Di2 - Completely packed up - help

puffingbilly

Riding home last week from a TT the Di2 packed up and was unresponsive to any button with RD in about the 16.

Connected the charger and it gave a steady red light and then after a couple of hours a steady green on the JB but still unresponsive to shift buttons.

Then the FD started clicking without touching a thing but stopped after I dis-connected and re connected it. A while later the RD did same.

Found and pinched wire which I fixed.

The green light does various things after pressing a shift button.

I've pressed the reset button for 5 seconds + but nothing

Now does not do anything from clicking to anything lighting up.

Battery is in the seat tube resting on the BB shell (how i bought it) and the time before last I used it the roads were damp but not soaked

Any ideas?

ryan_w-2

Plug in your laptop and do a systems check via the E-Tube program.

cycleclinic

There is a box you can buy RRP £180 http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/shim ... d|330081UK

Trade is more that!

You down load the software from here http://e-tubeproject.shimano.com/

You may need to update the software (it may have got corrupted). You can diagnose faults too and it should tell you what you need to do. This is also why I dont have Di2. I have problems with the idea that a bike needs a software update.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

I have problems with the idea that a bike needs a software update.

THIS!

meanredspider

Quoting RRP on pretty much any Shimano product is nonsense - whoever paid RRP? RRP on this might be £180 but the price is £130

Next, often you don't need the box either.

There are also options to connect to a phone or other device using BT.

And now PMs, GPS, lights and gear changing need software - it's a concept to get used to along with the most of rest of consumer products.

svetty

If the system is borked it may not respond to attempts to access it via software?

This type of issue is what has stopped me from making the step from mechanical to electronic. I have no issues with the principle of electronic shifting but the complexity of troubleshooting and repair when it goes wrong vs the relative simplicity of mechanical is a barrier to adoption for me.

meanredspider

I think people are just frightened by electronic stuff. It's far easier than mechanical and I speak as a mechanical engineer. But, yes, if the cable has been knackered (like anything else that's been knackered) it's unlikely to work. The first step (if not already done) is to replace the cable.

ugo.santalucia

meanredspider wrote:

I think people are just frightened by electronic stuff. It's far easier than mechanical and I speak as a mechanical engineer. But, yes, if the cable has been knackered (like anything else that's been knackered) it's unlikely to work. The first step (if not already done) is to replace the cable.

I guess the problem is that bike shops are most likely clueless too... they are not trained as electric engineers and will just replace units until they hit the jackpot at your expense.
On the other hand I don't think a bunch of geeks fixing PCs will take a baike in for repair.. .so you are in no man's land and can only rely on your willingness to read hundreds of forum threads until you find what your problem is, or blindly replace parts until you replace the correct one.

Car mechanics these days have units that they plug into the car and the unit decides what they should do, but bike shop mechanics don't.

meanredspider

The thing is that there are units to plug it to tell you what's wrong and you need to to FA about electronics to plug the bits together. It's no more complicated than setting up your satellite TV box or your broadband modem. And, for 95% of the problems, just a little bit of logical thinking will solve it - in a way that is far more difficult in analogue (mechanical) systems.

Yes, it's different and new and people don't like different and new. But it is, mostly, very easy. In fact, it's pretty common to find it's completely maintenance-free.

ugo.santalucia

meanredspider wrote:

Yes, it's different and new and people don't like different and new. But it is, mostly, very easy. In fact, it's pretty common to find it's completely maintenance-free.

I get it, but if I have accumulated years of experience in dealing with mechanical problems, making me a confident mechanic who can fix issues on the road as well as off the road for peanuts, why should I bin it for the privilege of pressing a button rather than pulling a lever?

puffingbilly

I hadn't intended this to be a debate on the pro and cons of electronic vs mechanical I was just looking for a steer of the likely cause.

I have both systems, on my TT bike electronic has its advantages in being able to change gear in two hand positions including when starting or climbing out the saddle. You pays your money and takes your choice!

Thanks any way.

meanredspider

ugo.santalucia wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Yes, it's different and new and people don't like different and new. But it is, mostly, very easy. In fact, it's pretty common to find it's completely maintenance-free.

