Maybe we are not doomed after all

pblakeney

Pinno wrote:

The building of wind farms in Denmark for another example, rarely meet opposition as most of them are co-operatively owned. In fact, the co-operative ethic was born in Scandinavia. It's also prevalent in the Basque region.

Stupid socialists, operating for the common good. How is one to make a profit from that?
Sarcasm, in case it is not obvious.

FocusZing

Try and fight my way through all the political threads and "I am considerably richer than Yews" ones.

An Australian state will install the world's largest lithium ion battery in a "historic" deal with electric car firm Tesla and energy company Neoen.
The battery will protect South Australia from the kind of energy crisis which famously blacked out the state, Premier Jay Weatherill said.
Tesla boss Elon Musk confirmed a much-publicised promise to build it within 100 days, or do it for free.
The 100-megawatt (129 megawatt hour) battery should be ready this year.
"There is certainly some risk, because this will be largest battery installation in the world by a significant margin," Mr Musk said in Adelaide on Friday.
He added that "the next biggest battery in the world is 30 megawatts".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-40527784

Thats going to be one hell of a lot of individual cells.

rjsterry

FocusZing wrote:

Try and fight my way through all the political threads and "I am considerably richer than Yews" ones.

An Australian state will install the world's largest lithium ion battery in a "historic" deal with electric car firm Tesla and energy company Neoen.
The battery will protect South Australia from the kind of energy crisis which famously blacked out the state, Premier Jay Weatherill said.
Tesla boss Elon Musk confirmed a much-publicised promise to build it within 100 days, or do it for free.
The 100-megawatt (129 megawatt hour) battery should be ready this year.
"There is certainly some risk, because this will be largest battery installation in the world by a significant margin," Mr Musk said in Adelaide on Friday.
He added that "the next biggest battery in the world is 30 megawatts".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-40527784

Thats going to be one hell of a lot of individual cells.

Assuming it's reliable that kind of thing will knock on the head the "it's not always sunny/windy" arguments against renewables.

sungod

FocusZing wrote:

Damn! I'm a coalist, the greater the global warming the better the climate for growing cool fruit fruit trees in the UK, peaches, avocados, oranges...

i'd thought coal was on the way out, but this was in the paper a few days ago...

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/01/clim ... hange.html

pinno

That seems to be the way with China. They say one thing and do another. It's hard to get a true picture. 3 years ago they vowed to cut down on illegal Ivory. Nothing really happened. This year they vowed to close all the Ivory carving workshops and most of the retail outlets by the end of this year.
We just wonder if they will or it's all PR. Yet, ITV news did a report just a couple of nights ago and show cased a small port in South China where ivory is being openly traded on a huge scale.
In an ostensibly totalitarian state where there are 2700 executions plus per annum and given the military resources they have, there is no way they do not have the capability of shutting anything to do with Ivory or any other animal parts trade down in an instant.
When a country as large and as powerful as China does something, everyone is powerless seemingly. We also go cap in hand looking for Chinese investment. It's a situation not unlike our relationship with Saudi Arabia. We rely on them and can therefore apply no pressure other than empty rhetoric.

nickice

PBlakeney wrote:

Pinno wrote:

The building of wind farms in Denmark for another example, rarely meet opposition as most of them are co-operatively owned. In fact, the co-operative ethic was born in Scandinavia. It's also prevalent in the Basque region.

Stupid socialists, operating for the common good. How is one to make a profit from that?
Sarcasm, in case it is not obvious.

I believe that one of the main problems with cooperatives is that too much money is taken out of them rather than invested. No system is perfect.

pinno

nickice wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

Pinno wrote:

The building of wind farms in Denmark for another example, rarely meet opposition as most of them are co-operatively owned. In fact, the co-operative ethic was born in Scandinavia. It's also prevalent in the Basque region.

Stupid socialists, operating for the common good. How is one to make a profit from that?
Sarcasm, in case it is not obvious.

I believe that one of the main problems with cooperatives is that too much money is taken out of them rather than invested. No system is perfect.

Cooperatives work much better in less hedonistic societies. We have lost a lot of our community spirit. Everything is someone else's responsibility.

TheBigBean

55 hours without coal

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... oal-plants

meursault

Pinno wrote:

Just like Communications, energy is a national concern. Japan's rail and the new magnetic train cost a fortune to build but is still relatively cheap to travel on as it is heavily subsidised by the government as it is in everyone's interest to have good, reliable, affordable communications.
The building of wind farms in Denmark for another example, rarely meet opposition as most of them are co-operatively owned. In fact, the co-operative ethic was born in Scandinavia. It's also prevalent in the Basque region.

