20mph limit

Arbu

What are people's views on the 20mph speed limits now in force in much of our urban areas? Cyclists are not bound by the limit and I often go faster than 20mph. There are two reasons I don't like the lower limit:

1. It seems to me that pedestrians are stepping out into the road without looking much more than they used to, and it's really annoying. They listen, but they don't look, because they feel that the risk is less than before because even if they haven't heard a car, if there is one it will be able to stop. And they don't think that there might be a cyclist approaching (possibly at 25-30mph).

2. I now get stuck behind cars, and there isn't always room to overtake.

I'd be happier if the speed limit went back to 30mph.

I'm sure I'm in a minority on this but still I'd be interested to know what other people's views are.

cooldad

Oh dear, a bicyclist stuck behind a car. How ironic.

cougie

You might want to recalibrate that speedometer. You're not doing 30 on the flat.

Twenty is plenty.

greg66_tri_v2.0

cougie wrote:

You might want to recalibrate that speedometer. You're not doing 30 on the flat.

Twenty is plenty.

Twelve's swell.

Eleven's heaven.

Nine's fine.

Eight's great.

Seven's heaven.

Fifty's nifty.

A ton's fun.

Rhyming is not a sound basis to set speed limits.

cougie

Pretty sure that's not the reason for it being 20.

Love that a cyclist is complaining about people getting in his way and he may hit them as he's going so fast.

It's just the same as motorists complaining about us cyclists getting in the way.

pblakeney

cougie wrote:

Pretty sure that's not the reason for it being 20.

Love that a cyclist is complaining about people getting in his way and he may hit them as he's going so fast.

It's just the same as motorists complaining about us cyclists getting in the way.

^^^^^^^^^
The reason for everyone's complaints.
Nothing to do with tax, licenses, insurance, red lights...blah blah blah... It is impatience. End of.

meanredspider

I notice that cars overtake me even if I'm doing 20 - it's almost as if they feel they should be going faster than a bike - then slow up once they're past.

That said, the road I'm currently staying on is 20 and I doubt 1/5th of the cars are doing that speed.

pastryboy

In my experience a 20mph limit means 26/27 in reality and that includes buses, police cars and anything else. So my speed is generally lower and I get overtaken.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Fit deadly weapons to the left side of your bike axles and do punishment passes past the slow cars.;)

jgsi

Hulking great SUVs which are so well built to withstand the stresses of urban life... many are driven at 5mph over bleedin' speed bumps by their incompetent drivers..... but if 20 is going to be de facto limit, then removing these non friendly cycling obstructions asap. Avoiding the pot hole traps that form on the outsides of them, the glass like ramps on the sides and trying to ease the clattering that you get when you are force to broadside them, cause me more issues than being held up or non attentive pedestrians.

inbike

I had a speed trap set up in a 20.

50% of all vehicles were going over 25mph. Fastest clocked speed was a motorbike going over 60.

I find that I rarely get held up by cars unless there are: jams, busses, speed bumps, or stupid narrow roads like Oxford street. But the same is equally true in 20 and 30 zones.

Overtaking seems to depend more on road design than speed limit. I get passed a lot in the 20mph section of Camberwell new road, even though I can easily zip along at >25mph there.

sloppyschleckonds

PBlakeney wrote:

It is impatience. End of.

Or twattishness.

If you don't want to stay within the safe speed limits, don't use the roads.

airborne_warrior

Cars get in my way when I'm time trialing in the fast lane on the motorway.

meanredspider

Airborne Warrior wrote:

Cars get in my way when I'm time trialing in the fast lane on the motorway.

The M25 IS infamous for stationary traffic

fat daddy

I hated the 20mph limit in bristol when I drove everywhere, but now as a cyclist I love it.

Sure you get held up more by the traffic when you are coming down the Gloucester Road.

But, it's become a damn site safer all the other times. Cars now approach you 19mph slower, they hold back more as it's not worth over taking, the traffic is. Calmer and easier to merge with on a bike as you can easily match the speed of traffic

It's just better

cookeeemonster

Where there's enforcement (ha!) they work...otherwise after the initial 2/3 weeks after they're introduced people treat them as 30 limits again, including all 'professional' drivers and the police

secretsam

Arbu wrote:

I now get stuck behind cars, and there isn't always room to overtake.

