Best On line structured training

Mr Dog

Looking for the best option between Trainerroad, Zwift and the Sufferfest App. My aim is to increase my FTP over the winter months by as much as possible, or at least 10%. I have a dumb trainer, powermeter and an aging laptop.

Have many Sufferfest videos, bought whilst they were stand alone training films. Really enjoy the music. However I can't help but feel that the training element was an after thought bolt on.

Zwift - I love video games... but hate cheats... so I would mainly use the training plans rather than racing. Not sure that my 7 year old basic laptop would cope.

Trainnerroad - A lot of guys in the club use it. Seems the most simple option. Not sure looking at a line on a bar graph is enough for me.

Any thoughts and opinions would be great.

StillGoing

Tried both. Zwift is more an arcade game to me. I suppose it gives you something more to look at than the graphs of TrainerRoad, but TR programs are more structured to me. With Zwift, if you don't hit the indicated power satisfactorily during an interval, you fail that section, whereas with TR, it doesn't matter if you go over or under by a few watts. Also with Zwift, unless you're pretty disciplined, you can be tempted to just follow the flow of activity on screen instead of the program. You don't get detailed analysis with Zwift wheras with TR you do. You can upload TR to Training Peaks for greater detail, but not sure whether Zwift will.

You do need a pretty decent graphics card for Zwift if yo want full immersion and no stuttering picture.

Mr Dog

philthy3 wrote:

Tried both. Zwift is more an arcade game to me. I suppose it gives you something more to look at than the graphs of TrainerRoad, but TR programs are more structured to me. With Zwift, if you don't hit the indicated power satisfactorily during an interval, you fail that section, whereas with TR, it doesn't matter if you go over or under by a few watts. Also with Zwift, unless you're pretty disciplined, you can be tempted to just follow the flow of activity on screen instead of the program. You don't get detailed analysis with Zwift wheras with TR you do. You can upload TR to Training Peaks for greater detail, but not sure whether Zwift will.

You do need a pretty decent graphics card for Zwift if yo want full immersion and no stuttering picture.

Thanks Bud. Just what I needed to hear. My head is usually bowed as I suffer with the occasional glance at the screen.

Seems Trainerroad is the leading the pack.

Vslowpace

I would try a month of each and choose which one I liked best.

Personally I don't like Zwift, but loads do. I think TR just shades it from Sufferefest however, saying that I'm tempted to do a Sufferfest subscription this winter.

bobmcstuff

If you have the older Sufferfest vids bought standalone, most of them will integrate into TR. They have stopped doing this now as Sufferfest are pushing their own training platform.

I think TR has a bit better structure than Sufferfest, since the workouts are a more balanced between really high intensity and lower intensity, and there are lots and lots of workouts to choose from.

Having said that I do really like Nine Hammers for getting fit...

Not used Zwift. Might give it a go in the winter. I feel like it would be better on a smart trainer, and I've only got a cheap dumb trainer.

daniel_b

Trainerroad is awesome, really good training aid.

I use mine on minimum size, and watch cycling races or tv programs, which can help a lot.

The_Wicker_Man

Same as Daniel B for me

norfolkwhite

I've just followed TrainerRoad triathlon programmes for Base, Build and Speciality phases of their Long Distance triathlon programmes. Excellent results, sessions for each discipline are included within the plan (which may not be of interest) - kept me focussed but some of the long sessions you do need to be committed :shock:

daniel_b

Norfolkwhite wrote:

I've just followed TrainerRoad triathlon programmes for Base, Build and Speciality phases of their Long Distance triathlon programmes. Excellent results, sessions for each discipline are included within the plan (which may not be of interest) - kept me focussed but some of the long sessions you do need to be committed :shock:

Yep good call, forget which one I was on now, but some of the workouts were either 2.5 or 3 hours long.

Although, I think since then they have gone through the vast majority of the plans, and replaced the long rides with shorter more challenging rides.

bobmcstuff

/\ I also do split sessions - it's not often I'm going to do 90 minutes or 2 hours on the turbo so I might do a 30 minute workout in the morning with an hour workout in the evening or similar. I find this works better with my schedule anyway.

jgsi

In my Trainer Road days, I think I did 'Disaster' 3 times, for the hell of it.

bobmcstuff

JGSI wrote:

In my Trainer Road days, I think I did 'Disaster' 3 times, for the hell of it.

Masochist!

daniel_b

bobmcstuff wrote:

JGSI wrote:

In my Trainer Road days, I think I did 'Disaster' 3 times, for the hell of it.

Masochist!

