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Troubles with tubeless.

SMESME Posts: 348
edited January 2018 in Workshop
I know there's a few threads on tubeless tyres, but I can't find anything that answers this...

I have inadvertently unscrewed the valve when I took my hand pump off, let out all the air, and now I can't seat the tyre.

The tyre wlll seat with the valve taken out - I've made myself one of those ghetto inflators and can pump the bottle up to 90psi (but not sure I'd trust it any further).

The trouble is when I go to take off the inflation equipment to re-insert the valve, the air escapes and the tyre becomes un-seated - no amount of pumping with the track pump then will re-inflate the tyre. I've tried soapy water but I'm just getting big bubbles from the rim! With the valve in when I try to inflate, the air blast just isn't quick enough.

Any guesses where I might be going wrong (more soap. less water)?
Any suggestions at all would be most welcome at this point.

Bontrager TLR wheels.
Schwalbe Pro One's
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Posts

  • singletonsingleton Posts: 1,662
    I had some similar issues.
    Could get the tyre to seat with the valve core removed, but not with it in.
    I think there are 2 potential ways forward:
    1. Try using a second wrap of rim tape - this worked for me.
    2. Buy some expensive Milkit valves. These have a rubber one way second 'valve' which stops the air rushing out when you remove the valve core.
  • svettysvetty Posts: 1,904
    Fill with sealant, inflate with valve out. Leave pump attached to prevent deflation, once sealant has 'set' (24 hrs?) then remove pump and refit valve?
    FFS! Harden up and grow a pair :D
  • robertpbrobertpb Posts: 1,866
    Buy a Presta to Schrader converter for about £2 then you can pop down the local garage and give it plenty of wellie.
    Now where's that "Get Out of Crash Free Card"
  • singletonsingleton Posts: 1,662
    svetty wrote:
    Fill with sealant, inflate with valve out. Leave pump attached to prevent deflation, once sealant has 'set' (24 hrs?) then remove pump and refit valve?

    For my rims that wouldn't work.
    I deflated them after several weeks/months and once down to a low enough pressure the tyres dropped off the rims.
  • I'd probably start again, 2 rounds of rim tape.
    Cover both tyre rims with this

    SchwalbeEasyFitL.jpg

    Then inflate. See how they hold up then deflate/ inflate and add sealant.
    Also make sure valves are decent quality and properly seated
    I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles
  • svettysvetty Posts: 1,904
    singleton wrote:
    svetty wrote:
    Fill with sealant, inflate with valve out. Leave pump attached to prevent deflation, once sealant has 'set' (24 hrs?) then remove pump and refit valve?

    For my rims that wouldn't work.
    I deflated them after several weeks/months and once down to a low enough pressure the tyres dropped off the rims.

    Same here. Rather than buy a CO2 inflator (which might or might not work), faff with more tape (which I didn't need when tyres were new) or buy commercial air-shot device (DIY version didn't get beads to seat), I reverted to good sensible clinchers.....
    FFS! Harden up and grow a pair :D
  • singletonsingleton Posts: 1,662
    svetty wrote:
    Same here. Rather than buy a CO2 inflator (which might or might not work), faff with more tape (which I didn't need when tyres were new) or buy commercial air-shot device (DIY version didn't get beads to seat), I reverted to good sensible clinchers.....

    I can understand why.
    I'm stubborn and after buying tubeless ready rims and tyres, I bought an airshot and persevered.
    So far they've been good, but I'm nervous of getting a flat while out and having to do a roadside repair.
  • SMESME Posts: 348
    Thanks for all the replies...
    singleton wrote:
    I had some similar issues.
    Could get the tyre to seat with the valve core removed, but not with it in.
    I think there are 2 potential ways forward:
    1. Try using a second wrap of rim tape - this worked for me.
    2. Buy some expensive Milkit valves. These have a rubber one way second 'valve' which stops the air rushing out when you remove the valve core.
    I've heard that a 2nd layer of tape can often work - something to bear in mind. I'll look into the valves too.
    svetty wrote:
    Fill with sealant, inflate with valve out. Leave pump attached to prevent deflation, once sealant has 'set' (24 hrs?) then remove pump and refit valve?
    The tyre had already been on for around 2 months with sealant in before it became un-seated - maybe a fresh start would have worked.
    robertpb wrote:
    Buy a Presta to Schrader converter for about £2 then you can pop down the local garage and give it plenty of wellie.
    Didn't work - my local garage hasn't got the old handheld gauge type inflator - it has one of these digital pumps that puts in some air then stops and tests the pressure... wasn't a big enough blast.

    But...
    For any that have similar problems, I did eventually solve this by using a thicker mix of washing up liquid and water, around 50/50 mix worked (made it more slippery and sticky, I guess).
    I've ordered an Airshot as well - the ghetto inflator works, but I don't trust it (although I did inflate it numerous times to 90psi !).

