England Under 17s forced to wear sports bras

2

Comments

  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,921
    Pinno wrote:
    bompington wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    PS. I can't believe people are explaining what the bras are, it's completely obvious to anyone with half a brain :)
    To the nearest whole letter, half a brain is a bra isn't it?

    You're obviously not an accountant or else it would be rounded down to 'br'.

    Sorry, what's this thread about?

    Unless it was his invoice then he would round it up to cerebellum.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 51,196
    Ballysmate wrote:
    Pinno wrote:
    bompington wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    PS. I can't believe people are explaining what the bras are, it's completely obvious to anyone with half a brain :)
    To the nearest whole letter, half a brain is a bra isn't it?

    You're obviously not an accountant or else it would be rounded down to 'br'.

    Sorry, what's this thread about?

    Unless it was his invoice then he would round it up to cerebellum progressus sumptus menses plus.

    FTFY.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • Matthewfalle
    Matthewfalle Posts: 17,380
    rjsterry wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    There was a lot of immaturity on show in that respect from a few of the England lot.
    That would be the under-17 bit.

    Nah - that would be the engerlish footballer bit.
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    rjsterry wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    There was a lot of immaturity on show in that respect from a few of the England lot.
    That would be the under-17 bit.

    Nah - that would be the engerlish footballer bit.

    Absolutely.

    This lot are supposed to be receiving the best training, not just on how to play but controlling temperament. But for all that, they act like d1cks.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 51,196
    mfin wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    There was a lot of immaturity on show in that respect from a few of the England lot.
    That would be the under-17 bit.

    Nah - that would be the engerlish footballer bit.

    Absolutely.

    This lot are supposed to be receiving the best training, not just on how to play but controlling temperament. But for all that, they act like d1cks.

    Yeah; they have great mentors: Rooney, John Terry, Joey Barton...
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    Pinno wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    There was a lot of immaturity on show in that respect from a few of the England lot.
    That would be the under-17 bit.

    Nah - that would be the engerlish footballer bit.

    Absolutely.

    This lot are supposed to be receiving the best training, not just on how to play but controlling temperament. But for all that, they act like d1cks.

    Yeah; they have great mentors: Rooney, John Terry, Joey Barton...

    I don't think they are mentors.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 51,196
    For want of a better word for people to look up to, you know what I am saying.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,597
    Pinno wrote:
    For want of a better word for people to look up to, you know what I am saying.
    Idols obviously wouldn't work.
    Peers?
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • PBlakeney wrote:
    Pinno wrote:
    For want of a better word for people to look up to, you know what I am saying.
    Idols obviously wouldn't work.
    Peers?

    if we relaxed the rules and allowed two words

    role models?
  • orraloon
    orraloon Posts: 12,612
    Pinno wrote:
    Sorry, what's this thread about?
    If I understand it correctly, it's about EU 'Elf-n-safety-gorn-mad forcing cross-dressing immigrants to play football for England and win summat. Might have some details a bit hazy.
  • Not many of them are actually English.

    Goalkeeper – Curtis Anderson – Born in England
    Steven Sessegnon – Born, Roehampton, England
    Joel Latibeaudiere – Born, Doncaster, England
    Marc Guehi – Born Ivory Coast – has played for Chelsea since Under-8s
    Jon Panzo – Born, London, England
    Tashan Oakley-Boothe - Born, Lambeth, England
    George McEachran – Born Kirtlington, Oxfordshire, England (scottish parents)
    Phil Foden – Born, Stockport, England
    Morgan Gibbs-White – Born Stafford, England
    Callum Hudson-Odoi, Born London – Dual nationality – could play for Ghana
    Rhian Brewster – Born, London England
    GET WHEEZY - WALNUT LUNG RACING TEAM™
  • Not many of them are actually English.