Holy carp, 4 hours 10 :shock:

cgfw201

I did 3 years of on/off Sufferfest + TrainerRoad combo. Really good, and it does work.

However last winter I tried Zwift and not gone back. Makes the indoor riding process much more enjoyable, and there's now a massive bank of workouts on there too, both as part of structured plans or stand alone.

I also maintain that Zwift races are the hardest I've ever worked on a bike, miles more intense than outdoor crits.

johncp

Daniel B wrote:

Trainerroad is awesome, really good training aid.

I use mine on minimum size, and watch cycling races or tv programs, which can help a lot.

This. have watched three series of battlestar galactica and four of Walking Dead while slowly getting fitter. Can reduce TR to a narrow window across the bottom of the screen with Netflix/Amazon filling the rest of the screen

pippi_langsamer-2

No mention of Golden Cheetah?

bobmcstuff

Pippi Langsamer wrote:

No mention of Golden Cheetah?

I didn't realise you could do that on Golden Cheetah.

DCRainmaker seems to suggest it is pretty similar to TrainerRoad? https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2016/11/tra ... en-cheetah

I'm not sure from that description how well it does the structured plans like TrainerRoad. Probably worth it if you're on a budget and know what you're doing with training plans I guess (not hard with a bit of research).

slowmart

It seems a lot is subjective to the individual. I tried Zwift but it seemed arcade like whilst Sufferfest was really engaging and informative. I've just started the beginners 10 week training plan which seems a good mix of drills and routines and the videos are excellent. The target states really hurt and I like the additional yoga and mindset videos.

I'm interested in seeing the difference in my FTP over this period and looking forward to a winter of suffering.

barongreenback

Do any of these bits of software have training plans where you can put certain variables in such as how many days a week you have available to train? Whether you have a Power meter, indoor/outdoor sessions etc?

slowmart

barongreenback wrote:

Do any of these bits of software have training plans where you can put certain variables in such as how many days a week you have available to train? Whether you have a Power meter, indoor/outdoor sessions etc?

Plans are available which prescribe the training based on the amount of hours you have available on a weekly basis.

Most plans I've seen are focused on indoor training which they suggest is more effective given the controlled environment but there's nothing stopping you doing the drills on the road. The important thing is to do what works for you.

I'm a little confused as trainer road, zwift and sufferfest all seem to have a different flavour to get you where you need to be. I didn't give zwift much of a chance but it seemed too arcade like for me but I've got a good mate who loves it. Trainer road seems to be based purely around plans while sufferfest seems to do the same and then adds a element of entertainment with videos and excellent music together with additional mind and body coaching.

I''ve a colleague who said one of his club mates made good gains over last winter using sufferfest but essentially burnt himself out by Spring and lost all the gains he'd made. Collerellation? I'm not sure but I can see how it could happen.

I've just signed up with Trainer road and I'll try that for a week and see how I get on and decide between the two . I'm not knowledgeable enough to provide any insight on the merits or other on the training plans but trainer road seems to focus on sweet spot base work whilst sufferfest don't attach such labels but seem to offer a well rounded plans with additional focus for certain cyclists on fine tuning their fitness.

If you are looking into this type of training for the winter be sure to do your research as there seems to be issues with a variety of smart trainers. I was flipping between a Kickr and Flux and opted for the latter. I'm on my second. The support form Tacx is disjointed with little in the way of instructions and how to get the best out of your trainer. It's up to third parties on YouTube to share their knowledge which is shockingly bad from Tacx

Oh and it's a week since I put up a question about my unit failing without yet receiving a response and given the noise on the internet I bought from my LBS and received an exchange within 48 hours so it does pay to buy locally. Kickr 2 seems to be vampire like and doesn't like strong sunlight, supposedly it's a firmware rather than hardware issue. No doubt everyone wants a share of the market but it seems to me that products are being released which aren't fully tested.

Oh and not all platforms and trainers work on ERG mode using Bluetooth which means extra outlay for an ANT + unit. Mutterings about Bluetooth standards being adopted by manufacturers. Tacx and Sufferfest to name one.

But given all the arse about shoddy service and manufacturers attitudes to us, Joe Public I'm really enjoying the indoor cycling. It's effective and I'm looking forward to improving my fitness over the winter

bobmcstuff

/\ I can imagine burn out with sufferfest as most of the videos are quite high intensity, with threshold or VO2 intervals. Not really sustainable for a long time.