Reducing energy prices in the UK could cut costs to businesses significantly. Doesn't British businesses and industry pay nearly the highest amount per kw in Europe?
How much of Hinckley will be owned by the state?
Why are we relying on the profit makers to have such a huge influence in energy supply?

Our ability to compete on a global scale is hampered by poor communications and very high energy costs. Hinckley will do little to alleviate the latter. If we increase rail use and encourage investment in rail, then it will not benefit the former either.
Cross rail is being delivered at a massive cost but will rely on electricity. We will end up with a Concorde scenario yet again: Too long to build, over budget and under subsidised with the caveat that a minimum price needs to be met to pay off the debts and contributors associated with it. It will ultimately be more expensive than originally anticipated to use.
Would it be correct to say that essential Nationally owned services will never materialise given the political backdrop and our record/the public's perception of Nationalisation or would that be impossible anyway as we are UK PLC and most things are owned by some company, domestic or foreign?

Nail on head.

We're still doomed, until we change how society is organised. We could do things right, or we can make a profit. Breaks my heart.

TheBigBean

https://e360.yale.edu/digest/britains-c ... en-in-1890

robert88

Apparently the Chinese are going hell for leather to produce fusion reactors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimen ... ng_Tokamak

As might be expected the US programme is threatened by cuts proposed by Trump*

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pow ... 19cf5ebd37

The Chinese version is naturally going to be far cheaper anyway:

According to official reports, the project's budget is CNY ¥300 million (approx. USD $37 million), some 1/15 to 1/20 the cost of a comparable reactor built in other countries.

So there.


* presumably it's of little interest to the US Presidential genius because you can't make a bomb out it.

TheBigBean

The world hits one terawatt of wind and solar.

https://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/3 ... -and-solar

slowbike

TheBigBean wrote:

https://e360.yale.edu/digest/britains-co2-emissions-have-fallen-to-levels-last-seen-in-1890

yup - on the face of it that looks good ... until you think about all the things we used to make "in house" that is now made overseas and shipped in ... does the data take into account the CO2 emissions for the manufacture and transport of imported goods?

veronese68

Slowbike wrote:

...does the data take into account the CO2 emissions for the manufacture and transport of imported goods?

I very much doubt it does. But when you consider population size now it puts a better light on it, still a long way to go though.

Pross

TheBigBean wrote:

The world hits one terawatt of wind and solar.

https://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/3 ... -and-solar

One for the irony thread if the current weather conditions, potentially created by climate change, are helping generate power from solar and wind.

cycleclinic

Thje problem is ugo if we less dependant on oil we will find something else to fight about. climate change and the water shortage is going to drive cival unrest and wars for decades to come. The syrian conflict in part is believed to be climate change driven in that it creates the conditions for unrest.

FocusZing

My fruit trees are fantastic this year. This global warming is Lush!

If you want to help out don't forget to turn your aircon on 24/7. When I get too cold I turn the heating on works a treat.

FocusZing

So Lewis Hamilton fly's to a beach and gets all upset about plastic pollution.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news.sky ... h-11464863

Hang on a minute don't you drive around in a ponced up car all day not going anywhere and fly about on a whim in a private jet. These eco celebs really grip my sh1t.

If you really want to get political about the environment, stop traveling, grow your own food, make your own clothes, stop using any technology and write letters to communicate your disapproval.

FocusZing

What happens to carbon fibre products when they become dated or break?

Matthewfalle

FocusZing wrote:

What happens to carbon fibre products when they become dated or break?

They put it in huge water tanks where it breaks back down and re-cycle it (no pun intended)

FocusZing

Dyson cars.

The company best known for its vacuums and domestic appliances bought the disused airfield at Hullavington two years ago.
Dyson has already renovated two hangars built in 1938 at the 517-acre site.
That redevelopment has cost £84m and the next phase of the airfield's development would take Dyson's total investment to £200m.
About 400 automotive staff are now based at Hullavington and a further three buildings will open in the coming months, offering an additional 15,000 sq m of testing space.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45345778

Interesting development. Hope they can pull it off.

lostboysaint

It is quite odd that in five pages no-one has got to the obvious solution for an island. Tidal power is the solution that should have been investigated significantly more than solar or wind because it is absolutely NOT weather dependent. The energy stored in moving water is much higher than other sustainable sources and it's guaranteed as long as the earth keeps spinning.

Yes the infrastructure costs are generally believed to be higher but so are the returns. If the government can subsidise Hinkley then why not subsidise a tidal power station on the same stretch of coastline? Most of it isn't navigable for much of the time so use the flood and ebb tides to create power.

Ecological impact is the biggest concern - but then that's no different to having fields full of panels killing off crops and wind turbines smashing birds to pulp or changing air flows which affect the environment around them (not to mention the bird strikes.