    Goalkeeper – Curtis Anderson – Born in England
    Steven Sessegnon – Born, Roehampton, England
    Joel Latibeaudiere – Born, Doncaster, England
    Marc Guehi – Born Ivory Coast – has played for Chelsea since Under-8s
    Jon Panzo – Born, London, England
    Tashan Oakley-Boothe - Born, Lambeth, England
    George McEachran – Born Kirtlington, Oxfordshire, England (scottish parents)
    Phil Foden – Born, Stockport, England
    Morgan Gibbs-White – Born Stafford, England
    Callum Hudson-Odoi, Born London – Dual nationality – could play for Ghana
    Rhian Brewster – Born, London England[/quote

    so none of them moved over here to qualify through residency?

    Frank - you still have not posted up a link to your sources
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,719
    It is interesting how many of te England youth set ups are black or mixed race. I am in no way suggesting that equates to not English or that it's somehow a negative but it is quite strikingiven the racial makeup of the country. Similarly the almost complete lack of professional players from British asian backgrounds. It's something that, perhaps for understandable reasons, isn't discussed very much.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • lostboysaint
    lostboysaint Posts: 4,250
    It is interesting how many of te England youth set ups are black or mixed race. I am in no way suggesting that equates to not English or that it's somehow a negative but it is quite strikingiven the racial makeup of the country. Similarly the almost complete lack of professional players from British asian backgrounds. It's something that, perhaps for understandable reasons, isn't discussed very much.

    More often than not it's socio-economic background*

    *because kids with Playstations tend to play FIFA! This isn't a generalisation, it's becoming more and more evident. The quality of footballers unsurprisingly reflects what other distractions they have and it's unusual for any of the higher socio-economic groups to produce them in volume. (This is where someone trots out Frank Lampard or James Ward-Prowse as the obvious exceptions) Been through all the research when doing my coaching courses.
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  • It is interesting how many of te England youth set ups are black or mixed race. I am in no way suggesting that equates to not English or that it's somehow a negative but it is quite strikingiven the racial makeup of the country. Similarly the almost complete lack of professional players from British asian backgrounds. It's something that, perhaps for understandable reasons, isn't discussed very much.

    More often than not it's socio-economic background*

    *because kids with Playstations tend to play FIFA! This isn't a generalisation, it's becoming more and more evident. The quality of footballers unsurprisingly reflects what other distractions they have and it's unusual for any of the higher socio-economic groups to produce them in volume. (This is where someone trots out Frank Lampard or James Ward-Prowse as the obvious exceptions) Been through all the research when doing my coaching courses.

    The chance of making it big as a footballer is odds akin to winning the lottery and until very recently entailed ditching your education. British Asians value education too highly to encourage their children to take this career path. This can be seen in cricket where it is still possible to attend university before progressing into the professional ranks
  • lostboysaint
    lostboysaint Posts: 4,250
    It is interesting how many of te England youth set ups are black or mixed race. I am in no way suggesting that equates to not English or that it's somehow a negative but it is quite strikingiven the racial makeup of the country. Similarly the almost complete lack of professional players from British asian backgrounds. It's something that, perhaps for understandable reasons, isn't discussed very much.

    More often than not it's socio-economic background*

    *because kids with Playstations tend to play FIFA! This isn't a generalisation, it's becoming more and more evident. The quality of footballers unsurprisingly reflects what other distractions they have and it's unusual for any of the higher socio-economic groups to produce them in volume. (This is where someone trots out Frank Lampard or James Ward-Prowse as the obvious exceptions) Been through all the research when doing my coaching courses.

    The chance of making it big as a footballer is odds akin to winning the lottery and until very recently entailed ditching your education. British Asians value education too highly to encourage their children to take this career path. This can be seen in cricket where it is still possible to attend university before progressing into the professional ranks

    Is a stereotypical, but quite accurate, summary. With the improvement in education within a number of PL clubs it's not quite as true now - and the cricket comparison isn't relevant anymore as the professionalism in that game has changed it in the same manner - but it's still widely held that "you can't do both".
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  • Matthewfalle
    Matthewfalle Posts: 17,380
    Not many of them are actually English.

