Tubeless kit advice

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

When exposed to air by a puncture the Ph change cause the latex to come out of solution and the particulates in suspension then stick to the latex causing the hole to plug.

Why would the pH change on exposure to air? Nitrogen and oxygen have no effect, argon of course has no effect, water has no effect... that leaves CO2, that might have an effect, but there is 0.03% of it in the air.
Here's my chemistry free theory:I think sealant particles like to attach to rubber, in fact they typically coat the inside of a tyre permanently, so when you puncture you expose new rubber they can attach to. The particles already present in the suspension end up plugging the hole. Pretty sure if you were to conduct a test in pure nitrogen, it would seal just as well

veryslowtwitch

thanks to cycleclinic for a very interesting discussion and video. I have been running tubeless for over a year but still have a lot to learn. I will try the techniques but will carry a tube just in case!

sloppyschleckonds

veryslowtwitch wrote:

I have been running tubeless for over a year but still have a lot to learn. I will try the techniques but will carry a tube just in case!

Have you ever used it?

joe2008

veryslowtwitch wrote:

thanks to cycleclinic for a very interesting discussion and video. I have been running tubeless for over a year but still have a lot to learn. I will try the techniques but will carry a tube just in case I run over a rather large screwdriver

SME

The guy at my LBS said something about not using CO2 when he fitted my tubeless' - I did consider it but will stick to a mini hand pump.

The video is interesting - I've seen a few like that, banging various nails into a tyre or riding over a row of them. It's what prompted me to go tubeless. And so far I'm quite enjoying them. They seem to cut road buzz quite a bit too. Should have got them earlier!

ugo.santalucia

SME wrote:

The guy at my LBS said something about not using CO2 when he fitted my tubeless' - I did consider it but will stick to a mini hand pump.

The video is interesting - I've seen a few like that, banging various nails into a tyre or riding over a row of them. It's what prompted me to go tubeless. And so far I'm quite enjoying them. They seem to cut road buzz quite a bit too. Should have got them earlier!

If only they were cheaper and more available... right now you can't find anything for less than 40 quid a tyre... a pair of top of the range Corsa G+ are 36 each on Wiggle... that seems largely unfair

Ted Mason

I never knew about the repair kit, I have been carrying two tubes with me in case I have punctures in both wheels. I have had three punctures in two years one in the dry where I stopped, rotated the wheel so that the sealant was at the bottom topped up the air pressure with my pump and then cracked on. The other two occurred in the wet where the water tended to wash out the sealant and it seemed to take forever for the puncture to seal. I've been using Stans No Tubes wheels with Shwalbe Pro One 25mm tyres and find them really good, comfortable, grippy and quite long lasting. I will now get a repair kit and reduce the size of my saddle bag :-)

cycleclinic

ugo, I have never found a conclusive explanation as how sealant works. I am making my best educated guess. I would actually like to know the true answer. one reason maybe that the CO2 is dry but I dont know how that would cause the latex to fall out of solution.

Tubeless tyre simply cost more to make that why they are more expensive. Also when people compare tubeless bike tyres to car tyre prices they forget the difference in volumes manufacured have a big impact on price. Also I would not put a £40 tyre anywhere near my car. My £500 car has tyres that cost me £125 per end because they grip. cheap tyres are cheap for a reason.

cycleclinic

Try effetto mariposa sealant it seals bigger holes more reliably than stans does.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

ugo, I have never found a conclusive explanation as how sealant works. I am making my best educated guess. I would actually like to know the true answer. one reason maybe that the CO2 is dry but I dont know how that would cause the latex to fall out of solution.

Tubeless tyre simply cost more to make that why they are more expensive. Also when people compare tubeless bike tyres to car tyre prices they forget the difference in volumes manufacured have a big impact on price. Also I would not put a £40 tyre anywhere near my car. My £500 car has tyres that cost me £125 per end because they grip. cheap tyres are cheap for a reason.

I think the reason CO2 spoils latex is the same reason as freezing milk or another emulsion might result in it splitting. I would say that full fat milk and sealant have a lot in common in this respect... but please don't try to use milk to seal a puncture...

SME

Maybe there should be a 'GCN does science' bit here...

I know that freezing foods can be a difficult process - freezing causes water in cell membranes to expand and damage the cells hence altering the taste of foods. Freezing slowly causes large ice crystals so more damage - freezing quickly produces smaller ice crystals and less damage (that's why it's recommended on a new freezer to chil to the lowets temperature before loading with food).

I too am wondering if the sealant behaves in a similar fashion - once whatever keeps it liquid is frozen, it will be unable to return to it's normal state???

Milk as a sealant? Could be worse - could have latex in your tea (might seal things you don't want sealed )

cycleclinic

CO2 maybe cold but I dont think it freezes the sealant. After using CO" I have removed a tyre and there is still liquid not much but some. The latex is all over the inside of the tyre though. It happens very rapidly

feisty

SME wrote:

Hi.

