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CTT cycling time trials, rules.

LookyhereLookyhere Posts: 987
edited October 2017 in Amateur race
Anyone fallen foul of the rule that states you cant enter 2 events on the same day, if its not reasonable to start and finish both? failure to do so means automatic DQ if you race in either.

We entered a HC that looked like it may well be cancelled as they had so few entries, another HC looked like the better bet for training as she wanted to do the National HC, so i entered that, rather than cancel the first event, i thought "they need the money more than me" so didnt! big mistake!

Now CTT have said not only would we be DQ'es if we ride in either, "further action may be taken" if we do (the organiser of the Chard event said we could ride but would be DQed) cant even do that now.

What fcuks me off is that my daughter is too young to have a credit card, drive or any money, so its my unwitting mistake but its a kid who is punished and she is very upset she cant ride, feel free to stop me riding but then take it out on a kid?

She was going to do the National HC but i will cancel, she doesnt want to do it, why support CTT if they behave like this? there are other sports than cycling that don't behave like this, of course cycling has sooooo many female riders :shock:

Their website should nt allow multiple entries or at the very least issue a warning of the consequences, i contacted CTT nationally, they were not interested in assisting.

What is it with these power crazed officials?
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  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,001
    I can understand the practical reasons why you would be upset, but the rules are pretty clear and you seem to have gone ahead and booked two clashing events regardless. Assuming you were aware of what might happen, you can't really complain unfortunately.

    The website allows multiple entries, because multiple entries are permissable with the existing caveats (ie if you can start/finish both) and awareness of the consequences means being aware of the organisation's rules, which it sounds like you are.

    Not having a go, sorry. But you can't ignore the rules and then complain when they get enforced. You can argue they are too harsh, but that's another discussion.
  • If you were expecting the first event to be cancelled then can't you just cancel that one and it will all be fine?
    If it's too close to the time you probably won't be able to get your money back so they'll get the money anyway as intended.

    The rule's probably there to stop people booking multiple events then deciding on the day which one to do, leaving some events with hardly any riders and the people who turn up aren't really getting anybody to race against, and it would have been better all round to cancel the event.

    On the muddy side of cycling, a really good, local charity race I used to take part in every year got cancelled because the date of another race was changed at short notice and all the big hitters had to send apologies for the smaller event. I think there were other factors involved but it was the straw that broke the camels back.
  • cougiecougie Posts: 22,512
    It's your fault. You don't know the rules. Calling volunteers w&bikers just makes you sound pretty nasty.
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,086
    I didnt know this rule but apparently its a new ish one.

    i ve entered multiple events on the same bacuse i didnt know where i d be for work, once i knew i just sent an apology to the organiser

    Cougie... its a bit harsh to call him nasty, who reads the rules???? i just look at the SC for the event, i d say CTT who are not volunteers, are being nasty, as the punishment is being dished out on his daughter.


    the start sheet hasnt been published on the CTT web site yet (if its the jenny cliff race) so it would be easy for them to cancel her entry and let her ride in at least one event, they should be encouraging females.
  • LookyhereLookyhere Posts: 987
    Imposter wrote:
    I can understand the practical reasons why you would be upset, but the rules are pretty clear and you seem to have gone ahead and booked two clashing events regardless. Assuming you were aware of what might happen, you can't really complain unfortunately.

    The website allows multiple entries, because multiple entries are permissable with the existing caveats (ie if you can start/finish both) and awareness of the consequences means being aware of the organisation's rules, which it sounds like you are.

    Not having a go, sorry. But you can't ignore the rules and then complain when they get enforced. You can argue they are too harsh, but that's another discussion.

    No, i did not realise, i ve never heard of this rule before, all i ve ever done in the past is check if there are any SC's stated in the event and to sign out, had i known i d have cancelled the first event or not even entered it, of course i am aware now.

    I am not really bothered about my entry, i am too old for HC's and TT's but it was a fun thing to do with my daughter.
  • marykamaryka Posts: 745
    It's not a new rule and it's not just a CTT rule either, it applies to BC events and also to both organisations' events together (as in, you can't enter both a TT and a BC road race when you can't feasibly do both).