I'd be happier if the speed limit went back to 30mph

F.F.S.
I recall that the acuity of injuries sustained in accidents falls exponentially with speed, but hey, compared to your journey being 20sec slower...

greg66_tri_v2.0

CookeeeMonster wrote:

Where there's enforcement (ha!) they work...otherwise after the initial 2/3 weeks after they're introduced people treat them as 30 limits again, including all 'professional' drivers and the police

Thing is though that at least in London, the majority of car traffic in 30s drives between 24 an 27 anyway*. Twenty years ago 30 meant 35-40; 40 meant anywhere up to 60. Not any more.

One of my daughters tells me that there's a type of minivan driver - maybe uber - who have to have their phone or some other device set to vibrate as soon as they go at or over the limit. So they act as de facto lack of pace setters; besides which minivans probably outnumber private care in London anyway.

None of this matters to motorcyclists and moped riders who ride at whatever speed they want using traffic and cyclists as a dynamic slalom course. Motorcyclists tend IME to ride better and give me more room, but as I have said before society as a whole would be greatly improved by directing all moped riders to a single road that leads straight off Beachy Head.

* source: me, driving in London, with a numeric readout of my speed dead centre of the dash.

Arbu

It's true, getting stuck behind cars isn't so much of an issue cos I'm probably not going much above 20 and they frequently aren't adhering to the limit.

But pedestrians are a real problem. I can almost guarantee that I will have to use my bell to warn one who has decided to cross without looking when cycling the half mile or so of 20mph limits from where I live to busier roads. Sure, I've got to get out of the way or break if necessary to avoid them. But it's annoying to have to do so, and one day I might not be able to.

thistle_

meanredspider wrote:

I notice that cars overtake me even if I'm doing 20 - it's almost as if they feel they should be going faster than a bike - then slow up once they're past.

This is my experience too. However the same thing sometimes happens when I'm cycling at 30mph and the limit it 30mph.

fenix

Arbu wrote:

But pedestrians are a real problem. I can almost guarantee that I will have to use my bell to warn one who has decided to cross without looking when cycling the half mile or so of 20mph limits from where I live to busier roads. Sure, I've got to get out of the way or break if necessary to avoid them. But it's annoying to have to do so, and one day I might not be able to.

It's half a mile..... If you can't look out for more vulnerable users - don't use the roads.

kingstongraham

Do you think pedestrians are walking into the road without looking because while they wouldn't want to be hit by something going at 30mph, they wouldn't mind being hit by something going at 20 mph?

slowbike

Fenix wrote:

Arbu wrote:

But pedestrians are a real problem. I can almost guarantee that I will have to use my bell to warn one who has decided to cross without looking when cycling the half mile or so of 20mph limits from where I live to busier roads. Sure, I've got to get out of the way or break if necessary to avoid them. But it's annoying to have to do so, and one day I might not be able to.

It's half a mile..... If you can't look out for more vulnerable users - don't use the roads.

Quite ...

If the limit is 20mph - then although cyclists are not legally obliged to ride to it, isn't it sensible to ride to the conditions? if you're riding along >20mph then you need to be looking far enough ahead and anticipating these sorts of things so you CAN stop or avoid them. If you feel you can't avoid them in time then you should moderate your speed!

Having to moderate speed is one of the reasons I don't (often) use a cyclepath on my route in/home - yes, sure I can blat them >20mph (I've got "KOM" on the return home segment) - but as soon as you see an obstruction you have to moderate your pace.
Anyway - 1/2 mile at 20mph is 1 1/2 minutes, 22mph is 1 min 20 sec, 18mph is 1 min 40 seconds and 15mph is 2 minutes - so we're talking less than a minute difference.

imafatman

20mph speed limit is good, it means cars stay behind me when I get away at the lights.

I do have problems with pedestrians so I stay concentrated on the road ahead, give them a little whistle if they are far enough away to spot me, and a loud WATCH OUT if they are about to get blatted.

Came close to hitting a child when a dosey fuckwit of a parent let it wander into the cycle superhighway on the embankment. Fortunately I'm on discs and stop fast enough so there wasn't any danger but fuck sake look after your children.

veronese68

thistle (MBNW) wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

I notice that cars overtake me even if I'm doing 20 - it's almost as if they feel they should be going faster than a bike - then slow up once they're past.

This is my experience too. However the same thing sometimes happens when I'm cycling at 30mph and the limit it 30mph.

What's worse is when I'm doing the same speed as the traffic half a car length back from the car in front and the twunt behind feels the need to overtake in spite of the fact there is nowhere to go. I have slapped a car on the roof to let them know I'm still there before, another time was a woman in a convertible Audi with the roof down that was too busy sending a text to pay me any heed. Managed to have a bit of a conversation with her as the roof was down. She believed she had every right to use her phone and that I should have left her room to go ahead of me. Ignorant tart really needed her driving license taking away and her phone inserted where the sun doesn't shine (in spite of what she may believe).

pblakeney

Veronese68 wrote:

thistle (MBNW) wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

I notice that cars overtake me even if I'm doing 20 - it's almost as if they feel they should be going faster than a bike - then slow up once they're past.

