Any advice on cornering?

meanredspider

ShimanoBottomBracket wrote:

JGSI wrote:

Out on the road I wouldnt even think of cornering techniques like apexes etc etc.
It all comes down to riding experience and then some and then sometimes you get it all wrong.
My tips would be to ride relaxed and dont exceed your abilities.
If you have opportunity to ride fast on a closed circuit as in the picture then do so. It can build up confidence quickly.
Many moons ago I attended Mick Boddices race school at Darley on a lumbering Firestorm which I managed to haul around on the apexes, get my knee down for the first time and wrench the bloody thing up again.

Not quite the same thing on a Caad10 but still fun when you get it right.

Video wont play. Do you have a direct link?

It's a still PNG that's why it won't play. A quick YouTube search reveals

https://youtu.be/c4wSIelMVuI

Never heard of Darley Moor before - is it a Kart track? Is it really just a triangle?

cycleclinic

Relax and don't think about it if you think about it you will get it wrong. You get better with practice. Grippy tyres help though. The tyres that come with mist bikes are o. K at best.

One thing sub speed before you turn nit during the turn. You,'lol come out quicker.

ProjectObject

meanredspider wrote:

ProjectObject wrote:

Ignore the apex. That's for race tracks. Often the route from the correct apex of the corner to maintain angle and speed will take you onto the opposite side of the road. Not the place you want to be. Pick a safe line so you exit the corner safely and have some and room for manoeuvre for the inevitable pot hole, grid cover and careless car driver. You don't have to worry about any of these things on the race track. This means you can concentrate on the apex. If you get it wrong there's a generous amount of run off ares. No such luxury on the road. If it goes wrong it's going to hurt and probably be expensive too.

I'm not sure you understand the concept of apex or late apex.

I understand the concept of apex fully from being on race tracks on motorbikes. I don't ride a motorbike or my bike on the road looking for the apex of the corner. Safest route around the bend is best and often the fastest.

meanredspider

ProjectObject wrote:

I understand the concept of apex fully from being on race tracks on motorbikes.

That's a bit like me saying I've pressed the keys on a piano so I know how to play one. But hey-ho.

Yuwego

Once again, some really great advice. So I went on a 40 mile trip yesterday and noticed that the more I ride, the more comfortable I get with being on the road. I guess it all just comes with time!

jgsi

meanredspider wrote:

ShimanoBottomBracket wrote:

JGSI wrote:

Out on the road I wouldnt even think of cornering techniques like apexes etc etc.
It all comes down to riding experience and then some and then sometimes you get it all wrong.
My tips would be to ride relaxed and dont exceed your abilities.
If you have opportunity to ride fast on a closed circuit as in the picture then do so. It can build up confidence quickly.
Many moons ago I attended Mick Boddices race school at Darley on a lumbering Firestorm which I managed to haul around on the apexes, get my knee down for the first time and wrench the bloody thing up again.

Not quite the same thing on a Caad10 but still fun when you get it right.

Video wont play. Do you have a direct link?

It's a still PNG that's why it won't play. A quick YouTube search reveals

https://youtu.be/c4wSIelMVuI

Never heard of Darley Moor before - is it a Kart track? Is it really just a triangle?

Just triangle never does it justice.... it's usually hell against a headwind every which way you ride.. and it will rain and a field away it will be sunny. However that day, it was pretty benign, hence a decent result. I once road it in a BC race with nearly 160 other riders - that was not funny, going around the hairpin.

meanredspider

JGSI wrote:

Just triangle never does it justice.... it's usually hell against a headwind every which way you ride.. and it will rain and a field away it will be sunny. However that day, it was pretty benign, hence a decent result. I once road it in a BC race with nearly 160 other riders - that was not funny, going around the hairpin.

I was assuming it was built for some form of motorsport and I can hardly think of a more tedious circuit for motorsport. Cycling it, I'm sure, is a bit different. The hairpin with all those riders must be like those swimming turn in triathlons :shock:

jgsi

Darley has a pretty full programme of motor sport but it is also a good circuit to learn the skills of fast and safe riding or driving. Unlike Oulton Park, it is not exactly technical. Although the TLI organise cycle races at Oulton, the costs imposed by the owners are exhorbitant and I fear we have but one more year on it as those costs cannot now be 'covered'. Darley, in contrast actually welcomes cycling.

DeVlaeminck

It's a motorcycle circuit really, I've only ridden it on a pushbike and to be fair until you see it from the air you aren't really aware it's such a basic triangle. As JGSI says it is very exposed and seems to have its own weather system - it's not the worst circuit for racing.

