Bike weight
Comments
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Just buy a red one, everyone knows red things are the fastest.0
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A red aero one, on tubs..0
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Worth mentioning that Emma Pooley won the the KOM in Taiwan (QOM ? ) this weekend on an Aluminium Bond Bike
BASI Nordic Ski Instructor
Instagramme0 -
The weight thing is distracting from what is important to a newbie (we are in the beginners section after all).
As someone else posted recently - everything else being equal CF is more comfortable than Alu. So compare two frames like a Giant Defy, one alu, one CF and the CF is more comfortable to ride. Having both I know this for a fact.
So to the OP - what are you more likely to ride ? How long do you want to ride for etc etc? A kilo difference here or there will make naff all difference.0 -
Gimpl wrote:As someone else posted recently - everything else being equal CF is more comfortable than Alu. So compare two frames like a Giant Defy, one alu, one CF and the CF is more comfortable to ride. Having both I know this for a fact.
Surely you mean you know this for a 'subjective n=1 anecdote' - not an actual fact?0 -
When I stripped my aluminium Trek 1.5 and hung the parts onto a Ribble R872 I took it for a spin; the lack of "chatter" from the road surface was such that I thought the tyres had gone down and stopped at the roadside to check. Night and Day*.
*other users experiences may differ and no warranty can be inferred.0 -
Imposter wrote:Gimpl wrote:As someone else posted recently - everything else being equal CF is more comfortable than Alu. So compare two frames like a Giant Defy, one alu, one CF and the CF is more comfortable to ride. Having both I know this for a fact.
Surely you mean you know this for a 'subjective n=1 anecdote' - not an actual fact?
No - I have both.0 -
darkhairedlord wrote:When I stripped my aluminium Trek 1.5 and hung the parts onto a Ribble R872 I took it for a spin; the lack of "chatter" from the road surface was such that I thought the tyres had gone down and stopped at the roadside to check. Night and Day*.
*other users experiences may differ and no warranty can be inferred.
Exactly - I stripped everything off my Defy Composite 1 and put it on a Defy 1 frame and fork. Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Gimpl wrote:Imposter wrote:Gimpl wrote:As someone else posted recently - everything else being equal CF is more comfortable than Alu. So compare two frames like a Giant Defy, one alu, one CF and the CF is more comfortable to ride. Having both I know this for a fact.
Surely you mean you know this for a 'subjective n=1 anecdote' - not an actual fact?
No - I have both.
Yes, I get that you have both.0 -
Imposter wrote:Gimpl wrote:Imposter wrote:Gimpl wrote:As someone else posted recently - everything else being equal CF is more comfortable than Alu. So compare two frames like a Giant Defy, one alu, one CF and the CF is more comfortable to ride. Having both I know this for a fact.
Surely you mean you know this for a 'subjective n=1 anecdote' - not an actual fact?
No - I have both.
Yes, I get that you have both.
So I'm sure you can also understand that I am in a perfect position to compare the two materials when everything else is equal. I've ridden both within the last few days.0 -
Gimpl wrote:Imposter wrote:Gimpl wrote:Imposter wrote:Gimpl wrote:As someone else posted recently - everything else being equal CF is more comfortable than Alu. So compare two frames like a Giant Defy, one alu, one CF and the CF is more comfortable to ride. Having both I know this for a fact.
Surely you mean you know this for a 'subjective n=1 anecdote' - not an actual fact?
No - I have both.
Yes, I get that you have both.
So I'm sure you can also understand that I am in a perfect position to compare the two materials when everything else is equal. I've ridden both within the last few days.
Yes, I get that you have both, you have compared both, and that you think one material is better than the other. But unless you can explain the science behind it then it's still just your opinion, not an actual 'fact'.0 -
Imposter wrote:Gimpl wrote:Imposter wrote:Gimpl wrote:Imposter wrote:Gimpl wrote:As someone else posted recently - everything else being equal CF is more comfortable than Alu. So compare two frames like a Giant Defy, one alu, one CF and the CF is more comfortable to ride. Having both I know this for a fact.
Surely you mean you know this for a 'subjective n=1 anecdote' - not an actual fact?
No - I have both.
Yes, I get that you have both.
