Di2 - Completely packed up - help

ugo.santalucia

meanredspider wrote:

All I can figure on the Brooks is that you have a soft butt

The opposite... it's very hard, hence needs a moulded saddle. Yours, on the other hand, is fat...

meanredspider

ugo.santalucia wrote:

IMO the main issue that I stress once again is that manufacturers focus on innovation that is utterly pointless and ignore innovation which could be game changing, being that in safety or in the ability to ride further or faster. Basically they are coming up with stuff that have no more use than a trousers press or an electric knife, when they could come up with an ABS system instead.

THE ONLY interesting stuff coming out in the bike world are E-bikes... personally I am not interested (yet), but I totally get what they are trying to do. I totally don't get where the road bike market is going TBH

The trouble is that the road cycling world is incredibly conservative. I'm sure they could make step changes but there's no point in launching something that the market won't accept. And that's people like you, Ugo.

I'm sure you could completely redesign the "cockpit" (I hate that word in this context) around electronic gears and hydraulic brakes. But almost no-one would buy it and people would complain that it's a "gimmick" or it doesn't look like the bike Indurain rode or some other nonsense. So they take tiny steps - like making electronic gear changes the same action as mechanical (what's that all about?). It frustrates the hell out of me and I'm just glad I don't work in the bike industry - it would do my nut it.

meanredspider

ugo.santalucia wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

All I can figure on the Brooks is that you have a soft butt

The opposite... it's very hard, hence needs a moulded saddle. Yours, on the other hand, is fat...

Mine is. I've hardly moved all year. I'll be looking out for all the Brooks saddles in the pro peleton or are they all fat too....?

ugo.santalucia

meanredspider wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

IMO the main issue that I stress once again is that manufacturers focus on innovation that is utterly pointless and ignore innovation which could be game changing, being that in safety or in the ability to ride further or faster. Basically they are coming up with stuff that have no more use than a trousers press or an electric knife, when they could come up with an ABS system instead.

THE ONLY interesting stuff coming out in the bike world are E-bikes... personally I am not interested (yet), but I totally get what they are trying to do. I totally don't get where the road bike market is going TBH

The trouble is that the road cycling world is incredibly conservative. I'm sure they could make step changes but there's no point in launching something that the market won't accept. And that's people like you, Ugo.

I'm sure you could completely redesign the "cockpit" (I hate that word in this context) around electronic gears and hydraulic brakes. But almost no-one would buy it and people would complain that it's a "gimmick" or it doesn't look like the bike Indurain rode or some other nonsense. So they take tiny steps - like making electronic gear changes the same action as mechanical (what's that all about?). It frustrates the hell out of me and I'm just glad I don't work in the bike industry - it would do my nut it.

It's up to SHimano to convince the UCI to accept different bike designs... they could threaten to pull out of the game altogether, I suppose Dura Ace & Co is a tiny and expensive to make proportion of their revenue... I would like to think their money come from Touray and Alfine and XT.
For as long as the UCI wants bikes that look like that of Jacques Anquetil, then there is no way out in terms of design. I for one would love to see races with very different bikes and would be very happy to buy a very different bike if it is an improvement on the existing ones

meanredspider

ugo.santalucia wrote:

It's up to SHimano to convince the UCI to accept different bike designs... they could threaten to pull out of the game altogether, I suppose Dura Ace & Co is a tiny and expensive to make proportion of their revenue... I would like to think their money come from Touray and Alfine and XT.
For as long as the UCI wants bikes that look like that of Jacques Anquetil, then there is no way out in terms of design. I for one would love to see races with very different bikes and would be very happy to buy a very different bike if it is an improvement on the existing ones

Shimano could but they probably don't mind whilst they have the dominant market position. I wouldn't be surprised if that had ideas stashed away but I don't suppose it's in their interests to rock the boat either - especially if the customer base won't buy it.

I expect DA is very profitable - the margins on the high-end stuff of any brand are usually much greater than the cheap stuff that's more cut-throat and competitive.

ugo.santalucia

meanredspider wrote:

I expect DA is very profitable - the margins on the high-end stuff of any brand are usually much greater than the cheap stuff that's more cut-throat and competitive.

There seems to be more competition at the top than there is at the bottom of the market. It's hard to find a "touring bike" that is not equipped with Shimano of some sort. With the exception of Bromptons, hub geared bikes are Shimano too

puffingbilly

Thanks for all the help as it has enabled to take this a bit further -

I guess I have an older system as its not Bluetooth compatible which is via the battery?