I get it, but if I have accumulated years of experience in dealing with mechanical problems, making me a confident mechanic who can fix issues on the road as well as off the road for peanuts, why should I bin it for the privilege of pressing a button rather than pulling a lever?

That logic would see us still with carburettors, points, vacuum advance, wind-up windows, etc etc. on modern cars. In fact, that logic, in extremis, would see us with candles rather than these new fangled electric lights.

Now, I know neither you or Malcolm are fans of things electronic (though you have managed to fix your Garmin 200) but the world is moving rapidly in this direction. Embrace it or be left behind. That's OK for my 82 yo dad but why don't you just learn about it? You make it sound really difficult when it's no more difficult than setting your Sky box (VHS recorder) to record Love Island or whatever you guys watch

ugo.santalucia

meanredspider wrote:

Now, I know neither you or Malcolm are fans of things electronic (though you have managed to fix your Garmin 200) but the world is moving rapidly in this direction. Embrace it or be left behind. That's OK for my 82 yo dad but why don't you just learn about it? You make it sound really difficult when it's no more difficult than setting your Sky box (VHS recorder) to record Love Island or whatever you guys watch

In the specific, I don't believe electronic gears will be as ubiquitous as you want us to believe. I see them more like automatic gears... they will have their target market, but they won't be everyone's cup of tea and they won't enter the low end of the market. Bicycles are extremely slow to change... the differences between a 1980s bicycle and one of 2017 are minimal... some minor details in the way sprockets are shifted, a few design and materials differences, but overall still a triangle of tubes with two wheels, a double chainset, a metal chain and 2 wheels of the same size.

When I'll see something meaningfully different, I might want it...

I want a Velomobiel Quest Carbon!

meanredspider

Ha - I don't "want" you to believe anything - it's just what I believe. And, given what Shimano are putting behind it across all bike types, I'm pretty sure it's what Shimano believe.

In the same way that cars haven't fundamentally changed in form for 80 years, I don't expect bikes to. But we now have electronics in PMs, GPS, lights and gears (and motors on eBikes) - that's pretty much everything possible for now.

cycleclinic

I quoted RRP then quoted a link where you can buy it for £129 MSR so I know how much he needs to pay which is why I provided the link. I am suggesting dont go and buy from a bricks and motor shop.

Also connecting to the box is the hardware way of doing it. As a mechanic I am going to suggest the way I would do it rather than the way that you might try at home with an App. I know it exists but apps work fine with some phones but not with others even if they are meant to be compatible. Think my wahoo experience.

Also by using the box of app you get to diagnose the fault (I think the app allows that). A broken cable will show up. Otherwise you are buying parts in the hope it is the cable but it could be the junction box or corrupted software. Without the diagnosis you dont actually know, you are guessing. You also get the latest version of the software for Di2 with any shifting updates. So it is worth it and it worth doing yourself rather than a shop doing it.

I offer some help and then get made to feel like I know nothing. next time I wont bother.

meanredspider

The thing is, if you have an internal battery (as most people seem to prefer, me excluded), you can use the battery charger (that you already have) as an interface for the eTube Project software.

It's cool providing help but it needs to be accurate.

You have a shed-load more knowledge than me on tubeless tyres so if I chimed in with something you didn't agree with, would you comment or just leave it because I was only trying to help?

daniel_b

meanredspider wrote:

The thing is, if you have an internal battery (as most people seem to prefer, me excluded), you can use the battery charger (that you already have) as an interface for the eTube Project software.

Really?!

This I was completely unaware of - need to investigate the App\bluetooth angle as well.

meanredspider

Daniel B wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

The thing is, if you have an internal battery (as most people seem to prefer, me excluded), you can use the battery charger (that you already have) as an interface for the eTube Project software.

Really?!

This I was completely unaware of - need to investigate the App\bluetooth angle as well.

Yup - the charger acts as an interface. It's all listed on the Shimano site.

