Sweet Spot - HR vs Power

CptKernow

Am planning on doing a fair bit of sweet spot training over the winter. I use Zwift a fair bit so have been doing their SST workouts which are over/under intervals of 30-40 minutes at around 85-95% FTP.

I can manage these, I did the 2hr one a few weeks back, but they feel hard. Looking at my heart rate this is up at around 90% of max.
Also I don't think I could put out this effort every day, which I thought was one of the main advantages of SST.

So, should I dial down the power a little and go aim to keep HR under 85%. Or should I just stick with the power and see how it goes?

imposter2.0

Depends what your objectives are. 'Sweetspot' is (by definition) not a very precise term.

svetty

CptKernow wrote:

..been doing their SST workouts which are over/under intervals of 30-40 minutes at around 85-95% FTP...

So not actually over/under intervals as you're always between 85% and 95% of FTP and never over it (assuming your FTP and 'anaerobic threshold'/MLSS level are roughly comparable - your FTP won't be over these).

CptKernow

Imposter wrote:

Depends what your objectives are. 'Sweetspot' is (by definition) not a very precise term.

Partly to keep things ticking over during the winter but also try to raise sustained power for next year. (If that is any less vague).

CptKernow

Svetty wrote:

So not actually over/under intervals as you're always between 85% and 95% of FTP and never over it

True.

imposter2.0

Svetty wrote:

CptKernow wrote:

..been doing their SST workouts which are over/under intervals of 30-40 minutes at around 85-95% FTP...

So not actually over/under intervals as you're always between 85% and 95% of FTP and never over it (assuming your FTP and 'anaerobic threshold'/MLSS level are roughly comparable - your FTP won't be over these).

Ironically, if that was %MHR as opposed to %FTP, the numbers would be about right

Midlands Grimpeur

I do a couple of rides per week at around 80-84% of max HR which is a similar intensity to Sweet Spot. This was on the advice of a coach who suggested it would be a good way to improve aerobic capacity. It has had the effect of raising FTP slightly but the larger impact has been an increase in gross efficiency and anaerobic threshold, I can basically ride for longer at a greater intensity than I ever could previously.

Dropping your HR down a notch might be worth a try as you should be able to complete longer and more regular sessions as you build fitness. You will still be riding at quite a high intensity so it should keep your fitness topped up over the winter and may increase your FTP a little as well.

burnthesheep

Over/unders aren't really sweetspot. Sweetspot is sweetspot.

Over/unders I've done, anyway, are usually anywhere from 3x9min up to 3x12min with 8min rest between intervals. Then the interval is at 100% of ftp for the "over" and it is about 86% for your "under". For example, an over could be 250w and the under 220w. You'd do 2under,1over,2under,1over..........until you reach 12min. But, you start the training plan with only 9min of this and only 3 of it being at ftp per interval. So you can do it. Then by the later weeks, you're at 12min intervals and spending 6min of time per interval at ftp.

Sweetspot is generally more like your "under" power from an over/under workout.

So in that case, the 220w.

For me, I usually find the one super long bike path in our city and hold sweetspot for an hour ride non-stop after warming up.

I'd say "sweetspot" would be akin to your 1 hour ftp number minus 5-8%. As most reasonable people test to 20 min.

Here is a picture of a page from my training book showing the % of ftp ranges. For these plans though, it's an 8min test and not 20. So the % zones are a lot harder. This could work for 20min test also:

poynedexter

my last ftp test on the turbo was a bit lower than expected but hey ho.

i did 252watts for 20 mins so my ftp is 95% = 240. my SS efforts are in and around 220 watts and for me this should be and is pretty doable for repeated efforts from 15 mins up. overdoing the intensity defeats the point of SS.

FWIW, my max heart rate is 190 bpm, and SS efforts can typically take my heart rate up to 168 over a 30 min interval. this feels like a 7/10, doable but you are working with smooth breathing.

CptKernow

Thanks for the replies.

From the consensus above I think I'll probably drop the intensity a little and aim to keep the HR at around the mid 160s
(~90%) towards the end of the intervals.

Think my indoor winter training will consist mostly of this and the odd Zwift race thrown in.

Alex_Simmons/RST

burnthesheep wrote:

Over/unders aren't really sweetspot. Sweetspot is sweetspot.

It might be better to refer to some items written by Frank Overton who is the guy that coined the term "sweetspot training" to understand what it entails.

SST entails quite a variety of things - it's essentially a concept of building training loads. Over/unders, solid group rides, motorpacing, intervals, racing, steady state efforts and so on can all form part of the sweetspot training diet. There's no hard and fast rules about it and SST intensity guidelines are more about overall sessions/efforts than moment by moment power.

We've been using such training as part of many people's training schedules for pretty much ever but have different names for such sessions.

As for the OP - I would suggest working out what training is appropriate for your needs and abilities. SST may form part of the picture but it won't be the whole story.

burnthesheep

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

SST entails quite a variety of things - it's essentially a concept of building training loads. Over/unders, solid group rides, motorpacing, intervals, racing, steady state efforts and so on can all form part of the sweetspot training diet.

I'm curious about the bolded above. I can concede that EM, SS, Ov/Und can all be part of an SS "diet". Makes sense.

I'm curious about what I bolded though.

I thought that the adaptations and things you're after in intervals can be very different depending on the intensity of the interval. Most road races or Crits will be like light switches on the efforts. On the power and off. Surges, bridging gaps, breaks, etc...

So how does that work out?

imposter2.0

Racing is also training, I suspect that's what Alex means. You could argue it's the most appropriate training of all..

Alex_Simmons/RST

Well I wouldn't call all-out 20 seconds sprint efforts a part of a typical SST session, but intervals come in all shapes and sizes, many of them would fit neatly into the very broad category of ride types that make up the SST universe.

As for racing, for sure much of the time you are not on the limit and the effort for longer periods or overall can often fall right into line with SST levels. They are often just solid endurance rides/workouts with occasional harder sections, much like riding with a group of better riders.

Alex_Simmons/RST

The most appropriate training is the training that best meets the objectives of the day, in the context of your goals, target events, overall training objectives, capabilities, psychology, training availability, conditions, and so on...