicians, songwriters or producers involved in Northern Soul, ie no creative development until bands like Soft Cell and The Fall started showing the influence of Northern Soul later on. Soft Cell's Tainted Love was a great example of doing an original sounding cover version. It stands on its own as a classic of what I call the "boffin+diva" acts of the early 80's - inspired by the Georgia Moroder/Donna Summer hits.

Not snobbery in my case. Soft cell version lacks soul and vocal ability, but I understand that is just my opinion. Some cover versions are awesome, Japans I second that emotion for example.

giantorangedale

Reading this while watching an old Top of the Pops and low and behold what should come on but Tainted Love.

crispybug2

meursault wrote:

mrfpb wrote:

The " Northern Soul" example is a great example of music snobbery in action. Kudos went to DJs based on the obscurity of the records they played. Gloria Jones' Tainted Love was at least 10 years old when the DJs started playing it. They would never have played it if was a hit. There were no musicians, songwriters or producers involved in Northern Soul, ie no creative development until bands like Soft Cell and The Fall started showing the influence of Northern Soul later on. Soft Cell's Tainted Love was a great example of doing an original sounding cover version. It stands on its own as a classic of what I call the "boffin+diva" acts of the early 80's - inspired by the Georgia Moroder/Donna Summer hits.

Not snobbery in my case. Soft cell version lacks soul and vocal ability, but I understand that is just my opinion. Some cover versions are awesome, Japans I second that emotion for example.

My opinion (and that is all this thread is about) is that Soft Cell's version stands up very well after over 35 years, Marc Almond has a plaintive quality, the influence of torch singers is evident whereas Japan's version of I Second That Emotion is very vanilla, David Sylvian has a pretty insipid voice which was better utilized on tracks such as Ghosts and Forbidden Colours.


I'm a big fan of Northern Soul although I didn't get into until long after it's heyday because I was just a child then, put simply I'd never heard of it until Dexys did Geno. The first information I got was from my dad who was a bouncer at a Midlands nightclub called The Castaways which was on the Northern Soul circuit, Geno Washington and his Ram Jam Band played there and he thought they were a bit crap.

Frank Wilson

mrfpb wrote:

The " Northern Soul" example is a great example of music snobbery in action. Kudos went to DJs based on the obscurity of the records they played. Gloria Jones' Tainted Love was at least 10 years old when the DJs started playing it. They would never have played it if was a hit. There were no musicians, songwriters or producers involved in Northern Soul, ie no creative development until bands like Soft Cell and The Fall started showing the influence of Northern Soul later on. Soft Cell's Tainted Love was a great example of doing an original sounding cover version. It stands on its own as a classic of what I call the "boffin+diva" acts of the early 80's - inspired by the Georgia Moroder/Donna Summer hits.

No musicians??? Just to clarify can you list me five songs which you consider to be Northern soul.

crispybug2

Great idea

Top 5 Northern Soul songs, I’ll start...

1) So Is The Sun - World Column
2) Do I Love You - Frank Wilson
3) Better Use Your Head - Anthony And The Imperials
4) Ain’t Nothing But A Houseparty - The Showstoppers
5) The Snake - Al Wilson

Also, controversially, I was tempted to include Happy by Pharrell Williams, which is by definition a Northern Soul song and a bloody good one!!

mrfpb

Frank Wilson wrote:

mrfpb wrote:

The " Northern Soul" example is a great example of music snobbery in action. Kudos went to DJs based on the obscurity of the records they played. Gloria Jones' Tainted Love was at least 10 years old when the DJs started playing it. They would never have played it if was a hit. There were no musicians, songwriters or producers involved in Northern Soul, ie no creative development until bands like Soft Cell and The Fall started showing the influence of Northern Soul later on. Soft Cell's Tainted Love was a great example of doing an original sounding cover version. It stands on its own as a classic of what I call the "boffin+diva" acts of the early 80's - inspired by the Georgia Moroder/Donna Summer hits.

No musicians??? Just to clarify can you list me five songs which you consider to be Northern soul.

None that were made in the Wigan or the North of England. They all came from America- Detroit, Philly, Memphis.

