TdF 2017:Rest Day 1 *Spoilers*

No_Ta_Doctor

Impressions so far?
Lots of controversy, some decent racing, but not a great deal of mano-a-mano GC action.

Televised starts have been interesting, from the peloton leaving one man to solo 200km to half the peloton making the break.

above_the_cows

I posted this in the Race or Wait discussion but you can all have it here.

On this rest day and I have discovered by accident in my university magazine the World's Worst Named Cycling Team™.

Baby-Dump Cycling Team

http://www.folia.nl/actueel/112024/hvaer-lars-is-ploegleider-van-een-wielerploeg-en-wij-volgden-hem

Dump means something different in Dutch but even then I am left wondering if this is a place that sells surplus babies.

And as for the Tour I am sad. MY MEN are having a terrible Tour. Only Stevo and Little Flower have the possibility of salvaging it for me. Come on Stevo, please!

RichN95.

My impression is that once again a lot of big stars are already at home - Porte, Valverde, Thomas, Sagan, Cavendish, Demare, Izagirre, Gesink, probably Majka. Mostly needlessly. It always happens. I'm not sure what can be done. But it's not good for the race or for sponsors.

cougie

Or the injured.

dinyull

Maybe the wrong thread...

How come on stages like yesterday Sky can control the race all day long and still halfway up the final climb have 2 or 3 domestique's yet a team like Movistar with a similar budget and strength/depth (and hopes) are left with their last GC rider?

This isn't a wink wink nudge nudge go at sky, I'm genuinely intrigued how they are always so much stronger than their rivals.

rick_chasey

Dinyull wrote:

Maybe the wrong thread...

How come on stages like yesterday Sky can control the race all day long and still halfway up the final climb have 2 or 3 domestique's yet a team like Movistar with a similar budget and strength/depth (and hopes) are left with their last GC rider?

This isn't a wink wink nudge nudge go at sky, I'm genuinely intrigued how they are always so much stronger than their rivals.

Stronger riders, basically.

gsk82

Dinyull wrote:

Maybe the wrong thread...

How come on stages like yesterday Sky can control the race all day long and still halfway up the final climb have 2 or 3 domestique's yet a team like Movistar with a similar budget and strength/depth (and hopes) are left with their last GC rider?

This isn't a wink wink nudge nudge go at sky, I'm genuinely intrigued how they are always so much stronger than their rivals.

I don't think movistars budget is that big. There are stats somewhere. They dominated the giro so I'd guess that was above the tour in their priorities

dinyull

Because of their budget, being able to hand pick the best?

Or their training techniques, getting the best out of them?

For eg, why can't BMC/Movistar/Astana sit their trains in behind sky all day, everyday keeping their noses out of the wind? Or does this risk attacks from Sky off the front they can't shut down?

Sorry if these are quite nooby questions, just something I've always wondered.

dinyull

gsk82 wrote:

Dinyull wrote:

Maybe the wrong thread...

How come on stages like yesterday Sky can control the race all day long and still halfway up the final climb have 2 or 3 domestique's yet a team like Movistar with a similar budget and strength/depth (and hopes) are left with their last GC rider?

This isn't a wink wink nudge nudge go at sky, I'm genuinely intrigued how they are always so much stronger than their rivals.

I don't think movistars budget is that big. There are stats somewhere. They dominated the giro so I'd guess that was above the tour in their priorities

Yeah, quick google and they were down £20m to Sky last year.

rick_chasey

Dinyull wrote:

Because of their budget, being able to hand pick the best?

Or their training techniques, getting the best out of them?

For eg, why can't BMC/Movistar/Astana sit their trains in behind sky all day, everyday keeping their noses out of the wind? Or does this risk attacks from Sky off the front they can't shut down?

Sorry if these are quite nooby questions, just something I've always wondered.

Mainly because they're better riders.

Arguably, for the riders that do well at sky (ergo those who tend to end up on the Tour team), sky seems to be good at getting them to peak correctly.

But then, better riders tend to be better at that anyway.

Pross

Dinyull wrote:

Maybe the wrong thread...

How come on stages like yesterday Sky can control the race all day long and still halfway up the final climb have 2 or 3 domestique's yet a team like Movistar with a similar budget and strength/depth (and hopes) are left with their last GC rider?

This isn't a wink wink nudge nudge go at sky, I'm genuinely intrigued how they are always so much stronger than their rivals.

Movistar have lost their main domestique (if you can call him that) and I think he is also the team leader in the eyes of many of the others on the team. Quintana doesn't seem to command respect and loyalty from his team mates in the same way that the real champions do. Also, as Rick says, they just don't have as strong a team. Sky target their spending towards more definite targets. That said I'm still not sure if Landa is really riding for Froome, he hasn't offered much support in the race so far but still has a top 10 position for himself.

rick_chasey

I mean, look at who they have riding as domestiques.