    Goalkeeper – Curtis Anderson – Born in England
    Steven Sessegnon – Born, Roehampton, England
    Joel Latibeaudiere – Born, Doncaster, England
    Marc Guehi – Born Ivory Coast – has played for Chelsea since Under-8s
    Jon Panzo – Born, London, England
    Tashan Oakley-Boothe - Born, Lambeth, England
    George McEachran – Born Kirtlington, Oxfordshire, England (scottish parents)
    Phil Foden – Born, Stockport, England
    Morgan Gibbs-White – Born Stafford, England
    Callum Hudson-Odoi, Born London – Dual nationality – could play for Ghana
    Rhian Brewster – Born, London England[/quote

    so none of them moved over here to qualify through residency?

    Frank - you still have not posted up a link to your sources

    because he hasn't got any. he just thinks they don't look or have enggeeerlish enough names.
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 51,196
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Pinno wrote:
    For want of a better word for people to look up to, you know what I am saying.
    Idols obviously wouldn't work.

    Precisely.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,597
    Pinno wrote:
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Pinno wrote:
    For want of a better word for people to look up to, you know what I am saying.
    Idols obviously wouldn't work.

    Precisely.
    No, peers.
    Can't you read? :lol:
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 51,196
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Pinno wrote:
    PBlakeney wrote:
    Pinno wrote:
    For want of a better word for people to look up to, you know what I am saying.
    Idols obviously wouldn't work.

    Precisely.
    No, peers.
    Can't you read? :lol:

    :D
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,719
    It is interesting how many of te England youth set ups are black or mixed race. I am in no way suggesting that equates to not English or that it's somehow a negative but it is quite strikingiven the racial makeup of the country. Similarly the almost complete lack of professional players from British asian backgrounds. It's something that, perhaps for understandable reasons, isn't discussed very much.

    More often than not it's socio-economic background*

    *because kids with Playstations tend to play FIFA! This isn't a generalisation, it's becoming more and more evident. The quality of footballers unsurprisingly reflects what other distractions they have and it's unusual for any of the higher socio-economic groups to produce them in volume. (This is where someone trots out Frank Lampard or James Ward-Prowse as the obvious exceptions) Been through all the research when doing my coaching courses.

    I disagree, to put it in simple terms there are more white kids from poorer backgrounds than there are black kids. If it were socio economic we might expect black kids to have a greater than average chance of becoming a footballer but not anything like them outnumbering white kids 8 to 3 which is what we saw in the u17 final.

    It's also a huge generalisation to say Asian families value education and that explains why virtually none make it as footballers - are we to assume all asian families value education - in which case why do they have a presence in criminal gangs, drugs trade etc - and are we to assume nobody whose family values education becomes a footballer.

    Clearly these are at best only very partial explanations.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • lostboysaint
    lostboysaint Posts: 4,250
    It's your right to disagree, however that's the result of just about every study that's been carried out by the FA (and others) into youth participation. They're not "partial explanations" which is why your comment about "nobody whose family values education becomes a footballer" is amusing. It's easy to trot out public schoolboy Frank Lampard or barrister's son James Ward-Prowse (who's education at both school and the Saints Academy resulted in excellent grades in his exams) but the fact is that most footballers do not have that background.
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  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,719
    It's your right to disagree, however that's the result of just about every study that's been carried out by the FA (and others) into youth participation. They're not "partial explanations" which is why your comment about "nobody whose family values education becomes a footballer" is amusing. It's easy to trot out public schoolboy Frank Lampard or barrister's son James Ward-Prowse (who's education at both school and the Saints Academy resulted in excellent grades in his exams) but the fact is that most footballers do not have that background.