    But thanks all for the replies -still some interesting ideas to ponder.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Som tyre rm combo's and it is mostly the rim give problems. There is no good solution I have found but the situation can be manageable. I have found some rims where when the tyre is deflated the tyre unseats. Wrap as much tape around the rim as you can. The tyre needs to be a tight fit the only way around this is inflate with highly compressed air with sealant in place and leave for a bit. let all the air out after 24hrs and see if it unseats if it does censored you have one those not so tubeless compatible rims.

    Rims that are not tubeless compatible can still be used tubeless as with enough sealant in the tyre you are unlikely to loose all the air in the event of a puncture but the situation is not ideal. Just be prepared with a tube in that case. A proper tubeless setup wont unseat when the tyre is flat so a tube is not necessary. you simply plug the hole externally and reinflate.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • SMESME Posts: 348
    Som tyre rm combo's and it is mostly the rim give problems. There is no good solution I have found but the situation can be manageable. I have found some rims where when the tyre is deflated the tyre unseats. Wrap as much tape around the rim as you can. The tyre needs to be a tight fit the only way around this is inflate with highly compressed air with sealant in place and leave for a bit. let all the air out after 24hrs and see if it unseats if it does censored you have one those not so tubeless compatible rims.

    Rims that are not tubeless compatible can still be used tubeless as with enough sealant in the tyre you are unlikely to loose all the air in the event of a puncture but the situation is not ideal. Just be prepared with a tube in that case. A proper tubeless setup wont unseat when the tyre is flat so a tube is not necessary. you simply plug the hole externally and reinflate.

    Yes, I've hears that certain combinations can be more trouble - I've probably got one! Although the tyre did seat OK when I used a 50/50 mix of water/washing up liquid (as I have read somewhere else) so maybe it was just my in-experience. The Bontrager TLR is meant to be TubeLess Ready, but my cycle shop did change the rim tape! When I have to change the tyres I'll add some layers - you're not the first to mention such.
  • Are you sure the tyre seated properly all the way around? 90psi might not be enough.
  • 964cup964cup Posts: 1,359
    I feel your pain having replaced the front tyre on my commuter yesterday. Sometimes even an Airshot (I have one) won't cut it, especially road tyres on wide rims (e.g. Hutchinson Intensive on Pacenti SL23). One time in three I have to resort to using a Co2 cylinder - and you need to use an unregulated inflator head (push-on spring type, not the turn to release type) so that you get maximum initial gas flow. As long as the beads are correctly seated either side of the valve (a common error) this will always work. It feels wasteful, though, especially since you have to let all the gas out once the bead has seated properly and then pump the tyre up again with air (because Co2 will leak out too quickly, being a smaller molecule). There's something very satisfying in the violent bangs as the bead seats, though.
  • singletonsingleton Posts: 1,662
    Glad you're sorted.
  • I find with the Airshot that if I unscrew the end part on the hose nozzle that screws into the valve stem with the core removed, then what remains will screw onto the valve with the core in place and will still inflate rapidly enough to seat the tyre. So my inflation procedure is:

    1. Fit tyre and inflate and seat using Airshot with the valve core removed
    2. Deflate and add sealant through the valve core (I use an old 50mL Stans sealant bottle to do this)
    3. Fit valve core, remove fitting from end of Airshot nozzle, screw nozzle onto valve and inflate

    Occasionally I find a tyre that won't inflate with the Airshot when initially fitted. In this case I first inflate it using a tube and leave it inflated for a day or so, after which it conforms much better to the rim and can be inflated tubeless without problem.

    Some tyre/rim combinations will inflate ok using just a track pump.

    Airshot nozzle:
    airshot.jpg
  • SMESME Posts: 348
    OK. I know this is an old post, but I thought this may help some people.

    The 50/50 soap/water on the rims didn't always work. So, I devised a reed valve system using a Park Tool glueless patch folded in to a third, attached to the end of the valve and trimmed - the valve flaps shut with pressure behind it.

    15067747454391024955123.jpg

    This allows me to inflate the tyre quickly and seat the bead without the valve core in, but holds the air in while I remove the Airshot (and adaptor) and screw in the valve core.

    Just thought this might help anyone who has a similar problem where the tyre comes off the bead when the core's removed to inject sealant.
  • sme, that's really clever. did you use glue or rely on the Park adhesive on the patch? Does it goo up with sealant?

    Thanks
  • SMESME Posts: 348
    sme, that's really clever. did you use glue or rely on the Park adhesive on the patch? Does it goo up with sealant?

    Thanks

    Just r3lied on the patch's glue, but gave the bottom of the valve an abrasive rub as you would a tube.

