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Ramp rate of rest week and week after rest

pmwhelanpmwhelan Posts: 15
Hi
I'm looking to train with TSS and having some trouble with the ramp numbers.

I've been training a few years now and would generally do three weeks on one week easy.
I'd try to increase the amount of work by 10% week on week and then do about 80% of the first weeks effort in my rest week.

Now I'm using the performance management chart and plugging in my estimated TSS weekly values but I'm seeing big drops and jumps in the ramp rate for the rest week and the week after.
Is less rest what I need to do to resolve it?

Thanks
p

Week | TSS | dTSS/wk | Ramp
1 530 75.71428571
2 570 81.42857143 5.714285714
3 610 87.14285714 5.714285714
4 460 65.71428571 -21.42857143
5 570 81.42857143 15.71428571

6 610 87.14285714 5.714285714
7 650 92.85714286 5.714285714
8 490 70 -22.85714286
9 610 87.14285714 17.14285714
10 650 92.85714286 5.714285714
11 690 98.57142857 5.714285714
12 520 74.28571429 -24.28571429
13 650 92.85714286 18.57142857
14 690 98.57142857 5.714285714
15 730 104.2857143 5.714285714
16 550 78.57142857 -25.71428571
17 690 98.57142857 20
18 730 104.2857143 5.714285714
19 770 110 5.714285714
20 550 78.57142857 -31.42857143

Posts

  • Tom DeanTom Dean Posts: 1,723
    The key metrics in the pmc are CTL, ATL and TSB. I don't know which software offers up the 'ramp' figures you're using here? ramp rate would usually refer to change in CTL.
  • pmwhelanpmwhelan Posts: 15
    Hi Tom

    I divided the TSS for the week by 7 to get the value in the 3rd column.
    And the ramp rate value is just the difference in the 3rd column from one week to the next.

    Thanks
    P
  • jgsijgsi Posts: 5,026
    What software are you using?
    Your own?
    Not Golden Cheetah?
  • pmwhelanpmwhelan Posts: 15
    My own
  • Tom DeanTom Dean Posts: 1,723
    All your ramp figure really does is repeat this
    pmwhelan wrote:
    I'd try to increase the amount of work by 10% week on week and then do about 80% of the first weeks effort in my rest week.
    which is fine and your weekly TSS look sensible to me. It's not telling you anything useful
  • cgfw201cgfw201 Posts: 669
    cor blimey that looks like a confusing jumble of numbers. i pay for trainingpeaks for that reason, might make life easier.
  • pmwhelanpmwhelan Posts: 15
    Tom Dean wrote:
    All your ramp figure really does is repeat this
    pmwhelan wrote:
    I'd try to increase the amount of work by 10% week on week and then do about 80% of the first weeks effort in my rest week.
    which is fine and your weekly TSS look sensible to me. It's not telling you anything useful

    Thanks Tom I'd just heard that a ramp rate of between 5-7 is optimal and it's totally thrown by my rest week.
  • pmwhelanpmwhelan Posts: 15
    cgfw201 wrote:
    cor blimey that looks like a confusing jumble of numbers. i pay for trainingpeaks for that reason, might make life easier.

    I'm hoping to get a greater understanding of the numbers.
    I don't want to just do what a coaching site tells me. I'd like to get a bit more into the detail. :)
  • pmwhelan wrote:
    Hi
    I'm looking to train with TSS and having some trouble with the ramp numbers.

    I've been training a few years now and would generally do three weeks on one week easy.
    I'd try to increase the amount of work by 10% week on week and then do about 80% of the first weeks effort in my rest week.

    Now I'm using the performance management chart and plugging in my estimated TSS weekly values but I'm seeing big drops and jumps in the ramp rate for the rest week and the week after.
    Is less rest what I need to do to resolve it?

    Thanks
    p

    Week | TSS | dTSS/wk | Ramp
    1 530 75.71428571
    2 570 81.42857143 5.714285714
    3 610 87.14285714 5.714285714
    4 460 65.71428571 -21.42857143
    What you have listed as dTSS/wk isn't dTSS/wk but rather an average TSS per day for that week.

    The Performance Manager is not based on such numbers but rather on an exponentially weighted moving average of daily TSS values, using a time constant of 42 days (typically) for CTL and 7 days (typically) for ATL.

    IOW to be able to use or consider using training load advice based on a Performance Manager approach, you'll need to use the correct formula for calculating CTL and ATL.

    As for a CTL ramp rate of 5-7 being optimal, it may or may not be. Much depends on various things such as, inter alia, your experience, prior training loads, ability to absorb such load changes, current training load, training goals, training opportunity and importantly, the composition of your training. IOW what is optimal for any individual, is, well, individually variable.
  • svettysvetty Posts: 1,904
    I'm baffled - surely by fixing your training load (10% increase x3 then 80%) you are fixing the numbers. They are simply the product of your predetermined training schedule and say nothing about your fitness - other than confirming that you are able to maintain your pre-determined training schedule? Or am I missing something?
    FFS! Harden up and grow a pair :D
  • pmwhelanpmwhelan Posts: 15
    Thanks for the inputs.