    Hmmm. I think you miss my point. If it is purely a socio economic explanation you'd still expect white kids to massively outnumber black kids as while black families may be more likely to be worse off than white families, in absolute numbers poor white kids still outnumber poor black kids by a large amount because England has a relatively small black population - I'm not using black to include all non-white ethnicities here. Wikipedia suggests about 90% white and 2.3% black - clearly economic background can't explain the ethnic makeup of football academies.

    I'm also dubious of the argument middle class kids can afford PS4s and poorer kids only have a football and the streets.

    I'm interested in these studies though if you could point me in the direction of them? What you say are their findings don't chime with my experience working in school sport, running a youth football team and having had a daughter in the girls FA academy system. Have you got any links or names of studies?
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,719
    It's your right to disagree, however that's the result of just about every study that's been carried out by the FA (and others) into youth participation. They're not "partial explanations" which is why your comment about "nobody whose family values education becomes a footballer" is amusing. It's easy to trot out public schoolboy Frank Lampard or barrister's son James Ward-Prowse (who's education at both school and the Saints Academy resulted in excellent grades in his exams) but the fact is that most footballers do not have that background.

    Not sure why you find it amusing. If the argument made earlier is that we don't have British Asian footballers because their families value education then how come we do get non-Asian players whose families valued education? It may be a partial explanation, it may explain a lower proportion of Asians getting into the pro ranks, but it can't fully explain the virtual absence of British Asian pros. I don't think anyone with even a passing interest in sociology would go with you on that.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • lostboysaint
    lostboysaint Posts: 4,250
    It's your right to disagree, however that's the result of just about every study that's been carried out by the FA (and others) into youth participation. They're not "partial explanations" which is why your comment about "nobody whose family values education becomes a footballer" is amusing. It's easy to trot out public schoolboy Frank Lampard or barrister's son James Ward-Prowse (who's education at both school and the Saints Academy resulted in excellent grades in his exams) but the fact is that most footballers do not have that background.


    Hmmm. I think you miss my point. If it is purely a socio economic explanation you'd still expect white kids to massively outnumber black kids as while black families may be more likely to be worse off than white families, in absolute numbers poor white kids still outnumber poor black kids by a large amount because England has a relatively small black population - I'm not using black to include all non-white ethnicities here. Wikipedia suggests about 90% white and 2.3% black - clearly economic background can't explain the ethnic makeup of football academies.

    I'm also dubious of the argument middle class kids can afford PS4s and poorer kids only have a football and the streets.

    I'm interested in these studies though if you could point me in the direction of them? What you say are their findings don't chime with my experience working in school sport, running a youth football team and having had a daughter in the girls FA academy system. Have you got any links or names of studies?

    I'll dig out my notes and find the references for you.

    And as someone who's done the same (and gone a long way further) it's an obvious observation that you're not necessarily going to see anything as pretty much anything you'll be involved with short of PL Academy/School of Excellence* will have a very strong regional bias and if the region you're in is predominantly white MC etc.....

    *at that point it becomes far more relevant because whilst they have geographical limitations they "manage" them very well indeed and you start to see the diversity that isn't immediately apparent at grass roots level.

    Congrats to the daughter, good work!
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  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,719

    I'll dig out my notes and find the references for you.

    And as someone who's done the same (and gone a long way further) it's an obvious observation that you're not necessarily going to see anything as pretty much anything you'll be involved with short of PL Academy/School of Excellence* will have a very strong regional bias and if the region you're in is predominantly white MC etc.....

    *at that point it becomes far more relevant because whilst they have geographical limitations they "manage" them very well indeed and you start to see the diversity that isn't immediately apparent at grass roots level.

    Congrats to the daughter, good work!

    Well with respect it's a fact that the ethnic make up of English football academies is not explainable by economic background. Some ethnicities are massively over represented, others massively under represented even taking economic background into account.