So I'm sure you can also understand that I am in a perfect position to compare the two materials when everything else is equal. I've ridden both within the last few days.
Yes, I get that you have both, you have compared both, and that you think one material is better than the other. But unless you can explain the science behind it then it's still just your opinion, not an actual 'fact'.
Not really sure why you're getting your knickers in such a twist about it. I or anyone else don't need a science degree to be able to feel the difference, it's really quite obvious. I own both bikes and like them both, I'm not on any particular agenda here. You're also welcome to come round and try them out.0 -
Gimpl wrote:Not really sure why you're getting your knickers in such a twist about it. I or anyone else don't need a science degree to be able to feel the difference, it's really quite obvious. I own both bikes and like them both, I'm not on any particular agenda here. You're also welcome to come round and try them out.
First things first - I'm not 'getting my knickers in a twist' - I'm simply stating that what you believe to be a 'fact' is simply just an opinion.
I also have bikes made of both frame materials, and can detect no such difference. The only differences in ride I usually detect are the result in differences in tyre pressure, tyre volume, bar tape, etc. There is also no obvious science which supports your claim that one material is better than the other at absorbing road buzz, or any other kind of vibrations.
It's great that you think there is a difference, but it's just your opinion. My opinion is different.0 -
Look mate, Aluminium alloy is the best thing since sliced bread....got it? Just because you have 1st hand experience of two exact frames one CF and the other alu alloy and one rides well smoother than the other it doesn't mean a thing unless you can somehow prove it scientifically. Just because you own both frames and have no horse in the race it doesn't prove you aren't biased towards CF. It's not as if they put CF forks on alu framed bikes is it just for a smoother ride and less chatter on the front end is it?Gimpl wrote:Imposter wrote:Gimpl wrote:Imposter wrote:Gimpl wrote:Imposter wrote:Gimpl wrote:As someone else posted recently - everything else being equal CF is more comfortable than Alu. So compare two frames like a Giant Defy, one alu, one CF and the CF is more comfortable to ride. Having both I know this for a fact.
Surely you mean you know this for a 'subjective n=1 anecdote' - not an actual fact?
No - I have both.
Yes, I get that you have both.
So I'm sure you can also understand that I am in a perfect position to compare the two materials when everything else is equal. I've ridden both within the last few days.
Yes, I get that you have both, you have compared both, and that you think one material is better than the other. But unless you can explain the science behind it then it's still just your opinion, not an actual 'fact'.
Not really sure why you're getting your knickers in such a twist about it. I or anyone else don't need a science degree to be able to feel the difference, it's really quite obvious. I own both bikes and like them both, I'm not on any particular agenda here. You're also welcome to come round and try them out. Even though you might like Alu alloy for some applications like riding on very smooth tarmac roads or full sus MTBs, you just hate out of hand, so small minded! :roll:
Someone said 'Choice-supportive bias' but that can't be the case here can it?
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ZMC888 wrote:Look mate, Aluminium alloy is the best thing since sliced bread....got it? Just because you have 1st hand experience of two exact frames one CF and the other alu alloy and one rides well smoother than the other it doesn't mean a thing unless you can somehow prove it scientifically. Just because you own both frames and have no horse in the race it doesn't prove you aren't biased towards CF. It's not as if they put CF forks on alu framed bikes is it just for a smoother ride and less chatter on the front end is it? Even though you might like Alu alloy for some applications like riding on very smooth tarmac roads or full sus MTBs, you just hate out of hand, so small minded! :roll:
Someone said 'Choice-supportive bias' but that can't be the case here can it?
No idea what any of that was about....0 -
Imposter wrote:Gimpl wrote:Not really sure why you're getting your knickers in such a twist about it. I or anyone else don't need a science degree to be able to feel the difference, it's really quite obvious. I own both bikes and like them both, I'm not on any particular agenda here. You're also welcome to come round and try them out.
First things first - I'm not 'getting my knickers in a twist' - I'm simply stating that what you believe to be a 'fact' is simply just an opinion.
I also have bikes made of both frame materials, and can detect no such difference. The only differences in ride I usually detect are the result in differences in tyre pressure, tyre volume, bar tape, etc. There is also no obvious science which supports your claim that one material is better than the other at absorbing road buzz, or any other kind of vibrations.