Trainerroad has periodisation built into the plans, so you'll do base, build and specialty phases where build has most of the really horrific stuff (IME anyway!). It doesn't focus on sweetspot base, that's just the first phase. I like trainerroad and am getting good results.
Sufferfest was good for getting into relatively decent form in a relatively short time but I think the approach of trainerroad where it's very structured over a long period makes it a bit more sustainable - flogging yourself with VO2 intervals day in day out gets unsustainable fast.

jgsi

I agree Zwift will take you (if you do use the racing aspect) deep into high zonal work.
It worked for me over last winter and gave me some great form early on in the season.
However and it is the big however, I was also doing an immense (for me a normal Joe) amount of actual road work by dint of a long commute. The thought of doing said sub maximal work indoors would fill me with dread.
So, if you approach it correctly, the Zwift and the equivalent are sustainable.
The many pros using Zwift have a reason.. they are usually on rehab/recovery.

Websta24

Zwift academy starts on September 1st. 6 week structured plan which looks pretty decent.

If your 18-21 you could win a pro contract!

daniel_b

I have been using TrainerRoad properly since January this year, and love it.

I've gone through the sweet spot base plans, the buid plan, and now onto a speciality plan.

I find them very involving, and really like the text that gets you to do various drills during the workout, ie it reminds you about your saddle position, relaxing your shoulders, knee alignment, pedal quadrants, cadence etc etc

Having said that, I usually run the workout in minimal mode at the bottom of the screen, and then either watch some cycling off of YouTube or Eurosport player, and the two combined are a great combination.
If I have no cycling to watch, I watch some drama series, or similar.

I was probably not in that good a place at the beginning of the year, FTP was coming out at around a lowly 140, but within 6 months, I had managed to hit 229, upping it incrementally along the way.
For me there is no greater motivation that seeing a definitive figure as to how much power you can deliver.

One issue I have had, which is not the fault of trainerroad, is that within a week of making that FTP of 229, I went on holiday for 3 weeks, and then caught a cold on the flight back, so in total had about 4.5 weeks off the bike.
I'm halfway through the speciality course now, but still struggling with the effort levels, so am not convinced I am going to see any, or much of a gain after the next test. But if I plateau for a bit, or lose a bit of ground, it's not the end of the world, I'll go back to the sweet spot base after this I think. and then see if I can be ready in the Spring to hit the TTs.

I did work through the Chris Carmichael Time Crunched cyclists book a few years back, and that was very similar interms of workouts and results, however, TrainerRoad just makes it super easy, and for someone with young children, imho it's a magic bullet.

I will one day try Zwift, but I have a funny feeling my aging Toshiba large screen laptop will likely not be up to the task.

slowmart

Dan , what volume did you opt for to see the 140-229 gain? low, md or high volume Was it a 10 week base with a six week build and specialism?

Did you alter your diet, intake and sleep duration?

daniel_b

Slowmart wrote:

Dan , what volume did you opt for to see the 140-229 gain? low, md or high volume Was it a 10 week base with a six week build and specialism?

Did you alter your diet, intake and sleep duration?

Hiya, since I started I have been using the medium intensity plans, circa 7 hours per week.
I did toy with the idea of high volume, and I think you could comfortably do that if you had no children!

IIRC the Sweet spot base was 2 lots of 6 weeks, so 3 months in total (Took me to the end of March\beginning of April), and then the build was an 8 week plan (Took me to early June), with an FTP half way through, and the speciality plan I am on now is another 8 week one, although this will finish slightly before an event I have on October 1st, so will likely repeat week 6 or 5, and then finish with 7 and 8, to hopefully be in the best shape possible.

Just FYI, the 140 is my estimation of the power I had at the time, just to give some context, I have cycled regularly for about 11 years, but I've only had one year (When I used the time crunched book) back in 2014 possibly, where I felt fairly fast, that was when I set all of my fastest times, segments, and average speeds crept up.
Aside from that block of concentrated training, I have only ever just cycled, and often would not be bothered to do so :oops:

When I carried out an FTP in January, I had not cycled really at all for 6 months, so was not in good shape, but I guess my base fitness was in there, just well hidden...... I was also 74.4kg, which is way heavier than I was designed to be.

So my first FTP of the year (I had done them previously so was familiar with the method of attack), that I crashed and burned on gave me an figure of 117, but because I capitulated on the second 8 minute effort, I know that was not a true representation, however as I was in shocking form, I decided to stick with that figure, and build up slowly.
As it happened, I was able to up the intensity of the workouts from about half way through the first 6 week plan.
On my second FTP some 6 weeks later, I managed to hit 180 which I was gobsmacked by, but that was what made me think my starting FTP was something around 140\150 - but clearly a guesstimate I agree.

I did see a huge change within those 6 weeks though, so do feel that is entirely possible.