I believe, though may be mistaken, that soon after it was built as an airfield they replaced it with the one at the top of the hill coming out of Ashbourne towards Derby (now a JCB test area) because Darley was too windy for safe take off and landing.

DeVlaeminck

By the way I agree that cyclists can learn from motorcyclists with stuff like vanishing points and late apexing though I'm not convinced riding a motorcycle is a better prep than riding a bike. The biggest improvements in cornering in my experience come from riding in the mountains - by which I mean the Alps or similar not some Welsh farm track - and from racing.

meanredspider

JGSI wrote:

Darley has a pretty full programme of motor sport but it is also a good circuit to learn the skills of fast and safe riding or driving. Unlike Oulton Park, it is not exactly technical. Although the TLI organise cycle races at Oulton, the costs imposed by the owners are exhorbitant and I fear we have but one more year on it as those costs cannot now be 'covered'. Darley, in contrast actually welcomes cycling.

Oulton is part of Jonathan Palmer's Motorsport Vision empire along with Brands, Cadwell and Snetterton (plus Bedford and Bruntingthorpe). I think he has designs on Silverstone too should it come up for sale. He's renowned for being fastidious and the facilities are usually as good as anywhere. But they are never cheap venues. It's a shame that they've not chucked a few wiggles into Darley - even places like Blyton are far more interesting.

We get the opportunity to ride around Castle Combe but it's a bit too open and featureless to be interesting on a bicycle. I'd love to ride around Knockhill. I've taken a bicycle around Anglesey ("Coastal") before I raced there and that's not a bad bicycle circuit.

imafatman

My advice: don't corner on gravel. It won't end well.

On the upside, when your bike slides out at 20mph the sliding action helps scrub a lot of speed off so when you hit the ground you aren't going as fast. The downside is that you still have to pick gravel out of your skin.

dannbodge

meanredspider wrote:

JGSI wrote:

Darley has a pretty full programme of motor sport but it is also a good circuit to learn the skills of fast and safe riding or driving. Unlike Oulton Park, it is not exactly technical. Although the TLI organise cycle races at Oulton, the costs imposed by the owners are exhorbitant and I fear we have but one more year on it as those costs cannot now be 'covered'. Darley, in contrast actually welcomes cycling.

Oulton is part of Jonathan Palmer's Motorsport Vision empire along with Brands, Cadwell and Snetterton (plus Bedford and Bruntingthorpe). I think he has designs on Silverstone too should it come up for sale. He's renowned for being fastidious and the facilities are usually as good as anywhere. But they are never cheap venues. It's a shame that they've not chucked a few wiggles into Darley - even places like Blyton are far more interesting.

We get the opportunity to ride around Castle Combe but it's a bit too open and featureless to be interesting on a bicycle. I'd love to ride around Knockhill. I've taken a bicycle around Anglesey ("Coastal") before I raced there and that's not a bad bicycle circuit.

Brands is great on a bike, it's hilly enough to be a challenge and twisty enough that it is fun.
Especially coming down from druids at 40mph into a corner.

meanredspider

Dannbodge wrote:

Brands is great on a bike, it's hilly enough to be a challenge and twisty enough that it is fun.
Especially coming down from druids at 40mph into a corner.

I bet.

It's more fun in a damp car race - it's a properly challenging corner with the adverse camber. Duffus Dip at Knockhill would be fab on a bike - fast left followed by a tight right

fudgey

DeVlaeminck wrote:

The biggest improvements in cornering in my experience come from riding in the mountains - by which I mean the Alps or similar not some Welsh farm track - and from racing.

Id second this, last year in southern Spain i did a couple of big descents - 8km type of things.
Lovely fast sweeping bends, hairpins and technical corners.

I was all going well until one corner caught me out. Came in too hot, it was tighter than i thought and off camber. I think it was the off camber part that caught me the most as i hit the apex and then the front wheel washed out...
I learnt that binning it in excess of 30mph hurts a fair bit. I hit the deck hard and was lucky not to get run over by the car i had previously just overtaken.

Smashed ribs and gravel rash, and still had to ride 15 miles with hills back to the apartment. At least it only hurt to pedal and breath...

Got new tyres to take over this year, it did knock my confidence but you soon get back into the swing of things.

pottssteve

imafatman wrote:

My advice: don't corner on gravel. It won't end well.

On the upside, when your bike slides out at 20mph the sliding action helps scrub a lot of speed off so when you hit the ground you aren't going as fast. The downside is that you still have to pick gravel out of your skin.