Compared to Merseybeat or Manchester or Two Tone or the Midlands heavy metal scene it was a creative graveyard, relying on digging up long forgotten records of the 60s. It didn'the inspire its participants to make music in the way that Ska and Reggae did in London and the Midlands, to make the most relevant comparison. It relied on "my music is more obscure than yours" for kudos when Motown and Philly were all over the airwaves anyway.

Frank Wilson

Nobody ever said these people came from the north of England, the term, started by Dave Godin was used as that is where the music became popular. But to say no musicians is an incredible statement. It was the heavily orchestrated sound that first got me into the music, played by real musicians, no computer generated backing or drum machines back in the day.

pblakeney

I always thought Northern Soul got its name as the artists were from the northern states as opposed to Memphis etc. That they were obscure was part of the appeal. I was probably wrong.

mrfpb

PBlakeney wrote:

I always thought Northern Soul got its name as the artists were from the northern states as opposed to Memphis etc. That they were obscure was part of the appeal. I was probably wrong.

That's the point. Gloria Jones will always be better than Soft Cell in some people's eyes (ears) because her record is more obscure. However obscurity has no more musical merit than popularlity.The valueing of obscurity is the musical snobbery I was referring to. The music itself is fantastic.

To get back on topic, Lennon, McCartney and Harrison used to bus around Liverpool to visit merchant sailors who had picked up the latest Buddy Holly or Chuck Berry record in America. They then listened to it until they'd learnt the chords and words then added the song to their setlist. The same principle of tracking down hard to find gems, but the difference is what that music inspired them (and other Liverpool bands) to create. In a form of cultural payback, Jimi Hendrix was given of a preview copy of Sgt Pepper and learnt and performed the title track in his show the day the album was released.

Frank Wilson

PBlakeney wrote:

I always thought Northern Soul got its name as the artists were from the northern states as opposed to Memphis etc. That they were obscure was part of the appeal. I was probably wrong.

Northern Soul got its name from people from the north going down to London for football matches and combining the football trip with some record buying at independent shops in London. One such shop belonged to Dave Godin, who later on wrote for Blues and Soul magazine. The trippers from the north always asked him for faster dance records as opposed to Southern Soul / Funk and it was Dave who first coined the phrase Northern Soul after all the northerners which were buying it.

BelgianBeerGeek

Back OT: Beatles. Beach Boys appeal to afternoon BBQing dilettantes and are shallow and boring. Sgt Pepper is about the most influential album ever made. And it's interesting because it's a bit weird. Get it out now, and have a listen. It is properly interesting. The Beach Boys are not. Stop pretending they are.
And no, it's not my favourite Beatles album either.
Can we stop this "argument" now?

pblakeney

Frank Wilson wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

I always thought Northern Soul got its name as the artists were from the northern states as opposed to Memphis etc. That they were obscure was part of the appeal. I was probably wrong.

Northern Soul got its name from people from the north going down to London for football matches and combining the football trip with some record buying at independent shops in London. One such shop belonged to Dave Godin, who later on wrote for Blues and Soul magazine. The trippers from the north always asked him for faster dance records as opposed to Southern Soul / Funk and it was Dave who first coined the phrase Northern Soul after all the northerners which were buying it.

I will happily bow down to someone who knows more than me. As an aside, isn’t it true that the Beach Boys popularity is based on White US radio stations not playing black music? Beatles & Elvis too come to that...

Frank Wilson

PBlakeney wrote:

Frank Wilson wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

I always thought Northern Soul got its name as the artists were from the northern states as opposed to Memphis etc. That they were obscure was part of the appeal. I was probably wrong.

Northern Soul got its name from people from the north going down to London for football matches and combining the football trip with some record buying at independent shops in London. One such shop belonged to Dave Godin, who later on wrote for Blues and Soul magazine. The trippers from the north always asked him for faster dance records as opposed to Southern Soul / Funk and it was Dave pwho first coined the phrase Northern Soul after all the northerners which were buying it.

I will happily bow down to someone who knows more than me. As an aside, isn’t it true that the Beach Boys popularity is based on White US radio stations not playing black music? Beatles & Elvis too come to that...

