Better palmares 2: Sagan vs. Kwiatkowski
Comments
-
-
This is also a quality vs quantity debate (albeit it's an oxymoron to not deem wins, quality in cycling).
It comes down to how you weigh the green jersey and sprint victories and world championships and monuments and big 1 day classics like Strade Bianche against each other. That is the point of all of these.
Personally, I think Sagan comes ahead mainly due to his WC titles. If Strade Bianche for example was considered a monument, I think most of us would have Kwiatkowski ahead. That's why I feel it isn't quite as clear cut on closer examination.
It mainly comes down to how each of us weigh these victories against each other, because eventually we will not just compare riders like Cav vs. Cipollini or Cancellara vs. Boonen, but also climbers vs. sprinters etc.
It's more about viewpoints than being objectively correct.PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 20230 -
Kwiatkowski has never won a GT stage, compared to Sagan's 23.
As much as I rate Kwiatkowski, he's not in Sagan's league.0 -
This one's not a fair fight.0
-
I reckon over their careers to date Sagan is clearly ahead. But in 2017 kwiatkowski is a fair way ahead. I rate him as the best cyclist in the world, followed by Valverde. I find it a bit simple of people to suggest that Sagan is by far the best rider in the world."Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago0
-
But Sagan can do wheeliesgsk82 wrote:I reckon over their careers to date Sagan is clearly ahead. But in 2017 kwiatkowski is a fair way ahead. I rate him as the best cyclist in the world, followed by Valverde. I find it a bit simple of people to suggest that Sagan is by far the best rider in the world.
They're still both young - 27. Sean Kelly didn't make the podium at a monument until he was 27.Twitter: @RichN950 -
Juraj or Peter
0 -
andyp wrote:Kwiatkowski has never won a GT stage, compared to Sagan's 23.
As much as I rate Kwiatkowski, he's not in Sagan's league.
Sagan almost always gets to ride for himself in GT stages.
How often can that be said of Kwia?
As someone else said, in 2 up head to heads Kwia wins.
Sagan has the better palmares due to the sheer quantity of wins, though.0 -
Without checking, I'd wager if you stripped out all Sagan's wins that one could considering 'padding', he'll still have a better palamares.
Also Kwiatkowski is a Skybot.“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
It'd be a hell of a lot closer if Sagan hadn't won the last three World Championships in succession.
Exclude those (or hell, two of them) and it's close. Include those and it's no contest IMHO.
Ridiculous achievement from Sagan. Not Normal ;-)0 -
I think you'd have to take out the 12 GT stage wins as well as 2 world championships to make it close.0
-
although Kwia is a domesteque for Froome so he doesn't get the chance to ride for stages \ green jersey.KingstonGraham wrote:I think you'd have to take out the 12 GT stage wins as well as 2 world championships to make it close.
Have to say Sagan would be a clear winner for me, although I like both riders0 -
sherer wrote:
although Kwia is a domesteque for Froome so he doesn't get the chance to ride for stages \ green jersey.KingstonGraham wrote:I think you'd have to take out the 12 GT stage wins as well as 2 world championships to make it close.
Have to say Sagan would be a clear winner for me, although I like both riders
I know - not comparing them as riders, just the palmares.0 -
Sagan for me, even if Strade Bianchi was a monument Sagan would still edge it and I think the gap will grow over their careers. Sagan should really be looking at ending up with half a dozen monuments excluding his world champs wins.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0
-
3 WC is what makes it easier. Absolutely no content. Sagan any day of the week.0
-
andyp wrote:andyp wrote:Kwiatkowski has never won a GT stage, compared to Sagan's 23.
As much as I rate Kwiatkowski, he's not in Sagan's league.
I'm callling myself out on this one, Sagan has won 12 GT stages (8 x TdeF, 4 x Vuelta), not 23.
Were you including California?“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
TailWindHome wrote:
No, I'd misread his 15 Tour de Suisse stage wins as Tour of Spain. :oops:0 -
Better palmares - Sagan, no question. I do genuinely think Kwiatkowski is a better rider though, it's just the areas where he's better don't get him victories whereas the areas where Sagan's better do.
I did enjoy watching Kwiatkowski turning himself inside out for somebody else when he could legitimately just point to his WC stripes and 1 day victories and say "mountain train? me? yeah,about that..." Instead he put in a performance as a domestique which was almost as impressive as any of his actual victories and gained a lot of respect for doing so. I can't see Sagan doing the same - which isn't a criticism of Sagan, more like highlighting that Kwiatkowski went above and beyond really.0 -
Sagan. It's not a debate.It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.0
-
jam1e wrote:Better palmares - Sagan, no question. I do genuinely think Kwiatkowski is a better rider though, it's just the areas where he's better don't get him victories whereas the areas where Sagan's better do.
I did enjoy watching Kwiatkowski turning himself inside out for somebody else when he could legitimately just point to his WC stripes and 1 day victories and say "mountain train? me? yeah,about that..." Instead he put in a performance as a domestique which was almost as impressive as any of his actual victories and gained a lot of respect for doing so. I can't see Sagan doing the same - which isn't a criticism of Sagan, more like highlighting that Kwiatkowski went above and beyond really.
The thing is Sagan is in the hunt for green and so on mountain stages saves his energy for that. Kwiatkiwski is there as a domestique. It's different jobs for different riders so not a fair comparison. Bora don't even have a GC rider for Sagan to sacrifice himself for. He has done leadout work for Bennett before though, much to the confusion of Ligget and Kirby0 -
I seem to recall Sagan having done the occasional job for a GC rider in his team before as well (Contador and Nibali on the odd day here and there?).
What percentage of each of their professional racing days have been ridden in service of another rider's ambitions rather than their own? I bet Kwiatowski's % would be significantly higher. Partly because he's probably slightly less versatile than Sagan.0 -
So prediction time: who will have won more monuments at the end of their career?
Cancellara and Boonen retiring helps Sagan. Valverde eventually retiring helps Kwiatkowski, albeit Nibali being so strong in Lombardia makes it harder since he has a good shot only at LBL whereas Sagan has MSR, RVV and PR.PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 20230 -
M.R.M. wrote:So prediction time: who will have won more monuments at the end of their career?
Cancellara and Boonen retiring helps Sagan. Valverde eventually retiring helps Kwiatkowski, albeit Nibali being so strong in Lombardia makes it harder since he has a good shot only at LBL whereas Sagan has MSR, RVV and PR.
Kwiatkowski already has 1 MSR....“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
It would be interesting to see a ranking based on prize money won...“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0
-
I am aware. He is hardly a favourite for it every year.TailWindHome wrote:M.R.M. wrote:So prediction time: who will have won more monuments at the end of their career?
Cancellara and Boonen retiring helps Sagan. Valverde eventually retiring helps Kwiatkowski, albeit Nibali being so strong in Lombardia makes it harder since he has a good shot only at LBL whereas Sagan has MSR, RVV and PR.
Kwiatkowski already has 1 MSR....PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 20230
