To race or to wait?
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How are you doing with the after hockey pain? I remember we had a very short little discussion regarding Aspirin and Paracetamol a while back.PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 20230
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ECA stack. No?M.R.M. wrote:How are you doing with the after hockey pain? I remember we had a very short little discussion regarding Aspirin and Paracetamol a while back.0 -
It's OK at the moment, but I'm off to a veterans tournament in Bordeaux on Thursday - so I'll be taking a stash of Ibuprofen. I'd be more concerned by the amount of wine I'll drink rather than the Ibus.M.R.M. wrote:How are you doing with the after hockey pain? I remember we had a very short little discussion regarding Aspirin and Paracetamol a while back.Twitter: @RichN950 -
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RichN95 wrote:
No, I don't play in those - there's better keepers available. I heard about it though. A bit of a massacre for Wales. Everyone I know that plays veterans hockey for Wales complains about it all the time.Pross wrote:
My cousin scored for Wales against England, shame about the 6 they let in!
Sorry No tA, gone off topic.0 -
This comes up a lot but it always seems to be about Movistar. Funny that, in my book if Quintana wins this, he will have cheated both of his Giro wins.0
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RichN95 wrote:Sportsmen in most sports have become homogenised in their public personalities not by their own common consensus but by their common desire not to be the cause of the outrage du jour.
Not sure if the feedback from fans is instant enough to be a factor.
Though I have seen many times a football team putting a ball out of play due to the rising noise of the crowd when everyone on the pitch knows there's nothing wrong with the 'injured' player.“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
The best known 'unwritten rule' is that the Yellow Jersey isn't attacked on the last day of the tour.
Anyone think this rule wouldn't be abandoned if Froome is 1 second down on the final day?“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
TailWindHome wrote:The best known 'unwritten rule' is that the Yellow Jersey isn't attacked on the last day of the tour.
Anyone think this rule wouldn't be abandoned if Froome is 1 second down on the final day?
I think that's less an unwritten rule and more feature of the current finish. And let's face it, who the hell would want to piss off the sprinters that have just dragged themselves over the mountains to be there...Braver man than me!Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
^^Yes if there was another TT akin to when LeMond won.0
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Shadowrider wrote:This comes up a lot but it always seems to be about Movistar. Funny that, in my book if Quintana wins this, he will have cheated both of his Giro wins.
Eh? Where has Quintana cheated in this Giro?
Are you talking about not stopping for Dumoulin, because Movistar weren't the ones that pushed on.
In any case on the final climb with a GC rider already a minute plus up the road and with Movistar having spent the stage setting up the situation putting men up the road to attack and take back time it's not realistic to expect them to stop for two minutes because Dumoulin has chosen to take a toilet break.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
DeVlaeminck wrote:Shadowrider wrote:This comes up a lot but it always seems to be about Movistar. Funny that, in my book if Quintana wins this, he will have cheated both of his Giro wins.
Eh? Where has Quintana cheated in this Giro?
Are you talking about not stopping for Dumoulin, because Movistar weren't the ones that pushed on.
In any case on the final climb with a GC rider already a minute plus up the road and with Movistar having spent the stage setting up the situation putting men up the road to attack and take back time it's not realistic to expect them to stop for two minutes because Dumoulin has chosen to take a toilet break.
As I've said somewhere else I think it all stems back to this over-romanticised notion of fair play among riders. I think it's fair to say not attacking the race leader when he's got an issue is one thing but the idea of actually slowing down and waiting is another. There's been examples in the past of team mates attacking each other or riders supporters physically attacking a rival so to call someone a cheat for carrying on riding is ludicrous.
In the spirit of this thread, riders wait to avoid upsetting people who can make things hard later in the race or even in future races. It's weighing up short term gain against long term risk.0 -
Whether we think it's normally transactional or not though in this case there was a GC rider a minute up the road already and whilst he may have not been an immediate threat to Dumoulin he was a threat to the others in that group - those who think they should have waited are arguing they should have risked their own positions on GC so Dumoulin didn't risk his.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0
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DeVlaeminck wrote:Whether we think it's normally transactional or not though in this case there was a GC rider a minute up the road already and whilst he may have not been an immediate threat to Dumoulin he was a threat to the others in that group - those who think they should have waited are arguing they should have risked their own positions on GC so Dumoulin didn't risk his.