Anyway downloaded the software and after a few attempts manage to cycle through a few firmware updates (did they go on and on and on....!!) and got the system to recognise my parts which it did apart from the outboard TT shifters. it kinda recognised the right but then failed to synch the software.

I am not sure if the battery charger is actually charging the system as nothing happens if you try and change gear with the tri bar shifters, when you first plug the charger in (laptop or 13A socket) the orange charger light blinks along with the red and green light on the 5 port but then after sometime goes to the red fault light on the charger. Other times it blinks orange a few times then goes to the red.

It wont do a connection check without the other box, or so it tells me.

I was getting beside myself with excitement that I was getting somewhere.......

Any further advice on my trail of diagnosis appreciated.

The only part I have not been able to get to is the connection module that must be in the BB area.

It looks to me as though the battery was once in the seat post but had dropped connection end onto the BB housing.

cheers

meanredspider

I'm wondering if you have a damaged cable or connection if the battery is sat on the BB. If it's not supported in any way, sooner or later the bashing from bumps in the road etc is going to do some damage. This would possibly show up with the battery fault light that you suggest you are getting. In any case, I wouldn't leave it like that. Best thing to do is remove the BB and take a look there.

And, yes, Bluetooth capability isn't something which the older systems had and I'd imagine it's only an optional part on newer systems too.

Rodrego Hernandez

I'm sure that it was the original e-tube diagnosis kit that you need rather than the BCR-2. The BCR-2 plugs into the charging port but the original kit - SM-PCE1 plugs into any e-tube socket and will either run diagnosis on individual components as well as perform a firmware upgrade, or can be attached anywhere in the circuit and identify and problems there. By the sounds of it, you need the SM-PCE1 so that you can isolate parts of the circuit and identify the problem by means of process of elimination.

It could be something as simple as just needing to update the battery firmware as I know that has cause problems in the past but I think you need to get the other diagnostic unit rather than the BCR-2 charger.

meanredspider

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

It could be something as simple as just needing to update the battery firmware

Why would the battery firmware cause the system to fail mid-ride? I'd put money on this being a hardware issue - almost certainly related to the battery not being secured in the frame (based upon the info shared).

I should also add that the charger, combined with the port module, can be used in exactly the same way as the diagnostics device. Remember that any component can be plugged in anywhere. I see no value in spending £130. They both connect you to the eTubes software. You can even hack the BCR-2 to have an eTubes connector on it if you're feeling brave.

Rodrego Hernandez

meanredspider wrote:

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

It could be something as simple as just needing to update the battery firmware

Why would the battery firmware cause the system to fail mid-ride? I'd put money on this being a hardware issue - almost certainly related to the battery not being secured in the frame (based upon the info shared).

Because the firmware needs updating and the clash between the newer firmware in the other components causes a problem mid-ride.

He can either go through the entire circuit, checking each junction box and cable and component or get hold of the diagnostic unit and do it that way.

The battery issue is a known problem and a relatively quick fix to eliminate.

ugo.santalucia

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

Because the firmware needs updating and the clash between the newer firmware in the other components causes a problem mid-ride.

.

This is another thing I struggle with...

Let's assume I am all for electric gears... great, what's the need for software upgrades? Do the electric windows in my car need new software?
I don't understand why a circuit designed to convert the pressing of a button to a given lateral movement of a derailleur needs software updates... Can anyone explain?

craigus89

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

Because the firmware needs updating and the clash between the newer firmware in the other components causes a problem mid-ride.

.

This is another thing I struggle with...

Let's assume I am all for electric gears... great, what's the need for software upgrades? Do the electric windows in my car need new software?
I don't understand why a circuit designed to convert the pressing of a button to a given lateral movement of a derailleur needs software updates... Can anyone explain?

It doesn't "need" to be updated, I suspect it's an issue if you have newer parts fitted into an 'older' system which makes sense. Why anyone would update it for the sake of it I have no idea. I think it's habbit from being used to doing updates on computers and we assume it can only be a good thing to do, even though it's probably best left alone.

meursault

I'm with MRS on this one.

I had a conversation with a work colleague along similar lines the other day.

It was difficult to explain what, specifically is 'better' with di2 than old school, but I likened it to clipless pedal conversion. It 'feels' better. I would argue there is no 'need' for it, but if you try it, I doubt you will go back.

As for laptop connections, it's usb, like charging or updating a phone, what's the problem?