    Don't know about it gooing up, although I have no trouble topping up the tyre pressure.

    Steve
  • g00seg00se Posts: 2,221
    How do you let the air out though?
  • SMESME Posts: 348
    g00se wrote:
    How do you let the air out though?

    It's not an absolute seal, I think some air must escape where the 'hinge' part of the flap is - if you hold down the valve top as normal air does still escape but at a far, far lesser speed.

    If you need to release air more quickly I should imagine taking the valve out and gently insert a cocktsil stick or similar would do it.
  • Hi, new tubeless owner as of yesterday. Problem straight away and would gratefully receive any advice to remedy.

    So, yesterday I received a set of Prime peleton alloy wheels and some Hutchinson sector 32mm to use on my winter bike.
    The wheels are wiggle/CRC's in house brand and arrived with tubeless tape fitted and valves.

    So, the tyres mounted very easily by hand, seated well and inflated immediately with a track pump. On both wheels however, once above 40psi, air escaped from the rim joint at the brake track. I removed both tyres to check the tape and there appears to be no difference in the tape at the rim joint compared to any other part of the rim. I remounted the tyres, inflated with a compressor but no different.

    I have not added any sealant, still waiting for it to arrive, but am guessing that the tyre should seal without sealant first before adding. What to do next?

    Thanks in advance for any advice.
  • graeme_s-2graeme_s-2 Posts: 3,382
    I've only recently set up my first pair of tubeless wheels/tyres, so take this with a pinch of salt. I couldn't get the tyres to seat or seal at all with a track pump or CO2 canisters (including stupidly freezing my index finger on the CO2 inflator). I dumped some Stans sealant in through the valve and they went straight up with the track pump and seated with a bang. They lost a little air overnight, but have been absolutely fine since (about 3 weeks).
  • SMESME Posts: 348
    Yep, that's what I've been told too... That sometimes the tyre can seep air past the rim/bead seal or even through the tyre material itself. So, once the tyre is inflated, slosh the sealant around a bit to get into the rim and coat the inside of the tyre, tread and walls.

    If your air leak at the rim is too big though, no amount of sloshing sealant around will seal it and the problem will have to be investigated, spurious rubber left from moulding, or something on the inner rim. Also, if it's a folding tyre, I've been told that taking them out of the package a few days before fitting helps them to get back their shape and may straighten out the bead some.
  • Thanks guys. I will wait for the sealant and see what happens. Hopefully this will cure the problem. If not I will try an extra wrap of tape. If it was just one tyre leaking i would suspect maybe the bead or tape incorrectly fitted. But as it is both wheels in the exact same location, at the rim joint, I think the joint is the issue. They are pretty budget wheels so the joint is not 100% perfect and that micro difference between the mating of the two ends could just be all the difference required. Waiting on the postie now.
  • graeme_s-2graeme_s-2 Posts: 3,382
    I had the same problem with both tyres/wheels. They seemed to be leaking through a mould line on the tyres, and also through the not properly seated interface between the rim and the tyre bead. Once I put the sealant in I got a bit of sealant leaking at the rim/bead, and a bit through the mould line, but I wiped it off and there’s been no leakage of sealant or air since.
  • davidofdavidof Posts: 2,382
    naylor343 wrote:
    Thanks guys. I will wait for the sealant and see what happens. Hopefully this will cure the problem. If not I will try an extra wrap of tape. If it was just one tyre leaking i would suspect maybe the bead or tape incorrectly fitted. But as it is both wheels in the exact same location, at the rim joint, I think the joint is the issue. They are pretty budget wheels so the joint is not 100% perfect and that micro difference between the mating of the two ends could just be all the difference required. Waiting on the postie now.

    It is an issue with the Prime Peloton wheels.
  • It is an issue with the Prime Peloton wheels.

    Hi davidof, have you had the same issues? Did the sealant fix it or is extra tape required first?
  • davidofdavidof Posts: 2,382
    naylor343 wrote:
    It is an issue with the Prime Peloton wheels.

    Hi davidof, have you had the same issues? Did the sealant fix it or is extra tape required first?

    sealant will fix it, eventually, I would suggest going without extra tape straight off. Also when you put sealant in, don't unset the tires as I found them hard to get reinflated.

    Go for a long ride after you've put sealant in, but not too far from home.
  • Thanks davidof, that's the best kind of first hand advice. I hoped, but new it was never gonna be easy.
  • lincolndavelincolndave Posts: 8,902
    Hi naylor, if you are still struggling have a look at this link, I hope it helps
    https://www.huntbikewheels.com/blogs/ne ... ting-guide
  • The RookieThe Rookie Posts: 27,748
    Once air is leaking into the rim it will come out 'somewhere', it may be leaking in some way from the rim joint. It sounds like a taping issue but the above advice will probably sort that.
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