The above was carried out on a Tacx Vortex - mid way through the next plan I had a Tacx Neo delivered, and on connecting this up it became clear the Vortex was over reading, by probably 10% (Further strengthening my first FTP guesstimate) - The Neos are reputed for their accuracy I gather.

I dropped the intensity, but by the end had it back up to 100%, and managed my next FTP at 197, then 215, and the last one, which I am now trying to justify, at 229.

As I said, I'm not convinced that I am going to see any improvements for the next one, due to time off, but last night was the first of the hard workouts that I managed to complete with no stoppages, and at 100% - Still struggled to keep the cadence up, and their suggestions to 'get aero' were met wth much mirth, as I was merely hanging on in there!

Apologies, this has turned into a ginormous essay :oops:

I did alter my diet, but mostly because I wanted to lose some weight, so when I say altered it, it was predominantly cutting out chocolate and pastries etc, and just trying to eat more healthily, so I now for example, 6 days a week have a smoothie for breakfast, comprising porridge oats, almond milk, blueberries, banana, apple etc etc - This keeps me full until lunchtime.

This seemed to work, combined with the exercise, as I am currently down at 65.8kg, so a loss of 8.6kg, or 17lbs in old money - my target is 63.5kg.

Sleep duration stayed the same, and possibly even a bit less in some instances, as I found if I did a workout that finished at 10pm, it was sometimes a struggle to get to sleep quickly - understandably I guess.

Oh and also after a hard workout I would have a few grams of whey protein - personal choice, some people rate it, others do not, I'm not extolling it's virtues, merely stating what I have done.

Finally to add, I am currently the fastest I have ever been (Assuming my power has not indeed dropped) and can see the prooof with my Strava segment times, and overall average speeds - stats don't lie!
It's also the most I have ever enjoyed cycling, and that is purely because when I do go out, I feel like I have power in my legs, especially at the end or latter part of rides.
I used to be familiar with running out out of power, and just having to spin home, but now it feels like I have some oomph in them there legs (Not a lot compared to come people I know) and as it's the best I have known, it feels bl00dy good!

My aim, possibly pie in the sky, is to reach 300 watts by this time next year - that will of course rely on no injuries I guess, or major time off the bike.

redjeepǃ

I've used Sufferfest for a few years and have also tried Zwift and the Bkool app. For now I'll be sticking with Sufferfest.

I feel that I probably work myself the hardest on the BKool app, but found it the most buggy and aggravating of all the different apps, however this may be down to my really, really carp broadband connection.

I never really liked Zwift that much, not sure why.

napoleond

I'm a Zwift convert.
I've never had as good a winter's training.
I made my own training sessions and exported from TrainingPeaks into Zwift. Then unstructured sessions were racing which is where the big gains came.
I was also easily able to do 3hr group rides for endurance which was unheard of with any other platform.
Resulted in a load of PBs in TT and a 2nd fastest bike split at a half IM this year.
You can export straight to TrainingPeaks from zwift

bvduck

bobmcstuff wrote:

/\ I can imagine burn out with sufferfest as most of the videos are quite high intensity, with threshold or VO2 intervals. Not really sustainable for a long time.

Hey Bob, David from The Sufferfest here. We started out with only very high intensity workouts, but now have a good collection of Base/Endurance/Sweet spot workouts in our library, with more to come. In particular, our videos with Mike Cotty and The Col Collective which are sweet spot sessions rarely, if ever, go above threshold and work a variety of cadences. Our structured training plans designed by APEX Coaching are well balanced and progressively build fitness -- they even feature a variety of outdoor workouts and specific drills like Cadence Builds and Standing Starts.

Richj

NapoleonD wrote:

I'm a Zwift convert.
I've never had as good a winter's training.
I made my own training sessions and exported from TrainingPeaks into Zwift. Then unstructured sessions were racing which is where the big gains came.
I was also easily able to do 3hr group rides for endurance which was unheard of with any other platform.
Resulted in a load of PBs in TT and a 2nd fastest bike split at a half IM this year.
You can export straight to TrainingPeaks from zwift

When you import workouts to Zwifts can they be done on rolling terrain, like outdoors or is the level of resistance set constant like in Trainerroad.

Am getting a smart trainer and really not sure if I go for Zwift (which I have never used but look gimmicky) or TrainerRoad which I have used but found following the blue line tough at times.

napoleond

If you do a strict structured workout it just keeps you at that power. I only did those for shorter, harder intervals at Vo2 max or MAP.
One of my favourite ways to do longer less intense intervals is by doing hill repeats.
For a really good hard workout though, the races are the game changer.