    It's there to prevent chancers from entering everything under the sun (only £7-10 for most CTT events) and then picking and choosing where to go based on competition, weather, etc. As CTT events have a closing date, it's not fair to do that and deny other people an entry.

    I would like CTT to be a bit more forthcoming with closing times (e.g., very fast courses that close on a fast time that you may or may not meet and therefore not get an entry) as the current system has all the closing dates for the following weekend at the same time so if you miss one entry you can't enter another as it's already closed.

    Yes, your fault for not knowing the rules, even if you broke the rule unwittingly. Lesson learned. CTT will not feel badly that you aren't "supporting it" though, you're just another rider looking for a special exception and I'm sure they have had years of dealing with that. Calling them names on an internet forum is pretty low.

    As for those saying "who reads the rules" "it's not my fault for not reading the rules" etc. either inform yourselves better or get out of competitive sport. Ignorance is never an excuse. Rulebooks, internet, etc. are not hard to find...
  • LookyhereLookyhere Posts: 987
    maryka wrote:

    Yes, your fault for not knowing the rules, even if you broke the rule unwittingly. Lesson learned. CTT will not feel badly that you aren't "supporting it" though, you're just another rider looking for a special exception and I'm sure they have had years of dealing with that. Calling them names on an internet forum is pretty low.

    As for those saying "who reads the rules" "it's not my fault for not reading the rules" etc. either inform yourselves better or get out of competitive sport. Ignorance is never an excuse. Rulebooks, internet, etc. are not hard to find...

    I dont expect any special exception from CTT and i m sure they wont fold next year, i accept i should know the rules but you know what, life gets in the way.

    I just think that considering she did not make the entry they could have allowed her to ride, especially as the Website doesnt warn

    As you ve made this personal, TBH i m quite shocked at your comments but it also explains why so few women race, there about 10 females at chard, 1 junvenile and no juniors wow!
    its also not what you said to us both at the BnB in Jackson bridge either (where we stayed at the same place) you were encouraging toward my daughter - she was awestruck then, she isnt now after reading what you wrote, you your self were disparaging toward CTT and their lack of support for female riders, ironically i defended CTT as i thought they were better than BC.
  • fenixfenix Posts: 5,437
    Blimey - I've missed the bit where Maryka made it personal.

    I see where you've attacked her and blamed her for so few women racing. Christ knows how or why you're blaming her though or turned your daughter against her.

    The rules are not new - they've been around as long as I remember. It's your responsibility to know them.

    You could have been a grown up and admitted this, but now you've called people names. It's not making you look good.
  • marykamaryka Posts: 745
    Lookyhere wrote:
    As you ve made this personal, TBH i m quite shocked at your comments but it also explains why so few women race, there about 10 females at chard, 1 junvenile and no juniors wow!
    its also not what you said to us both at the BnB in Jackson bridge either (where we stayed at the same place) you were encouraging toward my daughter - she was awestruck then, she isnt now after reading what you wrote, you your self were disparaging toward CTT and their lack of support for female riders, ironically i defended CTT as i thought they were better than BC.
    It wasn't meant to be personal at all, I'm sorry that it came off that way.

    I have raced nearly 10 years in this country and if I had a pound for every rider who broke the rules and then wanted someone else to make an exception for them, I'd be rich. If you've been racing that long (Nationals at Jackson Bridge was 2015 so that's at least 3 seasons) surely you know the CTT rules by now?

    This has nothing to do with support for female riders or CTT having a go at your teenage daughter, etc. It's only you that's making this into that. It's about knowing the rules when you enter an event, and having the grace to accept when you've not followed the rules, rather than blaming everyone else for not giving you special remit to break them.
  • LookyhereLookyhere Posts: 987
    maryka wrote:
    Lookyhere wrote:
    As you ve made this personal, TBH i m quite shocked at your comments but it also explains why so few women race, there about 10 females at chard, 1 junvenile and no juniors wow!
    its also not what you said to us both at the BnB in Jackson bridge either (where we stayed at the same place) you were encouraging toward my daughter - she was awestruck then, she isnt now after reading what you wrote, you your self were disparaging toward CTT and their lack of support for female riders, ironically i defended CTT as i thought they were better than BC.
    It wasn't meant to be personal at all, I'm sorry that it came off that way.