I have mechanical shifters on winter/commute and di2 on best bike. All good.

Disclaimer: Slow, mamil.

meanredspider

Craigus89 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

Because the firmware needs updating and the clash between the newer firmware in the other components causes a problem mid-ride.

.

This is another thing I struggle with...

Let's assume I am all for electric gears... great, what's the need for software upgrades? Do the electric windows in my car need new software?
I don't understand why a circuit designed to convert the pressing of a button to a given lateral movement of a derailleur needs software updates... Can anyone explain?

It doesn't "need" to be updated, I suspect it's an issue if you have newer parts fitted into an 'older' system which makes sense. Why anyone would update it for the sake of it I have no idea. I think it's habbit from being used to doing updates on computers and we assume it can only be a good thing to do, even though it's probably best left alone.

Yup - you don't NEED to update. I've NEVER updated any of my systems with a total of 10 years combined useage. What the upgrades do, though, is add capability. So, to use Ugo's analogy, when I fitted a towbar to my older Merc, it needed the system "telling" that this had been done which enabled additional functionality (the dash display warns of trailer bulb failures). Same goes for ICE changes in the car.

Di2 firmware upgrades allow for BT comms, different shifting patterns and other functionality that wasn't enabled when you bought the system.

CiB

The SM-PCE1 software box was available with a bit of Googling for about £110 when I bought mine a few years ago, from a German supplier. It's just a plastic box with the connectivity to sit between PC & Di2, but IMO it's been worth it being able to check the system occasionally, play with it to change the way it shifts and yh - updates. I keep mine updated, applying it only after a check online that it's not causing issues. There was a widely reported problem a while ago with an update that stopped systems working where a mix of 10 & 11 sp was involved. It sounds a lot, £110, but my view was and is that out of a year's income and relative to the cost of the bike and the Di2, it wasn't much, and three years on I still have full use and access to its diagnostics instead of having to show up at the LBS with my hopeful face on again.

Back to your problem. You said you fixed a pinched wire. How? Substitution, or a bit of soldering? Hopefully the former. Regardless, be logical, work your way round from end to making sure that every plug is correctly clicked fully home - use the tool that Shimano provide, not pliers, fingers or screwdriver blades. As you pull each plug out give it a good inspection to make sure there are no signs of corrosion. Best to use a strong lens and bright light for this. If everything looks right it might be an update that fixes it, it might not be. The eTube s/w will more than likely show up any points of failure though.

Shortfall wrote:

I have a similar debate about electronic music with my kids. For them the ability to access almost every song ever produced on their iPhone at the touch of a button is all that matters and I get that. It's a truly amazing evolution and I'm not knocking it. However they'll never understand how for an old fart like me there was a far more involving experience in going out and buying an LP from a shop (yeah bricks and mortar with people working inside it) and looking through all the different sleeves and then handing over hard earned money that you'd actually saved to then possess something that you can put on your shelf and touch and keep for decades. Old school HiFi tech is even having a revival as people have rediscovered the fuller, richer sounds that can be enjoyed on vinyl played through a valve amp.

Sorry, but gaah. I can't bear this attitude about streamed music. For £20 a month virtually any piece of music I can want is available, exactly when I want to hear it, in superb quality streamed as FLAC or MP3 files. Please don't say MP3 is crap, it's not. Play anyone an MP3 (320k), a CD and the FLAC equivalent in a blind test and they'd be hard-pushed to identify which is which. And the old business of having to search through vinyl in record shops used to do my head in, still does. HMV are the only local record shop for me and their policy is to squeeze as many LPs as possible into each divided section. Having a flick through is impossible, you need to lift a few out to be able to see what's behind. And the quality of vinyl is so variable that I now regret buying a turntable recently. At least most of them come with a digital download slip in the sleeve so I can get a clean hi q version that doesn't need flipping after 20 minutes. Or 13 now, with this ridiculous idea that wider grooves sound better but now an LP is on 4 sides not 2 and needs me to get up every couple of tracks to turn it over.