    That means there has to be other factors at play. I would suggest the kind of questions to be asked are, in no particular order:
    - are some ethnicities genetically better athletes
    - do some ethnicities mature earlier - we know that being older within your age group is a significant advantage so maturing earlier would give a similar advantage.
    - is there an element of academies stereotyping ethnicities as better athletes than other ethnicities - does this start earlier with schools, grassroots coaches etc. It's generally accepted that stereotypes can mitigate against some groups in many circumstances so it'd be odd if football were immune from this when it relies so much on subjective judgement at many stages.
    - is there a cultural bias in that families of some ethnicities push kids towards football more than others. I lived in Leicester for 10 years and saw far more cricket being played on the parks which obviously comes from the strong cricketing heritage in Pakistan, India and Bangladesh.
    - do kids of some ethnicities have a greater belief that they can make it as pros because of existing role models
    And no doubt the list goes on.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • veronese68
    veronese68 Posts: 27,252
    I would suggest the kind of questions to be asked are...
    - are some ethnicities genetically better athletes
    I too suspect that plays a large part in it. Different ethnicities tend to have different body types which favour different sports. A long distance runner is very different to a shot putter who is different to a swimmer. You then get an element of cultural influence on top of that I guess. Of course there are always exceptions and by the very nature of the question there has to be an amount of generalising.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,487
    Veronese68 wrote:
    I would suggest the kind of questions to be asked are...
    - are some ethnicities genetically better athletes
    I too suspect that plays a large part in it. Different ethnicities tend to have different body types which favour different sports. A long distance runner is very different to a shot putter who is different to a swimmer. You then get an element of cultural influence on top of that I guess. Of course there are always exceptions and by the very nature of the question there has to be an amount of generalising.
    I can't cite anything, but I'm sure I've read that this theory has been more or less debunked. Cultural factors are far more important.
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  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 8,719
    rjsterry wrote:
    Veronese68 wrote:
    I would suggest the kind of questions to be asked are...
    - are some ethnicities genetically better athletes
    I too suspect that plays a large part in it. Different ethnicities tend to have different body types which favour different sports. A long distance runner is very different to a shot putter who is different to a swimmer. You then get an element of cultural influence on top of that I guess. Of course there are always exceptions and by the very nature of the question there has to be an amount of generalising.
    I can't cite anything, but I'm sure I've read that this theory has been more or less debunked. Cultural factors are far more important.

    One of the regulars on pro race made the point, which I am taking at face value, that there exists in Africa a far greater genetic diversity than exists in Europe. The argument was something like there exists within the population of people with African heritage a bigger range of physical types so whilst the average may be no more talented than the average person of European heritage there will be more people at the extremes - and it's people at the extremes of physical talent that tend to become elite sports people.

    Apparently most top sprinters can trace their ancestors back to West Africa - if true then it's difficult to explain why that would be the case rather than say North, South or East Africa other than it being something genetic rather than cultural.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • rjsterry wrote:
    Veronese68 wrote:
    I would suggest the kind of questions to be asked are...
    - are some ethnicities genetically better athletes
    I too suspect that plays a large part in it. Different ethnicities tend to have different body types which favour different sports. A long distance runner is very different to a shot putter who is different to a swimmer. You then get an element of cultural influence on top of that I guess. Of course there are always exceptions and by the very nature of the question there has to be an amount of generalising.
    I can't cite anything, but I'm sure I've read that this theory has been more or less debunked. Cultural factors are far more important.

    One of the regulars on pro race made the point, which I am taking at face value, that there exists in Africa a far greater genetic diversity than exists in Europe. The argument was something like there exists within the population of people with African heritage a bigger range of physical types so whilst the average may be no more talented than the average person of European heritage there will be more people at the extremes - and it's people at the extremes of physical talent that tend to become elite sports people.

    Apparently most top sprinters can trace their ancestors back to West Africa - if true then it's difficult to explain why that would be the case rather than say North, South or East Africa other than it being something genetic rather than cultural.

    It has been argued that slavery acted as a form of natural selection as only the strongest survived the crossing and the slave owners indulged in selective breeding.