Bizarre that as an island nation that sees all that energy literally washing ashore and then the same energy leaving again twice a day, every day for the whole life of the planet we haven't done anything with it.

FocusZing

Yes, the Severn barrage should have been built.

tangled_metal

IIRC there was a lot of investment in tidal and wave power at UK universities by UK government at one time. There was an especially interesting development off the North Sea coast. UK was a major player in the technology.

As usually the case government short termism kicked in and the politicians kicked the funding into the long grass on favour of the existing and more advanced wind turbine sector of renewable energy. I believe the situation was that wind energy was available to get up and running quickly for less money.

TheBigBean

lostboysaint wrote:

It is quite odd that in five pages no-one has got to the obvious solution for an island. Tidal power is the solution that should have been investigated significantly more than solar or wind because it is absolutely NOT weather dependent. The energy stored in moving water is much higher than other sustainable sources and it's guaranteed as long as the earth keeps spinning.

Yes the infrastructure costs are generally believed to be higher but so are the returns. If the government can subsidise Hinkley then why not subsidise a tidal power station on the same stretch of coastline? Most of it isn't navigable for much of the time so use the flood and ebb tides to create power.

Ecological impact is the biggest concern - but then that's no different to having fields full of panels killing off crops and wind turbines smashing birds to pulp or changing air flows which affect the environment around them (not to mention the bird strikes.

Bizarre that as an island nation that sees all that energy literally washing ashore and then the same energy leaving again twice a day, every day for the whole life of the planet we haven't done anything with it.

There used to be very generous subsidies for tidal, but it is difficult to deploy and there is considerable technological risk which makes it unappealing to investors.

Also, note there are different types of tidal technology e.g. tidal steam vs tidal lagoon at Swansea.

The Swansea lagoon wanted an absurd subsidy which was turned down. Yes, Hinkley doesn't look great value either, but that doesn't justify spending on Swansea.

TheBigBean

To provide a bit more context around my previous comment and the subsidies that were available. This is level of ROCs that were available to projects that connected a few years ago and paid out for a period of 20 years:

Solar 2/1.6/1.4/1.3/1.2
Onshore wind - 1/0.9
Offshore win - 2
Tidal barrage - 2
Tidal lagoon - 2
Tidal stream - 5 (up to 30 MW)
Waves - 5 (up to 30 MW)

A ROC is currently worth around £52/MWh. Therefore deploying 30MW of tidal stream would have provided a subsidy of around £260/MWh for 20 years.

Total ROC deployment (from register)
Tidal stream - 13.4 MW
Wave Energy - 3.4 MW

For context, the largest offshore single wind turbine is 12 MW.

Source. ROC register (https://www.renewablesandchp.ofgem.gov. ... Category=0)

haydenm

Tangled Metal wrote:

IIRC there was a lot of investment in tidal and wave power at UK universities by UK government at one time. There was an especially interesting development off the North Sea coast. UK was a major player in the technology.

As usually the case government short termism kicked in and the politicians kicked the funding into the long grass on favour of the existing and more advanced wind turbine sector of renewable energy. I believe the situation was that wind energy was available to get up and running quickly for less money.

As a slight aside, I know someone from the old MBUK forum who's father was a big part of the North sea stuff, and he is also involved, he would have been a good person to add to this thread but he's not a member here. There is a Thurso community thing at the moment but I haven't looked into it properly.

As you say, onshore wind is very attractive to the investor (and the landowner side which is where I see it from). Realistically mostly nuclear, ~20% gas (short power up time) and the rest 'renewables' seems fairly rational until renewables reduce our reliance on nuclear. Not sure if it has been mentioned on this thread already but growing algae in hot areas then biorefining is a cool idea, as soon as the oil price ticks over a certain number everything becomes possible

pblakeney

Check out wave power testing in Orkney.
Some positive results recently.

Edit - Tidal power. :oops: Posting from memory is a dodgy activity.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... d-45246445

slowbike

problem with wave power is that there aren't always waves - so it's a bit like the wind - great when it's blowing, rubbish when it's not ... and isn't there an issue if it's blowing too hard?!

At least with tide power it's regular & predictable - although it does vary in strength and direction and is affected by the weather too. Issues I'm aware of is that it's hard to find suitable places to put it where it doesn't cause ecological and/or navigation issues.... plus there's the reliability/maintenance factor of something with moving parts that is submerged for the majority of it's life.

TheBigBean

There are more problems than that:
- it is submerged in salt water (not just water)
- it is offshore which means that the energy needs to find its way onshore and connected to a grid. This is not cheap.
- the tech needs to stay in the same place. Offshore wind has had its challenges with the civil works, but imagine what it is like if you build somewhere with strong tidal flows