Intervals on Commute

dinyull
dinyull Posts: 2,979
edited May 2017 in Training, fitness and health
Looking to get the best from my commuter miles. Because we have our first child on the way in Oct I'm in a race for time to get the house ready so my time on the bike is pretty limited at the minute. And I imagine that will continue after Oct!

This means I've stopped using Trainerroad as I'm working most nights. So, thinking of introducing some intervals into my commute - 8 miles each way, 5 days a week.

Can do it in approx 25mins, but thinking if I introduce intervals then it'll probably take 30 mins.

Not racing or anything but I still get out for a 90min blast at the weekends, so what length intervals would be a help on the commute?

Plan in my head is: Mon - recovery, Tue - intervals, Wed - recovery, Thurs - intervals, Fri - recovery, Sun - 90 min ride.

Cheers
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Comments

  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Kind of depends on what your objectives are and what you are hoping to achieve by doing intervals.
  • dinyull
    dinyull Posts: 2,979
    Only real objective at the minute is to get faster on the weekend 90min ride.

    But long term, trying to keep fitness up for when I can get back out for 3-4 hours at the weekend. I'm realistic that 30min commutes and 90min weekend rides aren't going to help endurance though.

    I got a lot from using Trainerroad, was noticeably fresher on the back end of longer rides and faster too. Just trying to use all the time on the bike I have as best I can.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,254
    Doesn't the commute govern the intervals a bit if you are only adding 5 minutes each way? I have about the same distance commute, but there is only really one section on the way back where I can be pretty sure of getting 10 minutes solid without having to sit up.
  • dinyull
    dinyull Posts: 2,979
    Well, that is one of my concerns. I'm not commuting into a big city though, so traffic and lights aren't a massive concern, but I'd probably be limited to 5 min intervals.

    Just not sure if intervals that short are going to be of any help?
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Dinyull wrote:
    Only real objective at the minute is to get faster on the weekend 90min ride.

    So you're hoping to complete the current ride in less than 90mins - or ride further in the available 90mins? Do you do the same route every time? I'm not clear on what the purpose of the 90min Sunday ride is.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,254
    VO2 max intervals are supposed to be up to about 5 minutes each.
  • dinyull
    dinyull Posts: 2,979
    Imposter wrote:
    Dinyull wrote:
    Only real objective at the minute is to get faster on the weekend 90min ride.

    So you're hoping to complete the current ride in less than 90mins - or ride further in the available 90mins? Do you do the same route every time? I'm not clear on what the purpose of the 90min Sunday ride is.

    Haha, cheers. That's the first "Imposter" response I've ever had on here, finally feel like part of the furniture.
  • dinyull
    dinyull Posts: 2,979
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    VO2 max intervals are supposed to be up to about 5 minutes each.

    Cool, cheers.

    Will give that a go and maybe sprinkle in some days with shorter, balls out efforts.

    Not expecting miracles, but want to at least feel like I'm trying to do something.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Dinyull wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    Dinyull wrote:
    Only real objective at the minute is to get faster on the weekend 90min ride.

    So you're hoping to complete the current ride in less than 90mins - or ride further in the available 90mins? Do you do the same route every time? I'm not clear on what the purpose of the 90min Sunday ride is.

    Haha, cheers. That's the first "Imposter" response I've ever had on here, finally feel like part of the furniture.

    It was actually a serious question, given that you said you wanted to get faster within an apparently fixed time frame. The questions still stand. The more context you can provide, the better your answers are likely to be.
  • dinyull
    dinyull Posts: 2,979
    I've got a 90min slot pencilled in most Sundays,. but I will ride the same 25 mile route (in less than 90 mins) each week as location wise I'm a bit snookered - hemmed in by coast, river and city.

    The purpose of the ride is, to get out and ride my bike.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,702
    Dinyull wrote:
    Looking to get the best from my commuter miles. Because we have our first child on the way in Oct I'm in a race for time to get the house ready so my time on the bike is pretty limited at the minute. And I imagine that will continue after Oct!

    This means I've stopped using Trainerroad as I'm working most nights. So, thinking of introducing some intervals into my commute - 8 miles each way, 5 days a week.

    Can do it in approx 25mins, but thinking if I introduce intervals then it'll probably take 30 mins.

    Not racing or anything but I still get out for a 90min blast at the weekends, so what length intervals would be a help on the commute?

    Plan in my head is: Mon - recovery, Tue - intervals, Wed - recovery, Thurs - intervals, Fri - recovery, Sun - 90 min ride.

    Cheers

    What's the commute? If it has natural intervals (sprint between lights), just get on with that. The main challenge (I find anyway), is really using it to go as deep as you need to for proper interval training. If you can get that right, and you're OK with hurting yourself every morning and evening, it's great. If there are no natural rests, it'll be mentally tougher to do.

