Which Titanium frame?

andyh01

Hi all

So looking for a new custom build based around a standard off the peg titanium frame, question is, which, which frame to go for out of these (quoted price for frame only as would like Envey forks and chris king headset);

Jack 11 £1500
Enigma Escape £1650
Lynskey GR250 £1800
Kenisis Tripster £1665
Planet X Tempest £1200
Any others ? I've priced the Moots route 45 and Seven SLX out due to costs. There is about 30% price difference on a full built Moots route 45 compared to the Escape based on same components

flasher

Burls.

http://www.burls.co.uk/index.php

sloppyschleckonds

If you aren't that bothered by brands, you could get one of those russian/ chinese generic frame builders to knock you one up for around £500

bondurant

Burls probably the best value and use Russian builders. Enigma for all British.

If you really know what you are doing, follow Sloppy's advice.

Matthewfalle

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

If you aren't that bothered by brands, you could get one of those russian/ chinese generic frame builders to knock you one up for around £500

This plus an Ultegra group set for £450 odd

andyh01

I'm not sure what I'm looking at in terms of who is a "good brands" - No I don't want a cheap knock off, without much of a guarantee but nor do I want pay 10k on a full built seven green slx . The moots is out of the equation as this came in at approx £7700 when I could go for the Enigma at £6k and for my use/ability I probably wouldn't notice. I guess I want quality and value for money. I would also like longevity (eg Lynskey (yes I know they sold out and re-established) so in 10 yrs + time the "brand" is still going and not an unknown miscellaneous that no one has ever heard of) who have a proven track record.
I guess if I were going to go "cheap" I'd just go with the PX.

antonyfromoz

What about a Van Nicholas or one of the J.Guillem frames from Planet X (if they still have your size)? As I understand it, J.Guillem are made by the original founders of Van Nicolas bikes and both companies specialise in titanium frames.

banditvic

Picknflick Planet X.

JayBM

Couldn't be happier with my Dolan Ti ADX

andyh01

Other than the obvious things, such as;
Post or flat disc mount (prefer flat)
Internal or external cable routing (I prefer external, I think)
Threaded or push fit bb (I think threaded)
Tire clearance (I want to be able to fit stud snow tires on with a rack)
N0 of bosses (at least 2) and
Geometry (which I can't translate anyway eg difference in say 45 degree slack angle vs 50 - I just want an all rounder)
Is there one that stands out/ better than the others; Or are they much of a muchness and like comparing red wines eg Merlot to Shiraz?

I think I've narrowed it down to either the J.ack or the Escape as these are local-ish to me and I have at least "test ridden" them and "seen them in the flesh" ( As Ti they look similar, least I know difference in types of finishes, I went from preferring brush to preferring beaded). The main difference between the two seems to be cable routing, J.ack is internal (though they may do external if I asked them too) The Escape is external.

Enigma has been going longer than J.Laverack, not that I'm sure this means anything, or is the Escape a more proven frame?

Both the J.ack and Escape are designed in the UK but welded in the Far East - some of the Enigma is produced in the UK but not the Escape, I believe they are both double-passed/double buttered.

I just need to clarify the frame guarantee on them, whether lifetime or not.

As I need some independent advice, on the rest of the bits, the Escape is via a local-ish decent LBS who stock more componentry for me to see and feel before committing, then Laverack - It's just a lot to chuck at something without being able to "test ride" the exact speced bike before handing over the cash, I guess it's ok if you know what you're doing but I'm not sure.

As I want to go through an LBS for their advice, it does narrow down the choice a bit, particular as they only stock the Enigma brand but I also guess they'd order in whatever frame I want once I've committed and no doubt paid for the frame, so be stuck if didn't like it, was wrong size or prefer something else, nor would I get them to order several frames in and me pick the one. Having said that, I could also work with Laverack who'd specc their frame build around my requested componentry.

Thanks again
Andy

wongataa

If you would like a Ti frame made in the UK then there is https://www.reillycycleworks.com/.

hopkinb

AndyH01 wrote:

Is there one that stands out/ better than the others; Or are they much of a muchness and like comparing red wines eg Merlot to Shiraz?

Dunno about Ti frames, other than riding a pickenflick, which is a super do-it-all bike in my opinion, let down only by not having eyelets for mudguards, but that's my lookout, as I knew that when I bought it, and raceblade XLs keep most of the crap off.