App and BT is more complicated. You need the receiver and the correct battery (mount if external). That gets more expensive though it's a really tempting proposition as you could diagnose faults on the road (mind you, I've never had a fault on the road)

cycleclinic

The device I linked to allow the OP to connect to each component as well as to the battery, junction box allowing at bit more flexability to diagnosis. As I said this is the way a mechanic would approach it. The home mechanic may want to approach a cheaper way but there are potential pitfalls as there is less flexability depending on the nature of the problem the OP has.

MSR your approach to me and my suggestion is a bit too blunt. you do have contributions but they can be made without dismissing others.

Connecting to the battery charger may work well. A shop mechanic would use the PCe1 device though. The OP can choose.

That is the end of my contributions.

meanredspider

thecycleclinic wrote:

MSR your approach to me and my suggestion is a bit too blunt. you do have contributions but they can be made without dismissing others.

I apologise for being a bit too blunt. Maybe I worked in NL too long where they told me I needed to be far more blunt...

My understanding is that the battery unit and the connector unit you linked to perform exactly the same function so far as the eTubes software is concerned. I'd hate someone to spend £130 only to find that they had replicated just what they had in their cupboard already.

bbrap

meanredspider wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

MSR your approach to me and my suggestion is a bit too blunt. you do have contributions but they can be made without dismissing others.

I apologise for being a bit too blunt. Maybe I worked in NL too long where they told me I needed to be far more blunt...

My understanding is that the battery unit and the connector unit you linked to perform exactly the same function so far as the eTubes software is concerned. I'd hate someone to spend £130 only to find that they had replicated just what they had in their cupboard already.

Absolutely correct, the junction box supplied with internal battery set ups allows full diagnostics via eTube software.

shortfall

meanredspider wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Yes, it's different and new and people don't like different and new. But it is, mostly, very easy. In fact, it's pretty common to find it's completely maintenance-free.

I get it, but if I have accumulated years of experience in dealing with mechanical problems, making me a confident mechanic who can fix issues on the road as well as off the road for peanuts, why should I bin it for the privilege of pressing a button rather than pulling a lever?

That logic would see us still with carburettors, points, vacuum advance, wind-up windows, etc etc. on modern cars. In fact, that logic, in extremis, would see us with candles rather than these new fangled electric lights.

Now, I know neither you or Malcolm are fans of things electronic (though you have managed to fix your Garmin 200) but the world is moving rapidly in this direction. Embrace it or be left behind. That's OK for my 82 yo dad but why don't you just learn about it? You make it sound really difficult when it's no more difficult than setting your Sky box (VHS recorder) to record Love Island or whatever you guys watch

The difference as I see it is that fuel injection and electronic ignition are miles better than carbs and points and are more reliable and virtually maintenance free without adding hugely to the cost of a car. Ditto Sky Q and LED flatscreen TVs and other home electronics. Electronic shifting by contrast is hugely more expensive than its mechanical counterpart with very marginal benefits. When the cost comes right down it might be worth it but I actually prefer the tactile nature of mechanical shifting and take pride in fettling and adjusting my own gears and cables. It's part of the pleasure of bike ownership to me but I accept that others might find it a chore and prefer electronic systems which they can take to the shop when it goes t1ts up. To each his own but I side with Ugo and Malcolm here.

meanredspider

bbrap wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

MSR your approach to me and my suggestion is a bit too blunt. you do have contributions but they can be made without dismissing others.

I apologise for being a bit too blunt. Maybe I worked in NL too long where they told me I needed to be far more blunt...

My understanding is that the battery unit and the connector unit you linked to perform exactly the same function so far as the eTubes software is concerned. I'd hate someone to spend £130 only to find that they had replicated just what they had in their cupboard already.

Absolutely correct, the junction box supplied with internal battery set ups allows full diagnostics via eTube software.

