TdF 2017:Rest Day 1 *Spoilers*

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  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,228
    hypster wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    hypster wrote:
    I think casualties are an unfortunate price of any event like this which is what makes it such an epic spectacle.

    That's a tricky one to get my head round. If Porte hadn't got off so relatively lightly, I'm not sure I'd be thinking the same way.

    I'm not entirely sure what you mean but there are deaths all the time in professional cycling, in training and in races. Is it something that civilised society should stop altogether?.

    What I mean is that a high chance of serious injury or death isn't a price I am willing to pay for my viewing pleasure. I don't think that is the case in cycling. I stopped watching the grand national when I decided it wasn't worth seeing good horses being killed.

    Tired riders throwing themselves down a mountain on the limit pushes the boundary for me. I'm coming around to mountain top finishes.
  • smithy21
    smithy21 Posts: 2,204
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    hypster wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    hypster wrote:
    I think casualties are an unfortunate price of any event like this which is what makes it such an epic spectacle.

    That's a tricky one to get my head round. If Porte hadn't got off so relatively lightly, I'm not sure I'd be thinking the same way.

    I'm not entirely sure what you mean but there are deaths all the time in professional cycling, in training and in races. Is it something that civilised society should stop altogether?.

    What I mean is that a high chance of serious injury or death isn't a price I am willing to pay for my viewing pleasure. I don't think that is the case in cycling. I stopped watching the grand national when I decided it wasn't worth seeing good horses being killed.

    Tired riders throwing themselves down a mountain on the limit pushes the boundary for me. I'm coming around to mountain top finishes.

    The horses don't have a choice.

    In theory the riders do- although if it gets to the point that it's decided by who is the biggest mentalist then it's gone too far.

    I am ok with it so far to vary it from MTFs with attacks in the last couple of km.
  • meursault
    meursault Posts: 1,433
    Dinyull wrote:
    Maybe the wrong thread...

    How come on stages like yesterday Sky can control the race all day long and still halfway up the final climb have 2 or 3 domestique's yet a team like Movistar with a similar budget and strength/depth (and hopes) are left with their last GC rider?

    This isn't a wink wink nudge nudge go at sky, I'm genuinely intrigued how they are always so much stronger than their rivals.

    To add to other comments, Sky seem to target the tour and everything else, they are not that bothered about.
    Superstition sets the whole world in flames; philosophy quenches them.

    Voltaire
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    meursault wrote:
    Dinyull wrote:
    Maybe the wrong thread...

    How come on stages like yesterday Sky can control the race all day long and still halfway up the final climb have 2 or 3 domestique's yet a team like Movistar with a similar budget and strength/depth (and hopes) are left with their last GC rider?

    This isn't a wink wink nudge nudge go at sky, I'm genuinely intrigued how they are always so much stronger than their rivals.

    To add to other comments, Sky seem to target the tour and everything else, they are not that bothered about.
    I don't think they are not bothered. But the best team of nine riders does the Tour, that much is true.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,340
    With descents, I think the tour isn't taking safety as lightly as some imply - I noticed pads on several roadside obstructions that might have caused injuries, and Porte lost it on a section that looked fairly innocuous - he only piled into that wall head first because he got catapulted back across the road. In retrospect resurfacing the road without using that special energy-sapping stuff they use for B-roads over here may have been a mistake, but leaving the road surface as it was might have been equally bad (in any event, I doubt the tour signed off on the asphalt used).
    Twitter: @canocola @thedreadships
  • hypster
    hypster Posts: 1,229
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    hypster wrote:
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    hypster wrote:
    I think casualties are an unfortunate price of any event like this which is what makes it such an epic spectacle.

    That's a tricky one to get my head round. If Porte hadn't got off so relatively lightly, I'm not sure I'd be thinking the same way.

    I'm not entirely sure what you mean but there are deaths all the time in professional cycling, in training and in races. Is it something that civilised society should stop altogether?.

    What I mean is that a high chance of serious injury or death isn't a price I am willing to pay for my viewing pleasure. I don't think that is the case in cycling. I stopped watching the grand national when I decided it wasn't worth seeing good horses being killed.

    Tired riders throwing themselves down a mountain on the limit pushes the boundary for me. I'm coming around to mountain top finishes.

    Yes, I see your point now. Nobody wants to see riders get injured or even crash unhurt (unless you're one of the sick bastards who hang out on TwitFace and post venom). When Cav got mangled on stage 4, I was watching live and felt physically sick. Not much the organisers could do about that but it's all part of sprint finishes just as descents are part of mountain stages.