This all through a v good system - Naim mainly, and PMC spkrs. It's brilliant, the money spent on a turntable and a couple of dozen LPs has been money wasted as far as I'm concerned. Vinyl was great when it was the only show in town. It's been left behind.

meursault

CiB wrote:

The SM-PCE1 software box was available with a bit of Googling for about £110 when I bought mine a few years ago, from a German supplier. It's just a plastic box with the connectivity to sit between PC & Di2, but IMO it's been worth it being able to check the system occasionally, play with it to change the way it shifts and yh - updates. I keep mine updated, applying it only after a check online that it's not causing issues. There was a widely reported problem a while ago with an update that stopped systems working where a mix of 10 & 11 sp was involved. It sounds a lot, £110, but my view was and is that out of a year's income and relative to the cost of the bike and the Di2, it wasn't much, and three years on I still have full use and access to its diagnostics instead of having to show up at the LBS with my hopeful face on again.

Back to your problem. You said you fixed a pinched wire. How? Substitution, or a bit of soldering? Hopefully the former. Regardless, be logical, work your way round from end to making sure that every plug is correctly clicked fully home - use the tool that Shimano provide, not pliers, fingers or screwdriver blades. As you pull each plug out give it a good inspection to make sure there are no signs of corrosion. Best to use a strong lens and bright light for this. If everything looks right it might be an update that fixes it, it might not be. The eTube s/w will more than likely show up any points of failure though.

Shortfall wrote:

I have a similar debate about electronic music with my kids. For them the ability to access almost every song ever produced on their iPhone at the touch of a button is all that matters and I get that. It's a truly amazing evolution and I'm not knocking it. However they'll never understand how for an old fart like me there was a far more involving experience in going out and buying an LP from a shop (yeah bricks and mortar with people working inside it) and looking through all the different sleeves and then handing over hard earned money that you'd actually saved to then possess something that you can put on your shelf and touch and keep for decades. Old school HiFi tech is even having a revival as people have rediscovered the fuller, richer sounds that can be enjoyed on vinyl played through a valve amp.

Sorry, but gaah. I can't bear this attitude about streamed music. For £20 a month virtually any piece of music I can want is available, exactly when I want to hear it, in superb quality streamed as FLAC or MP3 files. Please don't say MP3 is crap, it's not. Play anyone an MP3 (320k), a CD and the FLAC equivalent in a blind test and they'd be hard-pushed to identify which is which. And the old business of having to search through vinyl in record shops used to do my head in, still does. HMV are the only local record shop for me and their policy is to squeeze as many LPs as possible into each divided section. Having a flick through is impossible, you need to lift a few out to be able to see what's behind. And the quality of vinyl is so variable that I now regret buying a turntable recently. At least most of them come with a digital download slip in the sleeve so I can get a clean hi q version that doesn't need flipping after 20 minutes. Or 13 now, with this ridiculous idea that wider grooves sound better but now an LP is on 4 sides not 2 and needs me to get up every couple of tracks to turn it over.

This all through a v good system - Naim mainly, and PMC spkrs. It's brilliant, the money spent on a turntable and a couple of dozen LPs has been money wasted as far as I'm concerned. Vinyl was great when it was the only show in town. It's been left behind.

Thread well and truly hijacked :twisted:

For me, di2 and vinyl , I stand by my earlier analogy. Vinyl may not be 'better' but it is different. There is a warmth and some more clarity to some parts of the musical spectrum. But not enough to say it's outright better. I have a vinyl setup, and I plug spotify into my amp when I want that. Best of both worlds.

meanredspider

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

He can either go through the entire circuit, checking each junction box and cable and component or get hold of the diagnostic unit and do it that way.
.

But the battery charger performs the same function as the "diagnostic unit". The diagnosis is done by the software.

The "entire circuit" is a few wires and a few components.

puffingbilly

The bcr 2 charger that I have does not do diagnostics. If I bought the blue tooth battery would that let me perform diagnostics via my I pad?

meanredspider

puffingbilly wrote:

The bcr 2 charger that I have does not do diagnostics. If I bought the blue tooth battery would that let me perform diagnostics via my I pad?

They connect you to the eTubes Project software

Rodrego Hernandez

meanredspider wrote:

puffingbilly wrote:

The bcr 2 charger that I have does not do diagnostics. If I bought the blue tooth battery would that let me perform diagnostics via my I pad?

They connect you to the eTubes Project software

Unless things have changed, only SM-PCE1 enabled you to perform the diagnostics. Even though you get the option with there BCR-2 connected to the laptop, only the SM-PCE1 would perform it.

meanredspider

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

puffingbilly wrote:

The bcr 2 charger that I have does not do diagnostics. If I bought the blue tooth battery would that let me perform diagnostics via my I pad?