Agree with this. Pay close attention to the road surface and the presence of loose gravel/grit/water etc. when travelling at speed.


Steve

ZMC888

Anyone saying the best way to learn to corner is riding down a twisty alpine descent is basically saying something similar to the best way to learn to swim is just jumping in the deep end! There are plenty of easier ways!

Unless you can do a rolling endo 5 yards or so you haven't even mastered how to use the front brake properly.

sniper68

Do you have a closed circuit anywhere near you?They're like a mini F1/Moto GP tracks for cycling.Great for learning cornering etc.My lad trains and races on them(he's 9) and his awareness and cornering positioning has come on leaps and bounds in the last few months.
Up here(Yorkshire) we have one in Sheffield,Leeds,Bradford,Wakefield,York and one due in Doncaster.Theyre generally about 1km long.Our local track In Sheffield is cheap as chips at £2 child £3 adult for up to three hours and usually there's only me,my mate and our lads on it.

Yuwego

ibbo68 wrote:

Do you have a closed circuit anywhere near you?

I'm in beautiful Vicenza, italy. I can't seem to find any decent places to practice, though. Italy has some strange rules and, even stranger, not a lot of places to practice without being out on the open road--I guess that's to be expected anywhere, though.

DeVlaeminck

ZMC888 wrote:

Anyone saying the best way to learn to corner is riding down a twisty alpine descent is basically saying something similar to the best way to learn to swim is just jumping in the deep end! There are plenty of easier ways!

Unless you can do a rolling endo 5 yards or so you haven't even mastered how to use the front brake properly.

Not really, Alpine descents don't have to be ridden at 50mph plus on the limit of traction. I'm not suggesting learning to ride a bike by rolling down Alpe D'Huez but if you want to get better at cornering where better than roads where you tackle a succession of corners, usually on decent tarmac and where gravity means you aren't more concerned with keeping the pressure on the pedals than the correct line through the corner and looking for the vanishing point.

It worked for me anyway.

Yuwego

DeVlaeminck wrote:

ZMC888 wrote:

Anyone saying the best way to learn to corner is riding down a twisty alpine descent is basically saying something similar to the best way to learn to swim is just jumping in the deep end! There are plenty of easier ways!

Unless you can do a rolling endo 5 yards or so you haven't even mastered how to use the front brake properly.

I'm not suggesting learning to ride a bike by rolling down Alpe D'Huez but if you want to get better at cornering where better than roads where you tackle a succession of corners, usually on decent tarmac and where gravity means you aren't more concerned with keeping the pressure on the pedals than the correct line through the corner and looking for the vanishing point.

It worked for me anyway.

Sounds great! I'll do some strava browsing and try to find some stuff.

ZMC888

Yuwego wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

ZMC888 wrote:

Anyone saying the best way to learn to corner is riding down a twisty alpine descent is basically saying something similar to the best way to learn to swim is just jumping in the deep end! There are plenty of easier ways!

Unless you can do a rolling endo 5 yards or so you haven't even mastered how to use the front brake properly.

I'm not suggesting learning to ride a bike by rolling down Alpe D'Huez but if you want to get better at cornering where better than roads where you tackle a succession of corners, usually on decent tarmac and where gravity means you aren't more concerned with keeping the pressure on the pedals than the correct line through the corner and looking for the vanishing point.

It worked for me anyway.

Sounds great! I'll do some strava browsing and try to find some stuff.

If you do this ride up the hill first to study the corners. Descending an unknown road is much more risky. Inside pedal up and stick out that knee!

You're in Vicenza, some of those cat 3 and cat 4 Segments look ideal places to practice, how about this one? https://www.strava.com/segments/5479524. If you're on the ground, try to figure out the one with the best road surface, least traffic and twistiest road.

Yuwego

You're in Vicenza, some of those cat 3 and cat 4 Segments look ideal places to practice, how about this one? https://www.strava.com/segments/5479524. If you're on the ground, try to figure out the one with the best road surface, least traffic and twistiest road.

That actually looks pretty decent. Thanks!

man+machine

Indeed, here is a link to some advice on counter steering. Feel free to read through the articles on bike handling and cornering as well.

https://leanincornering.wordpress.com/2 ... -steering/

imposter2.0

man+machine wrote:

Indeed, here is a link to some advice on counter steering. Feel free to read through the articles on bike handling and cornering as well.

https://leanincornering.wordpress.com/2 ... -steering/

countersteering? ffs...

frisbee

Imposter wrote:

man+machine wrote:

Indeed, here is a link to some advice on counter steering. Feel free to read through the articles on bike handling and cornering as well.

https://leanincornering.wordpress.com/2 ... -steering/

countersteering? ffs...