It's great that you think there is a difference, but it's just your opinion. My opinion is different.
So by your own admission everything else isn't equal, ' The only differences in ride I usually detect are the result in differences in tyre pressure, tyre volume, bar tape, etc.' . Also, are they both frames of the same range from the same manufacturer? I completely get that frame materials can be engineered differently so that the lines blur but not in my case. As I previously mentioned I swapped everything - that's everything, over from one frame to another, the only difference was the frame material. Logic and deduction can also establish a fact as it does in this case - when the only difference between the two bikes is frame material and one is harsher than the other ergo it's the frame material. Use some common sense.
Anyway, I've had a chance to skim through some of your other posts and you seem to be a bit of a keyboard warrior and like engaging in arguments so I'm out.0 -
Gimpl wrote:Anyway, I've had a chance to skim through some of your other posts and you seem to be a bit of a keyboard warrior and like engaging in arguments so I'm out.
When your argument fails, start with the ad hominems. Get your retaliation in early eh?
Your own posts show a certain disposition towards confirmation bias, and this seems to be another example. You said something was a 'fact' when it was clearly just your opinion, that's all. Most of my 'keyboard warrior' type posts (again, that's just your opinion) are simply attempts to dismantle the kind of arrogance you are demonstrating at the moment, mostly achieved by presenting a reasonable counter to absurd claims like this. With the time you are saving in replying to this thread, you can go and look up the difference between 'opinion' and 'fact' for future reference.0 -
Gimpl wrote:The weight thing is distracting from what is important to a newbie (we are in the beginners section after all).
As someone else posted recently - everything else being equal CF is more comfortable than Alu. So compare two frames like a Giant Defy, one alu, one CF and the CF is more comfortable to ride. Having both I know this for a fact.
So to the OP - what are you more likely to ride ? How long do you want to ride for etc etc? A kilo difference here or there will make naff all difference.
Except that everything else isn’t actually equal, is it? Unless you have ridden exactly the same frame made from different materials, some of the differences you have experienced are down to differences in design. If you weren’t able to tell what you were riding, a skilled frame builder could probably fool you - and most other riders - into believing that a frame was made of a different material, simply by varying the handling characteristics and geometry, and telling you what it was made of.0 -
Simon Masterson wrote:Gimpl wrote:The weight thing is distracting from what is important to a newbie (we are in the beginners section after all).
As someone else posted recently - everything else being equal CF is more comfortable than Alu. So compare two frames like a Giant Defy, one alu, one CF and the CF is more comfortable to ride. Having both I know this for a fact.
So to the OP - what are you more likely to ride ? How long do you want to ride for etc etc? A kilo difference here or there will make naff all difference.
Except that everything else isn’t actually equal, is it? Unless you have ridden exactly the same frame made from different materials, some of the differences you have experienced are down to differences in design. If you weren’t able to tell what you were riding, a skilled frame builder could probably fool you - and most other riders - into believing that a frame was made of a different material, simply by varying the handling characteristics and geometry, and telling you what it was made of.
^^^^
This.
I'm struggling with some of the replies here. I don't remember anyone saying "buy aluminium over carbon cos it's better". Nobody is saying aluminium alloy is the best thing since sliced bread or the only frame material worth considering. We are simply saying that the idea that aluminium bikes will automatically give a harsh ride is demonstrably false. Comparing 2 Giants that are ostensibly the same apart from the frame material is hardly scientific because we don't know what they had in mind when they were designing them. If they wanted to make 2 bikes look the same but punt one out a bit cheaper cos it was made out of ali then it's no surprise if it rides like a bit of a nail. As Simon rightly says above, if it was possible to do a blind test then a skilled frame builder could fool you into thinking you were riding X, Y or Z depending on how he put it together. Throw wheel and tyre choice into the mix and the lines blue even more. There are smooth ali bikes and buzzy carbon ones, there are heavy ali bikes and light steel ones and there are super stiff titanium bikes when everyone knows it's supposed to be whippy right?
But please, to the OP just ride a few bikes and buy one you like best within your budget.0 -
I had a steel 853 bike with carbon fork. I swapped everything over to a carbon TCR. Groupset and wheels. The difference in ride was amazing. Really smoothed out road chatter.