I've just taken the plunge and swapped to tubeless tyres. The main reason was the amount of punctures I was getting on my commute to work - even if I can reduce these it would be a bonus, but I know no tyre is completely foolproof. And I'm impressed so far with the 'ride quality'.

I have two questions...

1) What to carry for that 'hopefully never needed' roadside repair... a spare inner tube and tyre levers, or a tubeless repair kit (rubber 'worms')?

2) Can anyone recommend a decent mini pump? I have an Axiom Blastair which has been fine up until now, but doesn't seem to fit the new valves too well (it has to be held on very 'securely' - the rubber seal just about reaches the thread on the valve, if this makes sense).

Thanks in advance for any help.
Steve

On my commute - in London - I carry a mobile phone which has the "hailo" app on it (Black cabs will take you and your bike). I've never had to use it in 3 years though.

I'm moving back to tubes on bike for weekend rides in Kent as I don't want to get stranded and I'm not confident of my ability to apply any of the fixes in the rare event I have a puncture that won't seal

joe2008

feisty wrote:

On my commute - in London - I carry a mobile phone which has the "hailo" app on it (Black cabs will take you and your bike). I've never had to use it in 3 years though.

I'm moving back to tubes on bike for weekend rides in Kent as I don't want to get stranded and I'm not confident of my ability to apply any of the fixes in the rare event I have a puncture that won't seal

I have breakdown cover with ETA: https://my.eta.co.uk/breakdown/bicycle/quote/

£18 a year covers bicycle rescue (including punctures).

I've had it for the two years that I've been tubeless, but haven't used it yet; cheap enough for peace of mind.

clickrumble

Re the CO2 versus sealant: I've noticed this a couple of times - just leaving a clear liquid in the tyre with no sealing properties. Each time it's happened has been after a failed attempt to re-inflate the tyre with CO2 after a large puncture which didn't seal. It seems to me that the problem occurs when a high volume of CO2 is injected quickly into the tyre, it's ok if you just use a small quantity to top up when out on the road. I've also used CO2 to seat the tyre initially and it seems ok but I've always let the CO2 out and inflated with air straight after. After reading this thread I've decided to buy an Airblast pump for initial tyre seating.

veryslowtwitch

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

veryslowtwitch wrote:

I have been running tubeless for over a year but still have a lot to learn. I will try the techniques but will carry a tube just in case!

Have you ever used it?

I used a tube for a 2mm gash which sealant would not seal. in retrospect a worm could have sealed it. It was easy to put the tube in but on returning home I then needed 40 minutes to take out tube, clean remaining sealant from me, wheel, tube, tyre, bike, garage floor, patch tyre and reinstall. So the worms are tempting.

ugo.santalucia

joe2008 wrote:

feisty wrote:

On my commute - in London - I carry a mobile phone which has the "hailo" app on it (Black cabs will take you and your bike). I've never had to use it in 3 years though.

I'm moving back to tubes on bike for weekend rides in Kent as I don't want to get stranded and I'm not confident of my ability to apply any of the fixes in the rare event I have a puncture that won't seal

I have breakdown cover with ETA: https://my.eta.co.uk/breakdown/bicycle/quote/

£18 a year covers bicycle rescue (including punctures).

I've had it for the two years that I've been tubeless, but haven't used it yet; cheap enough for peace of mind.

Don't know... I suppose it's OK if you cycle in places which are covered by mobile phone signal... I find myself more often than not short of signal, especially so on very big rides. I also wonder how long it would take them to get to the top of Bealach Na Ba, for instance, assuming they even consider driving up there.

roger_merriman

ugo.santalucia wrote:

joe2008 wrote:

feisty wrote:

On my commute - in London - I carry a mobile phone which has the "hailo" app on it (Black cabs will take you and your bike). I've never had to use it in 3 years though.

I'm moving back to tubes on bike for weekend rides in Kent as I don't want to get stranded and I'm not confident of my ability to apply any of the fixes in the rare event I have a puncture that won't seal

I have breakdown cover with ETA: https://my.eta.co.uk/breakdown/bicycle/quote/

£18 a year covers bicycle rescue (including punctures).

I've had it for the two years that I've been tubeless, but haven't used it yet; cheap enough for peace of mind.

Don't know... I suppose it's OK if you cycle in places which are covered by mobile phone signal... I find myself more often than not short of signal, especially so on very big rides. I also wonder how long it would take them to get to the top of Bealach Na Ba, for instance, assuming they even consider driving up there.