You could well be correct there as a lot of early hits for UK bands were covers of black America which had done nothing probably down to the lack of air time.

kingstongraham

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

Back OT: Beatles. Beach Boys appeal to afternoon BBQing dilettantes and are shallow and boring. Sgt Pepper is about the most influential album ever made. And it's interesting because it's a bit weird. Get it out now, and have a listen. It is properly interesting. The Beach Boys are not. Stop pretending they are.
And no, it's not my favourite Beatles album either.
Can we stop this "argument" now?

You don't think Pet Sounds is a bit weird? Not as weird as Smile, but it's not normal. You've been distracted by how easy it is to listen to and the fantastic music/lyrics/arrangements.

pblakeney

KingstonGraham wrote:

You don't think Pet Sounds is a bit weird? Not as weird as Smile, but it's not normal. You've been distracted by how easy it is to listen to and the fantastic music/lyrics/arrangements.

The ultimate compliment for including something experimental is when people don't notice...
It may not sound very different today, but it was when it was released.

Frank Wilson

crispybug2 wrote:

Great idea

Top 5 Northern Soul songs, I’ll start...

1) So Is The Sun - World Column
2) Do I Love You - Frank Wilson
3) Better Use Your Head - Anthony And The Imperials
4) Ain’t Nothing But A Houseparty - The Showstoppers
5) The Snake - Al Wilson

Also, controversially, I was tempted to include Happy by Pharrell Williams, which is by definition a Northern Soul song and a bloody good one!!

It is a re-working of an old northern tune by a band called Velvet Hammer crispy.

pblakeney

PBlakeney wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

You don't think Pet Sounds is a bit weird? Not as weird as Smile, but it's not normal. You've been distracted by how easy it is to listen to and the fantastic music/lyrics/arrangements.

The ultimate compliment for including something experimental is when people don't notice...
It may not sound very different today, but it was when it was released.

I gave it a listen to, in full, to re acquaint my self. Supremely produced but the tracks are a bit samey in my opinion but mostly it is in a key which seems to annoy me for some reason.
Sgt. Peppers today...

ayjaycee

mrfpb wrote:

It relied on "my music is more obscure than yours" for kudos when Motown and Philly were all over the airwaves anyway.

Sorry to diverge from the original topic (again) but please do not mention Motown and Philly in the same sentence. My humble opinion would be that the 'golden age' of Tamla Motown had finished by the time that the so-called sound of Philadelphia emerged - I think that really started with TSOP which was originally written by Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff as the theme for Soul Train around 1973/74. Again, just my opinion but I also believe that the golden ages of soul music from both Atlantic and Stax were also over by the time that the Philly sound came to prominence - I would also hesitate to call it '[Philly] soul music'.

mrfpb

ayjaycee wrote:

mrfpb wrote:

It relied on "my music is more obscure than yours" for kudos when Motown and Philly were all over the airwaves anyway.

Sorry to diverge from the original topic (again) but please do not mention Motown and Philly in the same sentence. My humble opinion would be that the 'golden age' of Tamla Motown had finished by the time that the so-called sound of Philadelphia emerged - I think that really started with TSOP which was originally written by Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff as the theme for Soul Train around 1973/74. Again, just my opinion but I also believe that the golden ages of soul music from both Atlantic and Stax were also over by the time that the Philly sound came to prominence - I would also hesitate to call it '[Philly] soul music'.

Each to his own. Personally I find the 70s output of Stevie Wonder, Diana Ross and Marvin Gaye to be far superior to the generic 60s sound (by which I mean songs like "Uptight" which would have sounded the same whichever Motown artist recorded it). Of course Gaye and Ross left Motown in the 70s, but their music really improved over the course of the decade.

kingstongraham

PBlakeney wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

You don't think Pet Sounds is a bit weird? Not as weird as Smile, but it's not normal. You've been distracted by how easy it is to listen to and the fantastic music/lyrics/arrangements.

The ultimate compliment for including something experimental is when people don't notice...
It may not sound very different today, but it was when it was released.

I gave it a listen to, in full, to re acquaint my self. Supremely produced but the tracks are a bit samey in my opinion but mostly it is in a key which seems to annoy me for some reason.
Sgt. Peppers today...

Have you listened to Brian Wilson's attempt to remake Smile a few years back? Imagine what that could have been.