However, your eyes, sense of smell and tastebuds are shot to fcuk if you think merlot and shiraz are much of a muchness...

alan_sherman

Sabbath September disc (All road)
Spa cycles elan. Cheap but has down tube mounts for gear levers rather than cable stops!
Genesis Croix De fer titanium. only 105 groupset but looks good
Kinesis Tripster (I prefer the older model) or Gran Fondo Ti
Charge Plug Ti
Reilly Gradient (designed by the same bloke who used to do Enigma and the Plant X Tempest). Road.cc had a review.


The other thing to consider is quick release verses through axle. I'd agree with external cable routing to prevent a stress riser around internal routing holes is.

If I had the spare money and was close to Planet X i think the tempest would be my choice (if the fit was good).
My requirements would be more of an audax / light tourer slant:
- No paint. Ti is beautiful. Brushed finish
- Threaded BB
- Tapered steerer for fork compatability
- External cabling with gear adjusters (ideally on sides of head tube)
- no braze on for front derailleur
- Brakes: Prefer flat mount (especially on fork) for looks and seems to be a standard that is sticking.
- Mudguard and rack mounts (on seatstay)
- fork to have mudguard mounts down by the axle (not half way up the leg) and a crown bolt for mudguard / dynamo light.
- Space for 35mm with guards
- not a crazy top tube slope. I'm not a fan of super compact geometry!
- 135mm rear axle spacing. Some are going wider which concerns me about heel clearance.
- Quick release
- 27.2 mm seat post for flex / comfort.

proto

Mate of my has a frame built by Marc Reilly at his previous enterprise, Nerve, and it's a very lovely thing indeed. If was after Ti frame Reilly would be high on my list.

coops1967

I'd second looking to have plenty of tire clearance - most disk brake bikes tend to anyway... but i'd say 32mm clearance or more ( I've got some 19mm internal rims and with Challenge Paris Roubaix tires spec at 27mm, they actually measure at 31 and a bit mm on the wheels...)

Since custom, stop and ask yourself whether you prefer the horizontal top tube look, and a matching 17deg stem... and get a bike fit so it'll fit you before you buy.

You might like to splash out on a Ti Eriksen seatpost too - 'tis a thing of beauty and easy adjustment (but round saddle rails only).

those beaded finishes look pretty, but so does the 'bog standard' brushed... and with the brushed all you need is a scotchbrite green pad to buff it if it's ever needed.

And you can ask to ditch all the decals - unless you like that kind of thing. Saves on acetone later.

kleinstroker

wongataa wrote:

If you would like a Ti frame made in the UK then there is https://www.reillycycleworks.com/.

Those are very nice indeed

adlopa

Enigma Ecroix frame - various sizes: £950.00?

https://shop.enigmabikes.com/collection ... 9492916373

andyh01

How hard wearing is the brush finish - can it chip like normal paint - I didn't there was any difference other than the look between the two? The brush finish just seems to be streaky and shows finger prints.

Like the LBS pointed out looks a bit bland without any decals - I do prefer minimalist

I'll look at the Reilly thanks - think I ruled them out at one point either no guard/rack mount or not enough tire clearance I might be wrong. I'll have another look... Have see where they're based too

The Enigma Ecroix I believe is the older version of the hew escape and therefore is post mount and again not as wide tires I think but will again double check it.

I'll also revisit the Sabbath too

Again though need to go via LBS for advice and build I'm not that good

rollemynot

coops1967 wrote:

I'd second looking to have plenty of tire clearance - most disk brake bikes tend to anyway... but i'd say 32mm clearance or more ( I've got some 19mm internal rims and with Challenge Paris Roubaix tires spec at 27mm, they actually measure at 31 and a bit mm on the wheels...)

sorry to hijack the thread, just started riding on these tyres... how low do you go on pressure?

coops1967

Well, I'm 85kg + 8 for the bike...

So far tried 80/85 psi - which is plenty high enough it seems, will try lower later ( when my ankle swollen from cellulitis recovers @sigh@ )

I think the brand name comes from the experience of mounting the tyres first time ;-)

Bordersroadie

Burls.

Designed in England by frame builder Justin Burls, made in Russia by a small specialist company that have been doing it for decades.

Great service, top quality job, outstanding value for money. Custom made frame for less than an off the peg one made in a big factory then marked up by the big brand.

coops1967

Bordersroadie wrote:

Burls.

Designed in England by frame builder Justin Burls, made in Russia by a small specialist company that have been doing it for decades.