You've got Landa who was 3rd in the Giro with multiple GT stage wins.

You've got Kiwakowski - ex world champ who is almost as talented as Sagan and on any other team would be undisputed #1.

You had last year Wout Poels who was good enough to win LBL.

Thomas can and has won Paris Nice in his own right.

It's an embarrassment of riches.

RichN95.

Pross wrote:

Movistar have lost their main domestique (if you can call him that) and I think he is also the team leader in the eyes of many of the others on the team. Quintana doesn't seem to command respect and loyalty from his team mates in the same way that the real champions do. Also, as Rick says, they just don't have as strong a team. Sky target their spending towards more definite targets. That said I'm still not sure if Landa is really riding for Froome, he hasn't offered much support in the race so far but still has a top 10 position for himself.

While I share your thoughts on Landa, on the other hand it should be noted at this time last year people were claiming that Poels was completely out of form, not realising that his job was restricted to the third week. May be the same with Landa but he's been able to ride at the front quite comfortably.

RichN95.

A lot of English speaking journalists have got their knickers in a twist about Sky not having a press conference today (a lot of teams aren't due to the long transfer). Surely a Sky rider has been at the press conference every day.

The journalists don't seem to realise they need Sky a lot more than Sky need them.

RichN95.

Rick Chasey wrote:

I mean, look at who they have riding as domestiques.

You've got Landa who was 3rd in the Giro with multiple GT stage wins.

You've got Kiwakowski - ex world champ who is almost as talented as Sagan and on any other team would be undisputed #1.

You had last year Wout Poels who was good enough to win LBL.

Thomas can and has won Paris Nice in his own right.

It's an embarrassment of riches.

Their line up is:

Three time winner
Paris-Nice, E3 winner
Paris-Nice winner
Giro 3rd & King of the Mountains
Giro King of the Mountains
World Champion, Milan-San Remo Winner
World TT champion
German Champion
Maindy Flyers rider of the year

kingstongraham

Majka has nothing broken, but looks like everything cut and bruised. Did the last 100km yesterday with bandages on both elbows, left knee, left hip, cut on right knee, left shin, and massive scrape across his chest.

Not decided yet whether he will continue.

Lanterne_Rogue

I reckon the tour has overdelivered so far against the hype, which is unusual. We all expected the flat stages to be dull, so no loss there, and the weekend was immense. It's not just the riders who needed a rest day.

Shame about the riders we've lost, but the attrition isn't much worse than usual, I hope. GC battle may or may not kick off properly, but that should always be a test match, not twenty20.

philwint

I found this form Cycling Weekly from last year

Tour de France team budgets (estimated)
Team Sky – €35m
Katusha – €32m
BMC – €28m
Tinkoff – €25m
Astana – €20m
Etixx-Quick Step – €18m
Movistar – €15m
Lotto-Soudal – €14m
LottoNL-Jumbo – €14m
Dimension Data – €13.5m
Orica-BikeExchange – €13m
Giant-Alpecin – €12.5m
Trek-Segafredo – €12m
Ag2r La Mondiale – €12m
Cofidis – €11m
IAM Cycling – €10.5m
FDJ – €10m
Cannondale – €10m
Lampre-Merida – €7m
Direct Energie – €6m
Bora-Argon 18 – €4.5m
Fortuneo-Vital Concept – €3.5m

Read more at http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/racin ... dqqqTrV.99

bobmcstuff

PTP has been quite variable.

Not a single point was scored on Stage 8

Current yellow jersey is Key. Followed by smithy21 only 2 points back, with ShockedSoShocked and NervexProf another 4 points back.

HOWEVER - the top 3 all have Porte as their PTP, so the virtual GC leader is really NervexProf.

There's then a group of 7 within 5 points of the podium. It's pretty close at the moment!

kingstongraham

Looking far ahead, there's another descent to the finish off the Galibier on stage 17. If they go for it like yesterday, down as far as the Lautaret I'd fear for the safety of the cows.

blazing_saddles

Dinyull wrote:

Maybe the wrong thread...

How come on stages like yesterday Sky can control the race all day long and still halfway up the final climb have 2 or 3 domestique's yet a team like Movistar with a similar budget and strength/depth (and hopes) are left with their last GC rider?

This isn't a wink wink nudge nudge go at sky, I'm genuinely intrigued how they are always so much stronger than their rivals.

By losing time to the break on climbs, they were able to keep Rowe and Knees on the front until the Grand Colombier and then have Kwiatkowski for that and his speciality, the downhill and the following flat.

Movistar have just plain got it wrong this year. On paper, their team selection looked "lite" with Valverde; without, just plain weak. The form of the riders they have brought doesn't seem to me to be up to par for the team, either.