Some carbon bikes will be as harsh as hell as that's part of their design but my TCR was a much smoother ride than steel.0 -
I've got a Specialized with vibration reducing zertz inserts bits and a carbon fibre fork. An alu alloy frame designed to be as smooth as possible. I've also got a low end Fuji carbon bike which is a carbon fibre all round/climber, not designed for comfort but for racing.
Yet the carbon fibre bike is far smoother. That's obvious because we put up with the negatives of carbon fibre, such as being weaker in some directions and the expense for that obvious advantage. Why would an aluminium alloy bike come with a carbon fibre fork and not an alumiunium alloy fork, that obviously because carbon fibre is a smoother and more compliant material.
I can't understand all these pro aluminium alloy loving whiners. One bloke with multiple accounts or a gang of morons? Misleading new riders and trying to defend alumium alloy to buy it when they could have afforded carbon fibre, madness.0 -
ZMC888 wrote:.
I can't understand all these pro aluminium alloy loving whiners. One bloke with multiple accounts or a gang of morons? Misleading new riders and trying to defend alumium alloy to buy it when they could have afforded carbon fibre, madness.
Oh dear. So if we disagree with you we're either one person with multiple ID's or a gang of morons? Classy. Anyway my dad is definitely harder than your dad.0 -
ZMC888 wrote:Why would an aluminium alloy bike come with a carbon fibre fork and not an alumiunium alloy fork, that obviously because carbon fibre is a smoother and more compliant material.
Many bikes were routinely being spec'd with alu forks around 15-20 years ago. Before that, we were all on steel forks. Carbon blades were originally introduced as a lighter-weight option as the carbon fork would generally save 200-300g over the equivalent alu version. Ride quality was not - nor has it ever been - a consideration as far as I'm aware. My own n=1 experience in changing from a steel fork to a carbon one (on a steel bike, back in 2001) was that it saved a bunch of weight, but made no difference to the ride.0 -
I've got carbon fibre forks, alu alloy forks, a steel fork or two, 100mm travel, 120mm travel, and 150mm travel MTBs, to me they all ride totally differently, just as the bikes do. I cannot understand for the life of me what the heck you are on about.Imposter wrote:ZMC888 wrote:Why would an aluminium alloy bike come with a carbon fibre fork and not an alumiunium alloy fork, that obviously because carbon fibre is a smoother and more compliant material.
Many bikes were routinely being spec'd with alu forks around 15-20 years ago. Before that, we were all on steel forks. Carbon blades were originally introduced as a lighter-weight option as the carbon fork would generally save 200-300g over the equivalent alu version. Ride quality was not - nor has it ever been - a consideration as far as I'm aware. My own n=1 experience in changing from a steel fork to a carbon one (on a steel bike, back in 2001) was that it saved a bunch of weight, but made no difference to the ride.0 -
ZMC888 wrote:
I've got carbon fibre forks, alu alloy forks, a steel fork or two, 100mm travel, 120mm travel, and 150mm travel MTBs, to me they all ride totally differently, just as the bikes do. I cannot understand for the life of me what the heck you are on about.Imposter wrote:ZMC888 wrote:Why would an aluminium alloy bike come with a carbon fibre fork and not an alumiunium alloy fork, that obviously because carbon fibre is a smoother and more compliant material.
Many bikes were routinely being spec'd with alu forks around 15-20 years ago. Before that, we were all on steel forks. Carbon blades were originally introduced as a lighter-weight option as the carbon fork would generally save 200-300g over the equivalent alu version. Ride quality was not - nor has it ever been - a consideration as far as I'm aware. My own n=1 experience in changing from a steel fork to a carbon one (on a steel bike, back in 2001) was that it saved a bunch of weight, but made no difference to the ride.