I thought this was really interesting for those who have external battery set-ups

Hacking the SM-BCR2 to have a standard Di2 cable connector: If your 3-port or 5-port junction is inaccessible for charging, there is an alternative hack method to connect it to the system through a standard Di2 port. With basic soldering skills you can hack the BCR2 to be used with any setup. Buy any length EW-SD50 wire, cut off one end. Cut the wire on the output side of the BCR2. Splice the two wires together, so that the output wire of the BCR2 is now a standard Di2 connector. The charger has an inner (white) and outer (shield) wire; connect the inner white wire to the SD50 red wire; connect the charger outer shield wire to the SD50 black wire. You will then be able to plug the BCR2 into any Di2 port . Or use a SM-JC40 junction B and another length of EW-SD50 wire and go through the RD (by using the SM-JC40 to connect the rear derailleur, new output wire of the EW-SD50 , and the wire that ordinarily connect the rest of the system to the rear derailleur.) Thanks to @Di2diy for the info.

meanredspider

Shortfall wrote:

The difference as I see it is that fuel injection and electronic ignition are miles better than carbs and points and are more reliable and virtually maintenance free without adding hugely to the cost of a car. Ditto Sky Q and LED flatscreen TVs and other home electronics. Electronic shifting by contrast is hugely more expensive than its mechanical counterpart with very marginal benefits. When the cost comes right down it might be worth it but I actually prefer the tactile nature of mechanical shifting and take pride in fettling and adjusting my own gears and cables. It's part of the pleasure of bike ownership to me but I accept that others might find it a chore and prefer electronic systems which they can take to the shop when it goes t1ts up. To each his own but I side with Ugo and Malcolm here.

No - it's really the same - it's just the point in its evolution but the benefits are coming fast.

It's already more reliable and virtually maintenance free. I've not touched my Di2 in 6 years short of charging the battery (1 minute of effort every two months?). If that's not reliable and virtually maintenance free, I don't know what is.

It's not yet as cheap but that's just a matter of time - though you could argue you get slicker shifts than manual DA on Ultegra Di2 - so it's a value judgement call.

The benefits are building in a way that Mechanical can never hope to match. Shifting sequences, remote shifters, customised shifting, variable shifting, auto shifting. I'm sure, in time, the form factor of brifters will change when we realise that we don't need to worry about having brake and gear cable runs and levers to operate ratchets. But it will take time just as it has to put "flappy paddle" shifts on modern cars when people realised we don't need to move the synchro forks in the box with a lever.

It's OK to like the tactile stuff and like to fettle old stuff. I race a 60s car so I can empathise with that. But I just want to ride my bike though and take no pleasure from shifting gears - it's not what cycling is about for me. And I also want to put the bike away at the end of it and not have to fiddle with it. Just like I don't want to fettle my strimmer or my lawn mower. A bike is a trivial bit of engineering - I can't take any "pride" from adjusting a cable.

As for taking it to the shop, I think that's going to be a quaint old idea. Why would you? Plug in your computer and fix it yourself. My experience of bike shops is that they are mostly clueless about this (I suppose there's a reason they fix bikes) and there's really no need. It almost never goes wrong anyway.

mamba80

yep agree its generally reliable but i work with tech every day and the idea of having to use a laptop etc to fix a bike, in my free time, is something that fills me with horror...
i dont feel the need for all the so called benefits of shifting, clicking a lever one way or the other is good enough for me.

Though bizarrely i am drawn to etap.... and i have no idea why! prob wait for rev 2 though lol!

meanredspider

mamba80 wrote:

the idea of having to use a laptop etc to fix a bike, in my free time, is something that fills me with horror...

It does me too. But I've had one bike 6 years, another 4 years and the 3rd over a year and a laptop has never been near any of them.