RichN95.

bobmcstuff wrote:

HOWEVER - the top 3 all have Porte as their PTP, so the virtual GC leader is really NervexProf.

Oh balls. I'd forgotten I'd done that too.

ContrelaMontre

bobmcstuff wrote:

PTP has been quite variable.

Not a single point was scored on Stage 8

Current yellow jersey is Key. Followed by smithy21 only 2 points back, with ShockedSoShocked and NervexProf another 4 points back.

HOWEVER - the top 3 all have Porte as their PTP, so the virtual GC leader is really NervexProf.

There's then a group of 7 within 5 points of the podium. It's pretty close at the moment!

Still a little bit gutted about Serge Pauwels on stage 8, very close to calling that right but no points unfortunately.

RichN95.

Majka has gone home

kingstongraham

RichN95 wrote:

Majka has gone home

"I can hardly breathe because of the pain"

How on earth they get back on the bike is incredible.

Vino'sGhost

KingstonGraham wrote:

Looking far ahead, there's another descent to the finish off the Galibier on stage 17. If they go for it like yesterday, down as far as the Lautaret I'd fear for the safety of the cows.

AHAHAHA yes the cows are a menace there.

Re the tour taking out riders, some measures such as proper cushioning not rails on possible spill points should be done. But the whole race shouldn't be designed solely with safety in mind or it would be a series of turbo sessions. When people ride on the limit they make mistakes. Its the nature of pushing yourself.

Porte didn't need to ride down the mountain at that speed he could have gone much more slowly, just like cavendish didn't need to come down the side, he could have sat up and rolled over the line and Valverde didn't need to ride at the speed he did round the bend in the wet at a point where others had already fallen But then it wouldn't be much of a sport.

I hate seeing them get injured but i applaud the effort and risk and thank god its not being namby pambyd out of existence.

hypster

Vino'sGhost wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

Looking far ahead, there's another descent to the finish off the Galibier on stage 17. If they go for it like yesterday, down as far as the Lautaret I'd fear for the safety of the cows.

AHAHAHA yes the cows are a menace there.

Re the tour taking out riders, some measures such as proper cushioning not rails on possible spill points should be done. But the whole race shouldn't be designed solely with safety in mind or it would be a series of turbo sessions. When people ride on the limit they make mistakes. Its the nature of pushing yourself.

Porte didn't need to ride down the mountain at that speed he could have gone much more slowly, just like cavendish didn't need to come down the side, he could have sat up and rolled over the line and Valverde didn't need to ride at the speed he did round the bend in the wet at a point where others had already fallen But then it wouldn't be much of a sport.

I hate seeing them get injured but i applaud the effort and risk and thank god its not being namby pambyd out of existence.

I agree there should have been pads on the outside of the corners for that TT course. You could argue however, that the safer you make any stage, the harder the riders are going to push the limits which could result in even more crashes. I think casualties are an unfortunate price of any event like this which is what makes it such an epic spectacle.

rick_chasey

So Tuesday and Wednesday are flat sprint stages.

Thursday is a proper day, with a cheeky steep short climb straight up after the climb up to the top of the Peyresourde, and an HC and 1st cat before that.

Friday is a bonkers 100km ride that even I'd be comfortable smashing out at a decent pace (albeit with three 1st cats), so it will be bananas.

Saturday could either be a sprint or a breakaway group finish, but nothing hugely exciting.

Sunday is one of those hard to place stages that could be juicy because it looks like a decent breakaway stage, but not one to watch from the gun.

So the 2nd week looks a little weak...

kingstongraham

hypster wrote:

I think casualties are an unfortunate price of any event like this which is what makes it such an epic spectacle.

That's a tricky one to get my head round. If Porte hadn't got off so relatively lightly, I'm not sure I'd be thinking the same way.

hypster

KingstonGraham wrote:

hypster wrote:

I think casualties are an unfortunate price of any event like this which is what makes it such an epic spectacle.

That's a tricky one to get my head round. If Porte hadn't got off so relatively lightly, I'm not sure I'd be thinking the same way.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean but there are deaths all the time in professional cycling, in training and in races. Is it something that civilised society should stop altogether? It used to be said that people watched Formula 1 for the crashes but I never subscribed to that point of view but it's inescapable that the element of danger does add to the spectacle otherwise they would all be going round in bumper cars at 30 mph.

It's riders like Bardet and Froome who push the limits and still get down that we applaud. Richie Porte always seems to be the unfortunate crash test dummy. I wanted him to win the Dauphine and in the absence of Froome he would have been my second pick for the Tour. For some reason he just doesn't seem to have that 1% element of luck on his side necessary to be a real champion, great rider that he is.

above_the_cows

KingstonGraham wrote:

Looking far ahead, there's another descent to the finish off the Galibier on stage 17. If they go for it like yesterday, down as far as the Lautaret I'd fear for the safety of the cows.

This is very important.