Indeed.
There is no way of expressing the unwritten rules that does justice in all possible situations - especially in a stage race with so many different competitions playing out at once. Judgement has to fill the gap. And a team's or rider's judgement will form the basis of their character appraisal in the peloton - alongside many other factors. This is the beauty of it, it's what makes cycling special.
Movistar, for instance, have a reputation (at least amongst fans, the peloton may have different opinions) for erring on the side of self-interest. This could come back to haunt them if they themselves were to suffer a misfortune - though Dumoulin did wait for Quintana when he had a mech (which in itself could be seen as underlining his own character credentials and putting pressure on Movistar to conform to the norms of the peloton).
It's also worth noting that there's so much going on in the peloton that we don't see or hear of most of the time. How the break is decided, how riders move up or down the pack, how they speak to each other, how the tempo for the day is decided, etc. That's all grist to the mill. This is probably why we end up with patrons as well - they pretty much have the casting vote if there is a deadlock - and it's a brave team/rider that goes against the patron.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
DeVlaeminck wrote:Whether we think it's normally transactional or not though in this case there was a GC rider a minute up the road already and whilst he may have not been an immediate threat to Dumoulin he was a threat to the others in that group - those who think they should have waited are arguing they should have risked their own positions on GC so Dumoulin didn't risk his.
Yep but some people have learned about bike racing from reading Rapha coffee table books of heroic but gentlemanly struggles or, worse still, listening to Carlton so have an unrealistic expectation.0 -
It's all good. It's good you're mindful of it, while managing it sensibly. Was just a quick check on how you are doing, since hockey came up.RichN95 wrote:
It's OK at the moment, but I'm off to a veterans tournament in Bordeaux on Thursday - so I'll be taking a stash of Ibuprofen. I'd be more concerned by the amount of wine I'll drink rather than the Ibus.M.R.M. wrote:How are you doing with the after hockey pain? I remember we had a very short little discussion regarding Aspirin and Paracetamol a while back.
PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 20230 -
Quintana once again classless. You're all going on about this romanticized version of cycling, as if you don't believe it. How many pages dedicated to people wearing black socks?
When Quintana went down on the descent, Tom D slowed the group to allow him easy passage back.0 -
Take the decision out of the riders hands; no other sport would expect the participants to decide on crucial decisions. It's 2017, time to write actual rules, and the Race Director to implement when needed. Or is that too radical?All Road/ Gravel: tbcWinter: tbcMTB: tbcRoad: tbc"Look at the time...." "he's fallen like an old lady on a cruise ship..."0
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Given how inconsistently the actual written rules are applied, I suggest that is a big ask.AndyRAC wrote:Take the decision out of the riders hands; no other sport would expect the participants to decide on crucial decisions. It's 2017, time to write actual rules, and the Race Director to implement when needed. Or is that too radical?0 -
AndyRAC wrote:Take the decision out of the riders hands; no other sport would expect the participants to decide on crucial decisions. It's 2017, time to write actual rules, and the Race Director to implement when needed. Or is that too radical?
Too boring, you mean.
And footballers are expected to kick the ball out of play when players are injured, but that's also open to interpretation.
So cycling isn't the only sport.0 -
AndyRAC wrote:Take the decision out of the riders hands; no other sport would expect the participants to decide on crucial decisions. It's 2017, time to write actual rules, and the Race Director to implement when needed. Or is that too radical?
There are actual rules which say when riders must stop, when they must not pass a commissaires car, how time gaps are to be reset etc. Rail crossings or dangerous road conditions such as ice or snow would be a couple of examples.