This is my experience too. However the same thing sometimes happens when I'm cycling at 30mph and the limit it 30mph.

What's worse is when I'm doing the same speed as the traffic half a car length back from the car in front and the twunt behind feels the need to overtake in spite of the fact there is nowhere to go. I have slapped a car on the roof to let them know I'm still there before, another time was a woman in a convertible Audi with the roof down that was too busy sending a text to pay me any heed. Managed to have a bit of a conversation with her as the roof was down. She believed she had every right to use her phone and that I should have left her room to go ahead of me. Ignorant tart really needed her driving license taking away and her phone inserted where the sun doesn't shine (in spite of what she may believe).

I've had exactly the same experience, but a Q5 though. Don't know the state of her door, but my fist was well bruised after "warning" her of my presence. Women in Audis? Coincidence? Still think Quashquis and Jukes are worse.

redhanded

I've done speed measurements of traffic down my street in London using specialist software, HD camera and measured distances marked on the road. Despite 20mph being on roadside signs, marked on the road and two signs that flash warnings if the speed is too high, over 80% of drivers exceeded 20mph.

And of the ones that didn't, most of the times there was a car coming the other direction that meant they slowed down as the street is too narrow to pass safely.

I think the limits are a good thing but they will be ignored without enforcement, police enforcement only works when they are there and speed cameras are only put in when the volume of traffic justifies them and there have been deaths/injuries.

In my case, the evidence of speed limits being ignored adds to the case to shut the street to through motor traffic (but not bikes) so rat-runners stick to main roads rather than short cuts through residential streets.

Mr _Tibbs

Arbu wrote:

What are people's views on the 20mph speed limits now in force in much of our urban areas? Cyclists are not bound by the limit and I often go faster than 20mph. There are two reasons I don't like the lower limit:

1. It seems to me that pedestrians are stepping out into the road without looking much more than they used to, and it's really annoying. They listen, but they don't look, because they feel that the risk is less than before because even if they haven't heard a car, if there is one it will be able to stop. And they don't think that there might be a cyclist approaching (possibly at 25-30mph).

2. I now get stuck behind cars, and there isn't always room to overtake.

I'd be happier if the speed limit went back to 30mph.

I'm sure I'm in a minority on this but still I'd be interested to know what other people's views are.

I think that there is a point that you are missing. Many roads are now designed to encourage more random, or less restricted use, by all road users. Whether these are pedestrian, cyclists, cars whatever. The concept is to remove the sense of "priority" that some road users have...sort of "this is my road" and encourage everyone to take extra care to avoid each other.

Don't believe me, take a trip into London and ride down exhibition row. No pavement, no kerb, no white lines, deliberately vague road markings...everyone one looks out for one another

cougie

I've not been there since they did that. It looks interesting.

inbike

Unfortunately cars still race down it, and the new road surface feels slippery in the wet when cycling.

So I'm not sure it's the best implementation of the concept.

thistle_

Mr _Tibbs wrote:

I think that there is a point that you are missing. Many roads are now designed to encourage more random, or less restricted use, by all road users. Whether these are pedestrian, cyclists, cars whatever. The concept is to remove the sense of "priority" that some road users have...sort of "this is my road" and encourage everyone to take extra care to avoid each other.

Don't believe me, take a trip into London and ride down exhibition row. No pavement, no kerb, no white lines, deliberately vague road markings...everyone one looks out for one another

We've got something similar like that now here, however pedestrians walked in the road anyway beforehand because the footways were narrow.
When the new shared space first opened it was OK because it was only used by cars and I think they were totally confused by it all so slowed down. There are also bollards creating chicanes along the road to slow traffic down.

Now they've sent all the buses back down it and most of the buses go slowly, but as the kerb has been removed some drive/swing over what used to be the footway (even when pedestrians are there) in order to make a left turn at the end of the road. Taxi drivers still use it like a racetrack and expect pedestrians to jump out of their way, even in the middle of the day when it's busy with shoppers.

One good thing is that it's a 1 way street but cyclists are now allowed to ride contraflow. Unfortunately there are no signs to tell vehicles/pedestrians this.
It's not perfect, but it's a lot better than it was.

Edit: The speed limit is still 30 mph, which is surprising as they've introduced 20 mph speed limits everywhere else including on the main roads in/out.