    I have raced nearly 10 years in this country and if I had a pound for every rider who broke the rules and then wanted someone else to make an exception for them, I'd be rich. If you've been racing that long (Nationals at Jackson Bridge was 2015 so that's at least 3 seasons) surely you know the CTT rules by now?

    This has nothing to do with support for female riders or CTT having a go at your teenage daughter, etc. It's only you that's making this into that. It's about knowing the rules when you enter an event, and having the grace to accept when you've not followed the rules, rather than blaming everyone else for not giving you special remit to break them.

    I am sorry too, i ve edited my post to remove the offending phrase about CTT, i was and still am angry about this.

    I also accepted i should have known the rules in my 2nd post.

    I ve raced since i was a teenager, i read the rules that seem applicable to me, so SC's for example, i dont read that elbow pads must be 3,5cm in front of a line drawn in a vertical plane through the centre of the steering tube! How many organisers get out a ruler and spirit level and measure it?
    also Rule 11(e) which i ve fallen foul off, does not state any punishment, it just says "dont do it...." then some where else it says the organiser has 72 hours to raise the complaint to the district committee.... again no mention of punishment.

    Its not me making it personal to my daughter, its CTT, i phoned them up, explained i had messed up, accepted i couldnt ride but could an exception be made for my daughter? i was naive and thought it would just be an admin thing but no it could nt be changed, even though the start sheet hadnt been put on CTT, so an easy fix? or so i thought!

    So the organiser said she could ride but subject to a DQ, which was fine and i accepted that reluctantly, then CTT sent an email saying if she did ride then further action may be taken...... this was the final straw.

    Maryka, when your kids are old enough, you will realise the competing pressures that kids come under and why so many drop out of sport (if they even start!) BC dont do much to support parents and CTT do even less, its something i care about and feel kicked in the teeth by CTT, its not about me at all, i am way past my best before date.


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  • slowbikeslowbike Posts: 8,495
    I wasn't aware of the rule - but then I don't enter TTs or races other than club events which are always "on the day" so I've never bothered reading rules.

    I can see why they have the rule there - seems quite sensible to stop people chasing victories at the expense of others who just want to compete.
    You don't say how close to the event this is - I would've thought CTT organisers would - on this occaision - allow you to cancel your daughters entry to one of the events - even if you lost the entry fee - allowing her to compete in the other. But I suppose it depends how it's approached - by the tone of your initial post I guess you may have been a little agressive?
  • LookyhereLookyhere Posts: 987
    slowbike wrote:
    I wasn't aware of the rule - but then I don't enter TTs or races other than club events which are always "on the day" so I've never bothered reading rules.

    I can see why they have the rule there - seems quite sensible to stop people chasing victories at the expense of others who just want to compete.
    You don't say how close to the event this is - I would've thought CTT organisers would - on this occaision - allow you to cancel your daughters entry to one of the events - even if you lost the entry fee - allowing her to compete in the other. But I suppose it depends how it's approached - by the tone of your initial post I guess you may have been a little agressive?

    I am fcuking well now!!!!

    No as i said, i was polite, explained the situation etc and fully accepted loss of entry fee etc and expected her to be able to race, the lady went away and said she d try and sort but then i got this......
    "I've been advised by the district secretary that unfortunately you are in breach of regulation 11(e), as a result you should not ride either hill climb this coming weekend. If you do you will be disqualified and reported to the district secretary and further action may follow"

    I fwd it to CTT and have never got a reply.

    The only reason we wanted to do the Chard HC was its far longer and in duration, similar to the National HC which she d only just decided to enter, following a cold, i explained this to CTT as well.
  • marykamaryka Posts: 745
    LookyHere, fair enough, I already have been subject to the parental guilt that comes when you screw up and your kid suffers a result. I have such parenting fails nearly every day, some worse than others. I would be incredibly annoyed at me if I were my kid.

    I don't begrudge your frustration. I also do think CTT and BC could do more to make their (sometimes arcane) rules a bit better known amongst newcomers to the sport, or even people who have been around a while.