    I guess the only answer if you don't want to see it is record and watch later trying not to witness the accidents which is what I usually do. That is very difficult given the number of times ITV4 show instances of crashes - about 8 times I think in the one hour highlights for Stage 1 and Valverde's crash. You have to watch at least once though or you lose the thread of what's going on.

    Not watching at all won't stop the problem unless several million people give up on the Tour de France and similar events and I don't see that happening within my lifetime.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    The problem with the descents is not so much the descents themselves, but more the prominence in this Tour. It is a course that is particularly balanced with few mountain top finishes and minimal time trialling. Therefore, the descents become more prominent battlegrounds - and as such more risks will be taken.

    Also stage 9 was the first proper shake up so at that point in the race every second appears more important. Later, on for example stage 17, the gaps between contenders will be bigger and the risks will seem less appetising.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,719
    To be fair to the tour, it had been resurfaced and was a long enough gap from the finish to make any time gain likely insignificant.

    They re not magic
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,340
    Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere, but LRP has spoken from his hospital bed, so the rest day thread seemed the logical place for it:

    https://twitter.com/BMCProTeam/status/884404991355740160
    Twitter: @canocola @thedreadships
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,730
    What a shame for that nice young man in the Italian champion's jersey.
    Astana's rest day hotel was a right old dump.
    The worst looking Campanile I've ever seen, which is quite something.
    On what looked like a main road through a run down commercial industrial site.
    Like a Formula 1, only cheaper. :D
    At least they had it all to themselves. :lol:

    I see that the Dutch managed to get an interview with Fabio after all, Rick.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,228
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    What a shame for that nice young man in the Italian champion's jersey.
    Astana's rest day hotel was a right old dump.
    The worst looking Campanile I've ever seen, which is quite something.
    On what looked like a main road through a run down commercial industrial site.
    Like a Formula 1, only cheaper. :D
    At least they had it all to themselves. :lol:

    I see that the Dutch managed to get an interview with Fabio after all, Rick.

    He'll be glad to hear that they are back in the same hotel tonight then...
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    What a shame for that nice young man in the Italian champion's jersey.
    Astana's rest day hotel was a right old dump.
    The worst looking Campanile I've ever seen, which is quite something.
    On what looked like a main road through a run down commercial industrial site.
    Like a Formula 1, only cheaper. :D
    At least they had it all to themselves. :lol:

    I see that the Dutch managed to get an interview with Fabio after all, Rick.

    Excellent, will have a look.

    Back in the UK now. :(
    _
  • craigus89
    craigus89 Posts: 887
    RichN95 wrote:
    My impression is that once again a lot of big stars are already at home - Porte, Valverde, Thomas, Sagan, Cavendish, Demare, Izagirre, Gesink, probably Majka. Mostly needlessly. It always happens. I'm not sure what can be done. But it's not good for the race or for sponsors.

    That list is quite crazy when you see them all together. It isn't good really, not sure what can be done though.

    I know some of the sprinters don't make it to Paris every year, but with the ones gone this year I personally have zero interest in flat stages now.
  • above_the_cows
    above_the_cows Posts: 11,406
    I'm now secretly hoping for a Bouhanni win to add excitement to the _________________ stages.
    Correlation is not causation.
  • dinyull
    dinyull Posts: 2,979
    Craigus89 wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    My impression is that once again a lot of big stars are already at home - Porte, Valverde, Thomas, Sagan, Cavendish, Demare, Izagirre, Gesink, probably Majka. Mostly needlessly. It always happens. I'm not sure what can be done. But it's not good for the race or for sponsors.

    That list is quite crazy when you see them all together. It isn't good really, not sure what can be done though.

    I know some of the sprinters don't make it to Paris every year, but with the ones gone this year I personally have zero interest in flat stages now.

    Something else that didn't make sense to me on Stage 9....why didn't Demare/FDJ arrange a grupetto going into the first climb? Or were Kittel and the others happy for him to be gone, whilst losing Trentin?

    Was obvious within about 15mins of flag dropping Demare was in a whole lot of trouble.
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,108
    Dinyull wrote:
    Something else that didn't make sense to me on Stage 9....why didn't Demare/FDJ arrange a grupetto going into the first climb? Or were Kittel and the others happy for him to be gone, whilst losing Trentin?

    Was obvious within about 15mins of flag dropping Demare was in a whole lot of trouble.