Beyond that think about it, how would you pen a rule to cover riders disadvantaged by a puncture, crash or a case like Dumoulin's.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:AndyRAC wrote:Take the decision out of the riders hands; no other sport would expect the participants to decide on crucial decisions. It's 2017, time to write actual rules, and the Race Director to implement when needed. Or is that too radical?
Too boring, you mean.
And footballers are expected to kick the ball out of play when players are injured, but that's also open to interpretation.
So cycling isn't the only sport.
Actually it's mainly down to the ref now to deal with that.0 -
Shame.
There's too much emphasis on things being "fair" within each individual circumstance, rather than being more broadly fair, and more interesting.
On the broadest scale, it is fair that there is no rule. It's just up to the situation and circumstance. Over all the races, it will all eventually even out - for some more than others. That's life, and that's luck.
All rules create are opportunities for regulatory arbitration - a rule means there is a barrier people can push up against.
It's best to keep luck in sport - it makes it more entertaining.0 -
I think the team bosses of the affected teams would meet on the night before if any individual was 1sec down on the final day and agree it explicitly in advance to avoid any doubt. Might also rely on the commissaires getting involved in the event of an unanticipated time gap in the peleton at the crucial time.TailWindHome wrote:The best known 'unwritten rule' is that the Yellow Jersey isn't attacked on the last day of the tour.
Anyone think this rule wouldn't be abandoned if Froome is 1 second down on the final day?2015 Canyon Nerve AL 6.0 (son #1's)
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larkim wrote:
I think the team bosses of the affected teams would meet on the night before if any individual was 1sec down on the final day and agree it explicitly in advance to avoid any doubt. Might also rely on the commissaires getting involved in the event of an unanticipated time gap in the peloton at the crucial time.TailWindHome wrote:The best known 'unwritten rule' is that the Yellow Jersey isn't attacked on the last day of the tour.
Anyone think this rule wouldn't be abandoned if Froome is 1 second down on the final day?
Pretty sure that if time gaps were one second we'd see GC riders fighting for any bonus seconds. In fact hasn't there been at least one example of a GC rider attacking on the last day certainly post ww2 - I have it in my head the race leader neutralised it himself - or did I imagine that?[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
Zoetemelk attacked Hinault on the last stage one year. They finished about two minutes ahead of everyone else. Hinault won the stage.DeVlaeminck wrote:Pretty sure that if time gaps were one second we'd see GC riders fighting for any bonus seconds. In fact hasn't there been at least one example of a GC rider attacking on the last day certainly post ww2 - I have it in my head the race leader neutralised it himself - or did I imagine that?Twitter: @RichN950 -
Shadowrider wrote:Quintana once again classless. You're all going on about this romanticized version of cycling, as if you don't believe it. How many pages dedicated to people wearing black socks?
When Quintana went down on the descent, Tom D slowed the group to allow him easy passage back.
I think this complicated the issue further; the fact that NQ didn't reciprocate TD's act of sportsmanship. Personally, I don't think TD should've waited for NQ when he fell off. Rider error. Just like when Schleck shipped his chain at the Tour; rider error. Learn how to change gear properly. And if that doesn't work, learn how to put a chain back on. Equallly, the peleton shouldn't be waiting for riders who puncture/change bikes etc. That's all part of racing.........lady luck and all that. As an an early post pointed out, if there is an incident of malice or there's a dangerour situation, then the race should be neutralised. Although NQ was happy to ignore instructions to neutralise the Stelvio descent his previous Giro win, so he's certainly got form when it comes to adopting a 'no gifts' approach.0 -
RichN95 wrote:
Zoetemelk attacked Hinault on the last stage one year. They finished about two minutes ahead of everyone else. Hinault won the stage.DeVlaeminck wrote:Pretty sure that if time gaps were one second we'd see GC riders fighting for any bonus seconds. In fact hasn't there been at least one example of a GC rider attacking on the last day certainly post ww2 - I have it in my head the race leader neutralised it himself - or did I imagine that?
Thanks Rich I thought something like that had happened just couldn't remember when and who.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0