    Did you actually contact the organiser of the race you thought would be cancelled to find out the likelihood of that? TTs are rarely cancelled due to lack of riders as they are generally so cheap to put on.

    Shame not to see you at the Chard Wheelers event as it looks to be a good one. You don't really want to risk further disciplinary action though, it's not worth it. CTT will see it as purely administrative, not personal, but any suspension from racing gets her name on the list etc. that goes around to BC too and it's just not worth the hassle.

    Btw the online entry system at CTT alerts organisers to double event entries now, so that's how it was found out. Organisers I think have the obligation to report it when they see it.

    Have you entered the National then? Closed yesterday... (I haven't).
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,086
    let it be, you can never change these sort of organisations, they are set in their ways, had you been a member of MDCC, none of this would have happened, it wouldnt have been flagged up and if it had, would have been after the event, i ve been around BC in the region for a while and rules are rules unless they become guidelines lol!
  • fenixfenix Posts: 5,437
    Can you imagine the outcry if your daughter won her category in the event and someone else whose dad didnt argue her case had got DQ'd ?

    I know it sounds petty but its the only way to run these things. These people are volunteers. The races need to be as easy as possible to administer and fair to everyone. So the same rules for everyone.

    I doubt any further action would be taken but the rule is there to stop people blocking up spaces with no intention of racing.

    Perhaps volunteer yourself to go on the district council, or help organise your Club TT and you'll see what a nightmare it is when people want exemptions or just don't know the rules.
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,001
    mamba80 wrote:
    let it be, you can never change these sort of organisations, they are set in their ways, had you been a member of MDCC, none of this would have happened, it wouldnt have been flagged up and if it had, would have been after the event, i ve been around BC in the region for a while and rules are rules unless they become guidelines lol!

    The issue is with CTT - not BC.
  • slowbikeslowbike Posts: 8,495
    I guess further action means it could result in suspension (from the CTT) - thus being inelligable to race in CTT events.

    The problem is that you've inadvertantly broken a rule and the DS is sticking to them ... to my mind the DS should at least consider the outcome - perhaps they have - perhaps loads of parents do this and expect an exception. Have you tried contacting the DS directly to plead your case?
  • slowbikeslowbike Posts: 8,495
    maryka wrote:
    Btw the online entry system at CTT alerts organisers to double event entries now, so that's how it was found out. Organisers I think have the obligation to report it when they see it.
    Well - if that's the case and it doesn't flag up to the user at the time of entry then it's pretty poor show - it could've been resolved before entries closed.
  • marykamaryka Posts: 745
    Yes it should have a box that pops up that says "are you sure you want to enter this event having entered this other one on the same day, refer to Rule XX" just as a fallback.
  • LookyhereLookyhere Posts: 987
    slowbike wrote:
    I guess further action means it could result in suspension (from the CTT) - thus being inelligable to race in CTT events.

    The problem is that you've inadvertantly broken a rule and the DS is sticking to them ... to my mind the DS should at least consider the outcome - perhaps they have - perhaps loads of parents do this and expect an exception. Have you tried contacting the DS directly to plead your case?

    I explained to him the result of his actions, never replied, he is also on the local BC committee, which ironically wants more women to compete RR, what he has made sure of is my daughter wont race again, (the region has 10 regular women racing, so well done) he was the one that threatened further action.

    Fenix, Myself and my GF spent 2 years on this committee as lay members, she put on numerous races RR's and i assisted her, we both spent a lot of time hold a flag, so is it now ok to criticise CTT ?

    As i said up thread, there are plenty of other sports, my daughter likes running and kayaking, has already today, told the school her chosen sport for PE next years A level, will be XC running and not cycling, she also wrote to CTT nationally, pleading to be able to ride, again no reply, it is in this context i called them XXXXXXXs

    Maryka, Nationals, yes i d entered but i will withdraw her entry, we both feel very demoralised about this.
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,086
    Imposter wrote:
    mamba80 wrote:
    let it be, you can never change these sort of organisations, they are set in their ways, had you been a member of MDCC, none of this would have happened, it wouldnt have been flagged up and if it had, would have been after the event, i ve been around BC in the region for a while and rules are rules unless they become guidelines lol!