    This is the PMC that I am using
    http://www.coachcox.co.uk/2012/03/30/ho ... ent-chart/
    I'm not sure how exactly it calculates ATL and CTL
  • pmwhelanpmwhelan Posts: 15
    svetty wrote:
    I'm baffled - surely by fixing your training load (10% increase x3 then 80%) you are fixing the numbers. They are simply the product of your predetermined training schedule and say nothing about your fitness - other than confirming that you are able to maintain your pre-determined training schedule? Or am I missing something?

    CTL and ATL are modified by the daily TSS in the Performance Management Chart.
  • pmwhelan wrote:
    Thanks for the inputs.

    This is the PMC that I am using
    http://www.coachcox.co.uk/2012/03/30/ho ... ent-chart/
    I'm not sure how exactly it calculates ATL and CTL
    Your table headings are not contained in the spreadsheet you linked, which suggests to me that you are not actually using it, or at least not correctly.
  • pmwhelanpmwhelan Posts: 15
    pmwhelan wrote:
    Thanks for the inputs.

    This is the PMC that I am using
    http://www.coachcox.co.uk/2012/03/30/ho ... ent-chart/
    I'm not sure how exactly it calculates ATL and CTL
    Your table headings are not contained in the spreadsheet you linked, which suggests to me that you are not actually using it, or at least not correctly.

    I am.

    I also added two columns (Weekly TSS / 7 and Ramp Rate).

    My question ultimately is how much should your weekly TSS lower in the rest week and then go back up in the first week after the rest week.

    Thanks
    P
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 8,849
    FWIW TrainerRoad drops a bit lower in the restw eeks, around 60%. This example randomly selected from their General Build program, mid volume (6.45-7.5hrs a week).

    Week 1: 462 TSS
    Week 2: 479 TSS
    Week 3: 504 TSS
    Week 4: 289 TSS (recovery week).

    I had a look at the other plans and they're fairly similar.

    Your issue in the first post is you're calculating ramp rate based on the difference in average daily TSS from week to week, which is obviously a lot lower in the off week. You're not actually calculating ramp, just the difference in average daily TSS.

    You want to be looking at the week on week difference in CTL. So Column F in that Coach Cox spreadsheet. For example in the second image in your link, column F row 156 CTL=77.76. 7 days later the CTL = 81.42. Giving a ramp rate of ~3.7. What Alex says about 5-7 being appropriate or not is obviously true though. Personal life/stress etc is also important so someone under a lot of stress will probably not be able to sustain the same ramp rate as someone who wasn't (all else being equal).

    Ultimately what you're trying to do in the rest week is make sure you are rested for the next block. In the parlance of the spreadsheet or PMC programs that means essentially bringing the ATL back down towards the CTL (so the TSB goes from very negative to less negative/positive). Although of course training is only one aspect of fatigue, and the only one which CTL/ATL captures.
  • pmwhelan wrote:
    pmwhelan wrote:
    Thanks for the inputs.

    This is the PMC that I am using
    http://www.coachcox.co.uk/2012/03/30/ho ... ent-chart/
    I'm not sure how exactly it calculates ATL and CTL
    Your table headings are not contained in the spreadsheet you linked, which suggests to me that you are not actually using it, or at least not correctly.

    I am.

    I also added two columns (Weekly TSS / 7 and Ramp Rate).

    My question ultimately is how much should your weekly TSS lower in the rest week and then go back up in the first week after the rest week.

    Thanks
    P
    Ramp rate is the rate of change in CTL. What you have listed is not ramp rate but a change in the number you have added being weekly TSS / 7.

    Weekly TSS / 7 isn't a particularly meaningful value, other than as a guide to the average daily TSS required to attain a given change in CTL for that week.

    You probably should read this, then come back with some questions:
    https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/the- ... e-manager/
  • pmwhelan wrote:
    pmwhelan wrote:
    Thanks for the inputs.

    This is the PMC that I am using
    http://www.coachcox.co.uk/2012/03/30/ho ... ent-chart/
    I'm not sure how exactly it calculates ATL and CTL
    Your table headings are not contained in the spreadsheet you linked, which suggests to me that you are not actually using it, or at least not correctly.

    I am.

    I also added two columns (Weekly TSS / 7 and Ramp Rate).

    My question ultimately is how much should your weekly TSS lower in the rest week and then go back up in the first week after the rest week.

    Thanks
    P
    Ramp rate is the rate of change in CTL. What you have listed is not ramp rate but a change in the number you have added being weekly TSS / 7.

    Weekly TSS / 7 isn't a particularly meaningful value, other than as a guide to the average daily TSS required to attain a given change in CTL for that week.

    You probably should read this, then come back with some questions:
    https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/the- ... e-manager/

    Once you realise how CTL and associated metrics work you'll realise it's not possible to sensibly answer your question without providing the actual PMC values and much greater context.
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