    They probably knew Demare was ill and didn't see the point in helping him stay in the race. I would guess on that sort of terrain there is less benefit in being in the autobus anyway - wait til you get at least on the penultimate big climb and then think about getting in a group for that drag to the final mountain.

    I feel a bit for FDJ as they took a gamble sending men back and ended up losing. I suppose they saw a green jersey and possibly more stages as very winnable if they could have got Demare to the rest day and that is what they were aiming for from the race.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • dinyull
    dinyull Posts: 2,979
    Ah, hadn't heard he was ill.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    Dinyull wrote:
    Something else that didn't make sense to me on Stage 9....why didn't Demare/FDJ arrange a grupetto going into the first climb? Or were Kittel and the others happy for him to be gone, whilst losing Trentin?
    Because the peloton wasn't going fast enough that others were dropped. And as for Trentin, he was involved in the Thomas/Majka crash
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,228
    Dinyull wrote:
    Ah, hadn't heard he was ill.

    He couldn't really sprint on stage 7 due to illness.
  • dinyull
    dinyull Posts: 2,979
    I really should check before I type.
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,692
    RichN95 wrote:
    Dinyull wrote:
    Something else that didn't make sense to me on Stage 9....why didn't Demare/FDJ arrange a grupetto going into the first climb? Or were Kittel and the others happy for him to be gone, whilst losing Trentin?
    Because the peloton wasn't going fast enough that others were dropped. And as for Trentin, he was involved in the Thomas/Majka crash

    When you can't hang onto the peloton from km0 it's utter madness to call three riders back to help you, on a stage with 3HC climbs.
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    Dinyull wrote:
    Something else that didn't make sense to me on Stage 9....why didn't Demare/FDJ arrange a grupetto going into the first climb? Or were Kittel and the others happy for him to be gone, whilst losing Trentin?
    Because the peloton wasn't going fast enough that others were dropped. And as for Trentin, he was involved in the Thomas/Majka crash

    When you can't hang onto the peloton from km0 it's utter madness to call three riders back to help you, on a stage with 3HC climbs.
    Few would disagree with you. But his boss is Marc Madiot and the sight of the Tricolore generally causes him to lose his mind. If La France must fall then he'll damn well take Lithuania down with her.

    gettyimages_810742764_670.jpg
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,692
    RichN95 wrote:
    Few would disagree with you. But his boss is Marc Madiot and the sight of the Tricolore generally causes him to lose his mind. If La France must fall then he'll damn well take Lithuania down with her.

    Sorry, keep forgetting to run it through the Madiot filters. It all looks eminently sensible now.
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    It's not just riders like Quintana and Pinot who are feeling the Giro in their legs.

    Jos van Emden had to DNF because he was too tired on stage 9, and Mollema is complaining of similar.

    Has anyone from the Giro done anything in this year's Tour?

    I expect we shan't see many riders at all doubling up in future.
    _
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Has anyone from the Giro done anything in this year's Tour?
    Landa's ninth. Hasn't done much work though.

    It seemed a harder than usual Giro
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • craigus89
    craigus89 Posts: 887
    Rick Chasey wrote:

    Has anyone from the Giro done anything in this year's Tour?

    I expect we shan't see many riders at all doubling up in future.

    Why is that do we think? Surely the terrain and distance of the races isn't any harder. Is it down to the higher intensity training between races undertaken nowadays?
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    Craigus89 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:

    Has anyone from the Giro done anything in this year's Tour?

    I expect we shan't see many riders at all doubling up in future.

    Why is that do we think? Surely the terrain and distance of the races isn't any harder. Is it down to the higher intensity training between races undertaken nowadays?

    1. The races used to be closer together. When Roche & Indurain did the double, the Giro ended on June 13/14. Two weeks earlier than this year. So maintaining form was easier

    2. It used to be the norm to do the Vuelta or Giro before the Tour.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Crozza
    Crozza Posts: 991
    RichN95 wrote:
    Craigus89 wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:

    Has anyone from the Giro done anything in this year's Tour?

    I expect we shan't see many riders at all doubling up in future.

    Why is that do we think? Surely the terrain and distance of the races isn't any harder. Is it down to the higher intensity training between races undertaken nowadays?

    1. The races used to be closer together. When Roche & Indurain did the double, the Giro ended on June 13/14. Two weeks earlier than this year. So maintaining form was easier

    2. It used to be the norm to do the Vuelta or Giro before the Tour.

    recovery times were faster in them days

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