    The issue is with CTT - not BC.

    aware of that, the prob he has is that the same long in the tooth guy who sets the CCT scene in Devon/Cornwall is also hi up in local BC.

    as i said, my advice is leave it, these people have their own agenda and you wont chnage that, its why we dont have anything to do with either set up now.
  • Lookyhere wrote:
    Maryka, Nationals, yes i d entered but i will withdraw her entry, we both feel very demoralised about this.

    Sounds a bit of an overreaction. Only one person suffers there.
  • slowbikeslowbike Posts: 8,495
    Lookyhere wrote:
    slowbike wrote:
    Have you tried contacting the DS directly to plead your case?

    I explained to him the result of his actions, never replied, he is also on the local BC committee, which ironically wants more women to compete RR, what he has made sure of is my daughter wont race again, (the region has 10 regular women racing, so well done) he was the one that threatened further action.
    He threatened further action or he never replied - or did he threaten further action then not reply to further communications?
    Lookyhere wrote:
    Fenix, Myself and my GF spent 2 years on this committee as lay members, she put on numerous races RR's and i assisted her, we both spent a lot of time hold a flag, so is it now ok to criticise CTT ?
    And you didn't know the rules? I accept a f*ckup - but you knowing entered two events on behalf of your daughter.
    Lookyhere wrote:
    As i said up thread, there are plenty of other sports, my daughter likes running and kayaking, has already today, told the school her chosen sport for PE next years A level, will be XC running and not cycling, she also wrote to CTT nationally, pleading to be able to ride, again no reply, it is in this context i called them XXXXXXXs

    Maryka, Nationals, yes i d entered but i will withdraw her entry, we both feel very demoralised about this.
    Cut off your nose to spite your face ...

    It really depends what your daughter wants out of this - does she just like competition in her hobbies - in which case - take up any-other-sport-it-doesn't-matter - or did she want to see if she could make a career in cycling? If the latter then it would be best just to suck it up and blame her Dad ... (although at A-level age - perhaps she should take a little responsibility in knowing the rules too) and enter some other hill climbs that don't clash. At this stage, CTT have only said that if your daughter races either of these two hill climbs she would be DQ'd and potentially face further action - which having notified you would be a bit silly not to follow through. The CTT's only failing is not entering into extended correspondance with you over this matter which was all your own doing.
  • cougiecougie Posts: 22,512
    Toys out of the pram here.....
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,086
    Lookyhere wrote:
    Maryka, Nationals, yes i d entered but i will withdraw her entry, we both feel very demoralised about this.

    Sounds a bit of an overreaction. Only one person suffers there.

    i d do the same, in fact i would nt even have entered in the first place, its a round trip of at least 15 hours, you have to be 100% for these things, no point racing if its only 95%, refocus and come back stronger next year.

    unless you d do that for your kid, then i d shut up.

    Its bit harsh expecting a 16yo to be up to speed with CTT rules, esp if you dont race yourself Slowbike, you sound a right troll tbf
  • cougiecougie Posts: 22,512
    Dad entered so dad should know the rules.
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,086
    cougie wrote:
    Dad entered so dad should know the rules.

    think the OP has already accepted that, no wonder you ve got 20k plus of posts, obv plenty of time to read up......
  • cougiecougie Posts: 22,512
    So sorry. I'll be sure to ask you for permission to post. I didn't realise you owned the forum.
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,086
    cougie wrote:
    So sorry. I'll be sure to ask you for permission to post. I didn't realise you owned the forum.

    carry on posting [email protected]
  • mamba80 wrote:
    Lookyhere wrote:
    Maryka, Nationals, yes i d entered but i will withdraw her entry, we both feel very demoralised about this.

    Sounds a bit of an overreaction. Only one person suffers there.

    i d do the same, in fact i would nt even have entered in the first place, its a round trip of at least 15 hours, you have to be 100% for these things, no point racing if its only 95%, refocus and come back stronger next year.

    unless you d do that for your kid, then i d shut up.

    Lookyhere was clearly willing to do that for their kid.

    Deciding to not do something because you are angry with someone who doesn't care that you're angry only affects you.
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