Not sure how suspension forks are relevant to this discussion. Anyway, your point that a carbon fork is better because it is a 'smoother and more compliant material' is not supported by anything other than your own opinion. As I said, that is not the reason they started making forks out of carbon.0 -
Imposter wrote:ZMC888 wrote:
I've got carbon fibre forks, alu alloy forks, a steel fork or two, 100mm travel, 120mm travel, and 150mm travel MTBs, to me they all ride totally differently, just as the bikes do. I cannot understand for the life of me what the heck you are on about.Imposter wrote:ZMC888 wrote:Why would an aluminium alloy bike come with a carbon fibre fork and not an alumiunium alloy fork, that obviously because carbon fibre is a smoother and more compliant material.
Many bikes were routinely being spec'd with alu forks around 15-20 years ago. Before that, we were all on steel forks. Carbon blades were originally introduced as a lighter-weight option as the carbon fork would generally save 200-300g over the equivalent alu version. Ride quality was not - nor has it ever been - a consideration as far as I'm aware. My own n=1 experience in changing from a steel fork to a carbon one (on a steel bike, back in 2001) was that it saved a bunch of weight, but made no difference to the ride.
Not sure how suspension forks are relevant to this discussion. Anyway, your point that a carbon fork is better because it is a 'smoother and more compliant material' is not supported by anything other than your own opinion. As I said, that is not the reason they started making forks out of carbon.
My opinion it's a 'smoother and more compliant material'? Your opinion is the minority view for sure.
Yes the weight. The weight also makes forks ride differently, as does the trail, rake, head angle and material. Self evident to almost everyone.
Sure, it's subtle like wine. Everyone knows the difference between an awful wine and a good one, but 'technically scientifically speaking' there is no or minimal difference.0 -
ZMC888 wrote:My opinion it's a 'smoother and more compliant material'? Your opinion is the minority view for sure.
Yes the weight. The weight also makes forks ride differently, as does the trail, rake, head angle and material. Self evident to almost everyone.
Sure, it's subtle like wine. Everyone knows the difference between an awful wine and a good one, but 'technically scientifically speaking' there is no or minimal difference.
Being in a minority (in your opinion) does not make me wrong, or you right. Also, can you clarify what you mean by a 'smoother' material. Smoother in what sense?
300g (+/-) weight saving is unlikely to make the fork ride differently. Not sure why you think that. Does your bike ride differently when you're not carrying a full 500ml bottle?
Comparing ride quality to wine is absurd, not to mention wholly subjective - which kind makes my point, ironically.0 -
the material per se Alloy or CF, makes little difference, its the quality and design that makes the difference but is as imposter says... subjective.
My old Tarmac was wooden and rode horribly compared to my next bike a look 585.....imo !!! but was that to justify the price tag???
i believe forks were primarily made out of CF because its cheaper to produce a durable CF one, than an alloy one with limited fatigue resistance.0 -
I'm not sure why carbon forks have become ubiquitous but I expect it's little to do with ride quality and everything to do with price and customer expectations. In the early days of ali bikes they picked up their reputation for harshness because frame builders seeking super light and rigid bikes used ever bigger tube diameters to achieve what they then thought was the Holy Grail. Carbon was seen as the next best thing when it came along and manufacturers seeking to maximise profits could then stick a carbon fork or rear triangle into a cheapo Ali frame and make a quick buck with the supposed upgrade of the new wonder material. Like square taper bottom brackets, high spoke count wheels and quill stems before them, aluminium and steel forks became old fashioned and outdated overnight even though they worked really well and in some cases better than what replaced them.
Back to the point of the thread. It is possible to make a really good bike out of aluminium alloy, steel, titanium, carbon fibre or even bamboo. Manufacturers love carbon because it's cheap and can be easily formed into many shapes and give the strength and properties required in different areas of the bike. That doesn't render all other materials outdated or redundant though and neither does it necessarily make carbon "better", however you define that. It's clear ZMC has a fixed view based on his own experiences which is fine but it doesn't make other people with different observations wrong. I'm sure the OP just needs to test ride a few bikes for himself and make his own mind up. That way he may then also discover why Shimano sucks and Campagnolo make the best groupsets.....................
(Please don't anyone bite my head off, that last bit was intended as humour)0 -
I shouldn't bite but... at ambient temperature, CFRP has a higher siffness to weight ratio than any known metallic alloy. Period. That's why almost everything on high performance vehicles, where cost is not really an obstacle, is CFRP. Specialist uses mean alloys aren't redundant, though.0