They connect you to the eTubes Project software

Unless things have changed, only SM-PCE1 enabled you to perform the diagnostics. Even though you get the option with there BCR-2 connected to the laptop, only the SM-PCE1 would perform it.

To be accurate, the SM-PCE1 "may allow" (or something similar in the Shimano guide) some "advanced diagnostics" at a component level. The question above is what BT can give versus the charger. I don't believe either is better than the other from an eTubes Project point of view.

shortfall

CiB wrote:

The SM-PCE1 software box was available with a bit of Googling for about £110 when I bought mine a few years ago, from a German supplier. It's just a plastic box with the connectivity to sit between PC & Di2, but IMO it's been worth it being able to check the system occasionally, play with it to change the way it shifts and yh - updates. I keep mine updated, applying it only after a check online that it's not causing issues. There was a widely reported problem a while ago with an update that stopped systems working where a mix of 10 & 11 sp was involved. It sounds a lot, £110, but my view was and is that out of a year's income and relative to the cost of the bike and the Di2, it wasn't much, and three years on I still have full use and access to its diagnostics instead of having to show up at the LBS with my hopeful face on again.

Back to your problem. You said you fixed a pinched wire. How? Substitution, or a bit of soldering? Hopefully the former. Regardless, be logical, work your way round from end to making sure that every plug is correctly clicked fully home - use the tool that Shimano provide, not pliers, fingers or screwdriver blades. As you pull each plug out give it a good inspection to make sure there are no signs of corrosion. Best to use a strong lens and bright light for this. If everything looks right it might be an update that fixes it, it might not be. The eTube s/w will more than likely show up any points of failure though.

Shortfall wrote:

I have a similar debate about electronic music with my kids. For them the ability to access almost every song ever produced on their iPhone at the touch of a button is all that matters and I get that. It's a truly amazing evolution and I'm not knocking it. However they'll never understand how for an old fart like me there was a far more involving experience in going out and buying an LP from a shop (yeah bricks and mortar with people working inside it) and looking through all the different sleeves and then handing over hard earned money that you'd actually saved to then possess something that you can put on your shelf and touch and keep for decades. Old school HiFi tech is even having a revival as people have rediscovered the fuller, richer sounds that can be enjoyed on vinyl played through a valve amp.

Sorry, but gaah. I can't bear this attitude about streamed music. For £20 a month virtually any piece of music I can want is available, exactly when I want to hear it, in superb quality streamed as FLAC or MP3 files. Please don't say MP3 is crap, it's not. Play anyone an MP3 (320k), a CD and the FLAC equivalent in a blind test and they'd be hard-pushed to identify which is which. And the old business of having to search through vinyl in record shops used to do my head in, still does. HMV are the only local record shop for me and their policy is to squeeze as many LPs as possible into each divided section. Having a flick through is impossible, you need to lift a few out to be able to see what's behind. And the quality of vinyl is so variable that I now regret buying a turntable recently. At least most of them come with a digital download slip in the sleeve so I can get a clean hi q version that doesn't need flipping after 20 minutes. Or 13 now, with this ridiculous idea that wider grooves sound better but now an LP is on 4 sides not 2 and needs me to get up every couple of tracks to turn it over.

This all through a v good system - Naim mainly, and PMC spkrs. It's brilliant, the money spent on a turntable and a couple of dozen LPs has been money wasted as far as I'm concerned. Vinyl was great when it was the only show in town. It's been left behind.

I didn't say MP3 was crap. Good rant though.

Rodrego Hernandez

meanredspider wrote:

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

puffingbilly wrote:

The bcr 2 charger that I have does not do diagnostics. If I bought the blue tooth battery would that let me perform diagnostics via my I pad?

They connect you to the eTubes Project software

Unless things have changed, only SM-PCE1 enabled you to perform the diagnostics. Even though you get the option with there BCR-2 connected to the laptop, only the SM-PCE1 would perform it.

To be accurate, the SM-PCE1 "may allow" (or something similar in the Shimano guide) some "advanced diagnostics" at a component level. The question above is what BT can give versus the charger. I don't believe either is better than the other from an eTubes Project point of view.

OK, I'll rephrase it.

Diagnosis of any type can only be performed using the SM-PCE1

Whilst you get the option in the eTubes software with BCR-2 attached, it will not perform any diagnosis and will ask that SM-PCE1 is connected in order to perform the diagnosis.

Bluetooth using the e-tube app doesn't.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'eTubes project point of view'? This isn't a matter of opinion or point of view, it either works or it doesn't!