Great service, top quality job, outstanding value for money. Custom made frame for less than an off the peg one made in a big factory then marked up by the big brand.

Good point.... had a look see on his website, a bit bare but....
http://www.burls.co.uk/shop/index.php?r ... uct_id=103

895 pounds for a frame (no fork) is a good indication of value - interesting to see the 'standard' tube shapes also

"Colnago profiled top tube, Aero down tube, curved stays, integrated head tube, Breezer drop-outs" here
http://burls.co.uk/tiRoad.php

And for custom would be ideal since he's worked with the 'Bike Whisperer' so get a good fit beforehand...

Bordersroadie

My Burls was specced with round tubes, straight seat stays and a biovalised down tube. Beautiful welding and still looks like new in its fourth year despite being chucked in the van umpteen times and had lots of big stones pinging off it from our farm track.

I'm convinced there is no difference in quality vs some very expensive brands. The Russian builders are the same company that made the Colnago Titanio in year 2000.

andyh01

Owing to job change where I be working out of town that"s 22 miles away, I'm not sure whether this will go ahead now but depends as I also have another job offer that is closer.

I'm convinced there is no difference in quality vs some very expensive brands. The Russian builders are the same company that made the Colnago Titanio in year 2000. - Just what I wanted to hear !Though I was always led to beleive spend as much on frame as possible as components can be upgraded over time. There's #700 ish difference in frame price to say the Escape - as a @cheaper@ frame is it still worth putting chris king headset in enve forks and finishing kit with some hand built wheels probably on chris king hubs oh and the new ultegra 8020 group-set (nech shifting with hydro brakes)

styxd

The problem with Ti is the price and there seems to be a good chance it'll break, although the likely-hood of that happening with one of the fancier builders like Moots/Eriksen/Potts is no doubt reduced. I reckon if you're only gonna spend under a grand, then you should be prepared to have to buy a new one if/when it breaks. If you buy something like a Moots, then they'll fix it for you if it does break.

andyh01

styxd wrote:

The problem with Ti is the price and there seems to be a good chance it'll break, although the likely-hood of that happening with one of the fancier builders like Moots/Eriksen/Potts is no doubt reduced. I reckon if you're only gonna spend under a grand, then you should be prepared to have to buy a new one if/when it breaks. If you buy something like a Moots, then they'll fix it for you if it does break.

Is this based on any data/facts or subjective view? what makes above #1k frame less likely to break? so if one was 995 and another was 1099, the one at 1099 will be better? Just curious, at what point does it stop being value and been changed for the name? Apparently the moots is in a different class to the Enigma and the Seven is in a different class again - wheres the middle of the road? Or is there really any difference in a cheaper custom built frame versus a big brand mass produced one? Having said that I did think even the PX was too cheap to be of quality ....

From what little I understand, the ones I've researched are the same aerospace grade 3Al-2.5V titanium. They all suggest they are double passed or double buttered.

I did say I'd look at the frame guarantee, as whilst some protection may exist under the sales of good act, some frames come either with an extended warranty or indeed lifetime

andyh01

Also sorry - what would you recommend as the most reliable frame material that is affordable and less likely to break ?

Bordersroadie

And so the Internet myth continues....

PhilipPirrip

Bordersroadie wrote:

And so the Internet myth continues....

Is this the myth put out by Thorn several years ago?

I had to do a search to find out where were all these horror stories of titanium frames breaking apart and the main recurring story that kept cropping up was the fake news put out by Thorn's builder who, surprise surprise, works with steel and had a hate of titanium.

andyh01

Just had a quick look and have ruled out sabberth, van nicholson, Dolan, Reilly & kinesis gran fondo ti due to tire clearence either 28c or 35c max (some without guard) so if want stud snow ties won't fit.

The Burles seems to be single welded and makes a case this is fine, they also make a point 4 yr warranty but if life time and go out of business it's worthless....

styxd

Bordersroadie wrote:

And so the Internet myth continues....

It looks like an epidemic to me........ https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=crack ... 66&bih=638

OP, here's some info on various materials http://www.strongframes.com/more/metatl ... rt-series/

The other problems have to do with fabrication. You’ve certainly heard that titanium is hard to weld and machine. A more accurate statement is that it is different to weld or machine. What you can’t do is cut corners with titanium. Meticulous procedure is essential. Without it, you risk contaminated welds, which can result in catastrophic failure of the weld.

Which is why it's worth paying for someone who knows what they're doing.