Even in the Home Counties there are areas with no reception so if your relying on a response need to walk, to some where that does have reception.

cycleclinic

just learn to fix tubless tyres it is alot simpler. It barely takes any learning as well. Also as I have tried pointing out many times it is not just using worms. Worms + flexible superglue is how you fix a proper hole worms by themselves may leak. The superglue by itself will do a better job than the worms alone. The two together though fix a big hole far more permently than either by itself. Tubes with tubeless are just hassle.

ugo.santalucia

thecycleclinic wrote:

just learn to fix tubless tyres it is alot simpler. It barely takes any learning as well. Also as I have tried pointing out many times it is not just using worms. Worms + flexible superglue is how you fix a proper hole worms by themselves may leak. The superglue by itself will do a better job than the worms alone. The two together though fix a big hole far more permently than either by itself. Tubes with tubeless are just hassle.

My experience with superglue in general: half the times, the nozzle is seized with dried up glue, because I haven't used it for 6 months or so... then I have to find a needle... of course one could carry a needle, doesn't weigh much a needle... but go and find it when you need it... it's like, well, it's like finding a needle in a haystack :roll:

... and that drop of superglue that spilled on your best 150 quid jacket and ruined it permanently... ah, the tube, was a bit of a hassle to fit, but not such a bad proposition after all...

veryslowtwitch

Does superglue work in the wet?

SME

veryslowtwitch wrote:

Does superglue work in the wet?

I don't think you'll be able to stick anything while wet - I had a few drops of superglue land in some used washing up water once and it cures almost immediately.

Incedentally, for a longer life I store my superglues in the fridge.

As to carrying a pin to unblock it, use a safety pin that you can tuck away on your jersey somewhere. May come in handy if ever you zip breaks on a saddle bag or such.

cycleclinic

yes it does work in the wet. In fact if its dry spit on the superglue and it hardens quicker. Ignore the above poster.

I would not suggest it if it failed in the wet! I ride every day near enough come rain wind or shine.

veryslowtwitch

thanks to all for tips. Nearly all the major online retailers are out of stock for the Genuine Innovations kit retailing at about a fiver so I have just paid nine quid for five worms and the little applicator from a nameless shop! I will carry these with glue and report back.

It is a very interesting area because I have only been aware of three punctures in the past year with tubeless but my tyre is occasionally unexpectedly soft suggesting that I may well have had several tiny self-sealing holes but will never know.

Final question for cycleclinic: I have watched the video showing you smearing glue around the outside. Wouldn't it be better to coat worms in glue before inserting to really clog up the hole?

bobones

I've had my first tubeless puncture on my Schwalbe Pro One Evos. It seems to be a small hole caused by a piece of flint. The hole sealed, but I had to top up the pressure with CO2 on the road, so I deflated the tyre and added some fresh Stan's sealant when I got home. The hole seems to have sealed for the most part, but sometimes sealant oozes out in a small droplet. After a ride of around 3 hours last night, I noticed the tyre pressure had dropped quite a bit and there was evidence of more sealant having oozed from the hole.

I've pumped up the tire to 80 psi and it doesn't seem to be leaking (at 90 I was getting a droplet of sealant showing), but should I think about doing a better repair either with a worm or a patch on the inside of the tyre? The hole seems a bit too small to use a worm on so I am thinking a patch would be better. Do normal vulcanizing patches work on these tyres or does superglue without a worm help in this scenario?

clickrumble

My experience with worms is not good, if I get a hole that looks like it might cause a few problems even though it's plugged with sealant I take the tyre off and put a patch on the inside when I'm home.

sloppyschleckonds

Bear in mind advise from Malcolm that some sealants don't respond well to CO2

SME

thecycleclinic wrote:

yes it does work in the wet. In fact if its dry spit on the superglue and it hardens quicker. Ignore the above poster.

I would not suggest it if it failed in the wet! I ride every day near enough come rain wind or shine.

Sorry sir...
May I respectfully ask why... " Ignore the above poster." when you then say "I would not suggest it if it failed in the wet!"

We both seem to know super glue will activate quicker in the wet to the extent it may not completely adhere to a wet surface.

Having flown R/C model aircraft, I know of 4 different types - varying viscosities. Thin ones will wick along wood (balsa) grain, the usual 'known' type, and a thicker gap filling glue, and also one that is friendly to some plastics and foam (that other cyanoacrylates can melt). I didn't know there was a 'flexible' type too - does this behave differently in the wet?

Thanks,
Steve

kayakerchris

As a precaution for yesterdays 390km ride I bought a little tube of flexible superglue and some worms. Happy to say that they worked perfectly and kept the puncture fairy away!

I have been tubeless for about 5 years and never had a puncture that i had to do anything about so far. I do like the idea of the rubber superglue though as an aid to keeping going. Virtually no weight penalty and helpful.

cycleclinic

Bobones id try the flexible superglue. It fixed a simiilar puncture for me in scarbourgh before i rode back to suffolk. I did not even deflate the tyre as i could not be arsed pumping it up again. If the glue fails try patching the hole but you may need superglue to get it stick securely.

Given i have used the flexible superglue on dirty wet tyres before i know it works. Given flexible superglue has rubber in it it adheres very well to tyres even in the wet. The standard glue appears to have adherance issues as the tyre flexes.