But you can prove it works by resting your hands on the bars and leaning off the bike!

imafatman

Imposter wrote:

man+machine wrote:

Indeed, here is a link to some advice on counter steering. Feel free to read through the articles on bike handling and cornering as well.

https://leanincornering.wordpress.com/2 ... -steering/

countersteering? ffs...

This is the first time I've heard of counter-steering and I thought it was nuts but thinking about my own riding I'm pretty sure that's just how most people with any semblance of riding ability will naturally ride. Cycling without counter-steering would be basically impossible.

I just don't think you need to spend ages trying to practise it cos that's more likely to get you confused and end in tears. Just practising riding around corners at speed in a car park and you should just get it.

davebradswmb

Although there is nothing like Alpine descents for learning how to descend that doesn't mean that there aren't good descents in this country. The road surface tends to be worse in this country, and obviously the descents are significantly shorter so you have less time to get into the swing of it. However if you select your descents well you can find some decent stuff. You want to find a descents that aren't excessively steep, with a reasonable surface and without excessively tight corners. This inevitably means riding on major roads. For instance I did the Fred Whitton last weekend, and there were some fine descents. The descent of Kirkstone to the North is a blast, and although most of the other major descents had some tightish corners near the top, they generally opened out further down. I can think of some nice descents in the Peak District too such as either side of Long Hill, Snake Pass or Longcliffe.

man+machine

imafatman wrote:

Imposter wrote:

man+machine wrote:

Indeed, here is a link to some advice on counter steering. Feel free to read through the articles on bike handling and cornering as well.

https://leanincornering.wordpress.com/2 ... -steering/

countersteering? ffs...

This is the first time I've heard of counter-steering and I thought it was nuts but thinking about my own riding I'm pretty sure that's just how most people with any semblance of riding ability will naturally ride. Cycling without counter-steering would be basically impossible.

I just don't think you need to spend ages trying to practise it cos that's more likely to get you confused and end in tears. Just practising riding around corners at speed in a car park and you should just get it.

Cos? and Confused? Okay. :roll:

First off, if you do not practice or utilize counter steering, you will never be able to implement an avoidance maneuver quickly and concisely. Never. Secondly, you have never heard of counter steering? Alright, I suppose you have not read up on basic physics courses or have never ridden a motorbike. Okay, we'll go on those two assumptions.

Leaning your body will and can never be as efficient as counter steering and leaning your body. It's physics, not opinion. You can argue until you turn blue. Doesn't matter. Physics always win. I'll ask you this, how fast do you normally corner at? Apex speeds. How often do you practice avoidance maneuvers? If you ride at slower to moderate speeds, then counter steering isn't as critical. But as you go faster it becomes more important for the quick way round a turn and being on the proper line.

imposter2.0

man+machine wrote:

imafatman wrote:

Imposter wrote:

man+machine wrote:

Indeed, here is a link to some advice on counter steering. Feel free to read through the articles on bike handling and cornering as well.

https://leanincornering.wordpress.com/2 ... -steering/

countersteering? ffs...

This is the first time I've heard of counter-steering and I thought it was nuts but thinking about my own riding I'm pretty sure that's just how most people with any semblance of riding ability will naturally ride. Cycling without counter-steering would be basically impossible.

I just don't think you need to spend ages trying to practise it cos that's more likely to get you confused and end in tears. Just practising riding around corners at speed in a car park and you should just get it.

Cos? and Confused? Okay. :roll:

First off, if you do not practice or utilize counter steering, you will never be able to implement an avoidance maneuver quickly and concisely. Never. Secondly, you have never heard of counter steering? Alright, I suppose you have not read up on basic physics courses or have never ridden a motorbike. Okay, we'll go on those two assumptions.

Leaning your body will and can never be as efficient as counter steering and leaning your body. It's physics, not opinion. You can argue until you turn blue. Doesn't matter. Physics always win. I'll ask you this, how fast do you normally corner at? Apex speeds. How often do you practice avoidance maneuvers? If you ride at slower to moderate speeds, then counter steering isn't as critical. But as you go faster it becomes more important for the quick way round a turn and being on the proper line.

I have heard of counter-steering and I know how it works. But what you are suggesting above is hilariously dogmatic and unneccesarily complex, to the point where it's just not relevant. We are on Bikeradar here, not Visordown...