shortfall

@ MRS, I don't disagree with much of what you say but I can only speak personally. I have a similar debate about electronic music with my kids. For them the ability to access almost every song ever produced on their iPhone at the touch of a button is all that matters and I get that. It's a truly amazing evolution and I'm not knocking it. However they'll never understand how for an old fart like me there was a far more involving experience in going out and buying an LP from a shop (yeah bricks and mortar with people working inside it) and looking through all the different sleeves and then handing over hard earned money that you'd actually saved to then possess something that you can put on your shelf and touch and keep for decades. Old school HiFi tech is even having a revival as people have rediscovered the fuller, richer sounds that can be enjoyed on vinyl played through a valve amp.
Returning to bikes again I see a similar parallel. I had to wait until my 40s before I could afford to have a bike custom built and I chose mechanical Record for the groupset even though it was a similar price point to Ultegra di2. Having tested a few electronic shod bikes I didn't find that any of the gimmicks it offered actually brought any benefits to my riding experience. It's not about being a luddite though. I wouldn't for instance pretend that STI's aren't infinitely superior to downtube friction shifters and so on, but there's something about the basic simplicity of a bike that appeals to me, it's sheer utilitarianism and ability to be fixed on the roadside. I look at some modern bikes with complicated internal cabling and wiring, funky headset and spacer systems, brakes under the chainstays, low spoke count factory wheels and complicated seatpost adjustment set ups and I wonder if some of this stuff is a solution looking for a problem that doesn't really exist simply to find some perceived niche in the market. I'm not against technology per se and I see the way the wind's blowing, but for now I'm in no rush to jump on the bandwagon.
Apologies to the OP for the above rant which doesn't help you fix your problem I know!

ugo.santalucia

ELectric gears address a technological need that never existed... therefore I have never been interested.

I think it's the obvious evolution for Shimano & Co. but does nothing for me. If they came out with a bicycle that does 30 mph with 200 Watt instead of 20 mph.. well, that would be game changing, as I could commute 50% longer and ride 50% further in the same time and probably have even more fun in the process.

Instead they focus on micro-innovating sticking to the strict UCI rules, which means in 30 years they have managed to make bikes which travel less than 1 mph quicker than their grannies... VERY marginal gains.

I do like innovation, I would love to own a Velomobiel quest... that is indeed something new and different and better (subject to terrain). Electric gears and infinite sprockets are just gimmicks of no practical use.

If I want to avoid blisters on a long ride I have to resort to a Brooks saddle, go figure!

craigus89

I know this is getting off of the OP's topic completely, but I tend to agree with ugo, and I own a bike with Di2. Whilst it is reliable and I have had no issues with mine at all - which is the older 6770 10 speed version - it is no more or less reliable or precise than a well tuned high-end mechanical groupset.

My wives Specialized with full mechanical ultegra has done a good amount of miles without more than a tweak of the barrel adjuster, and I could fix anything on that bike on the roadside. Cost also being a factor, I find myself jealous of my wives bike for the pure simplicity of it. I compromised on frameset and weight to get Di2 in budget, but now would much rather have my wives bike, so much so in fact that I am contemplating getting something nice and lightweight with mechanical groupset for next summer and using the Di2 bike for the winter.

When it is truly the norm and can be found on £300 'mountain' bikes that you get in halfords then maybe it can be compared to the above mentioned things found on cars, but until then I don't think that is a fair comparison.

ugo.santalucia

IMO the main issue that I stress once again is that manufacturers focus on innovation that is utterly pointless and ignore innovation which could be game changing, being that in safety or in the ability to ride further or faster. Basically they are coming up with stuff that have no more use than a trousers press or an electric knife, when they could come up with an ABS system instead.

THE ONLY interesting stuff coming out in the bike world are E-bikes... personally I am not interested (yet), but I totally get what they are trying to do. I totally don't get where the road bike market is going TBH

meanredspider

ugo.santalucia wrote:

ELectric gears address a technological need that never existed... therefore I have never been interested.

I think it's the obvious evolution for Shimano & Co. but does nothing for me. If they came out with a bicycle that does 30 mph with 200 Watt instead of 20 mph.. well, that would be game changing, as I could commute 50% longer and ride 50% further in the same time and probably have even more fun in the process.

Instead they focus on micro-innovating sticking to the strict UCI rules, which means in 30 years they have managed to make bikes which travel less than 1 mph quicker than their grannies... VERY marginal gains.

I do like innovation, I would love to own a Velomobiel quest... that is indeed something new and different and better (subject to terrain). Electric gears and infinite sprockets are just gimmicks of no practical use.

If I want to avoid blisters on a long ride I have to resort to a Brooks saddle, go figure!

It's worth just acknowledging that you're at one end of the spectrum on this and I'm at the other end. Pretty much the entire pro peleton has embraced the "gimmick", regardless of brand.

All I can figure on the Brooks is that you have a soft butt