    I tend to find that real life forces the odd recovery day anyway, so rather than build them into your plan, just smash it untill life tells you to take a day off. Sometimes that'll be 2 weeks solid - some weeks you'll only be in twice on the bike.
    _
  • craigus89
    craigus89 Posts: 887
    Surely on a 25 minute commute intervals are a bit pointless? I would have thought you'd be better just riding it as hard as you can. With the amount of riding you are doing (not much of a training load and no specific goal) I would have thought the benefit of anything structured in those small time frames would be negligible.
  • dinyull
    dinyull Posts: 2,979
    Suppose that's what I'm trying to gauge too.

    I'm happy to ride it as hard as I can (and have been doing), but believed the general thinking was interval training is better at making improvements over riding as hard as you can.

    And I'm sure there was a time crunched plan on TR with 30min sessions? Could be wrong though.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,702
    Craigus89 wrote:
    Surely on a 25 minute commute intervals are a bit pointless? I would have thought you'd be better just riding it as hard as you can. With the amount of riding you are doing (not much of a training load and no specific goal) I would have thought the benefit of anything structured in those small time frames would be negligible.
    My commute is 25-30 mins.

    5 min warm up. Can do a lot of intervals in 20 minutes. Especially if you genuinely smash it.
    _
  • VamP
    VamP Posts: 674
    The only interval set that you can reasonably squeeze into 30 minutes is 1x10, and then only by keeping your recovery to 1 min. Which would do something, but not sure it would be optimal. Although, as per the above, if you have no objective beyond riding your bike, just ride the bike.

    To get a good quality session in, extend the commute. Your're already dressed and on your bike, so it's cheap time.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,702
    VamP wrote:
    The only interval set that you can reasonably squeeze into 30 minutes is 1x10, and then only by keeping your recovery to 1 min. Which would do something, but not sure it would be optimal. Although, as per the above, if you have no objective beyond riding your bike, just ride the bike.

    To get a good quality session in, extend the commute. Your're already dressed and on your bike, so it's cheap time.

    Eh?

    Can do a lot of 40-20s if you want in 25 minutes.
    _
  • dinyull
    dinyull Posts: 2,979
    VamP wrote:
    The only interval set that you can reasonably squeeze into 30 minutes is 1x10, and then only by keeping your recovery to 1 min. Which would do something, but not sure it would be optimal. Although, as per the above, if you have no objective beyond riding your bike, just ride the bike.

    To get a good quality session in, extend the commute. Your're already dressed and on your bike, so it's cheap time.

    See, I'm no training expert but I've been doing interval training for a while now and TR's intervals are anything from 20 seconds to half an hour.

    I'm renovating half the house and have a pregnant wife. It might be cheap time to you, but an extra 30 mins on the bike means the house takes longer to finish and/or less time spent with my wife.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,702
    Smash it till you can't see for around a minute maybe 90 secs, chill until you can see again and repeat.
    _
  • craigus89
    craigus89 Posts: 887
    Sounds fun. Enjoy your intervals.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Presumably when you get to work you are expected to do something productive? In which case, smashing yourself to pieces on the way in might not be the best option. I don't commute any more, but when I did, I would ride in normally, then either extend the route or time-trial the commute home.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,702
    Imposter wrote:
    Presumably when you get to work you are expected to do something productive? In which case, smashing yourself to pieces on the way in might not be the best option. I don't commute any more, but when I did, I would ride in normally, then either extend the route or time-trial the commute home.

    Works for me :P

    You get used to smashing yourself to bits every time. Hard to do that much damage in 25 mins, so might as well go as hard as.

    Has helped me no end - can easily keep up with decent club runs at 70-100km on the weekend just on that.
    _
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 26,254
    Imposter wrote:
    Presumably when you get to work you are expected to do something productive? In which case, smashing yourself to pieces on the way in might not be the best option. I don't commute any more, but when I did, I would ride in normally, then either extend the route or time-trial the commute home.

    But you have different strava sections on the way in and the way home. Surely I need to sometimes put in efforts on the way in.
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,005
    Craigus89 wrote:
    Surely on a 25 minute commute intervals are a bit pointless? I would have thought you'd be better just riding it as hard as you can. With the amount of riding you are doing (not much of a training load and no specific goal) I would have thought the benefit of anything structured in those small time frames would be negligible.

    But it's impossible to ride full effort for 25min. Even Tony Martin paces himself.

    There is plenty of sports science evidence that just a few high intensity (flat out) intervals are helpful in building endurance - eg 6 lots of 30sec flat out with 4 min recoveries, 3 times a week, gives measurable improvement in endurance, comparable with 2h rides at 65%.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1995688/

    On your commute you aren't going to stick to a rigid plan. I look at short (otherwise pointless) Strava segments within my commute and try to go full gas on 2-3 each trip. If the traffic's wrong I try different ones.
  • craigus89
    craigus89 Posts: 887
    Mad_Malx wrote:
    Craigus89 wrote:
    Surely on a 25 minute commute intervals are a bit pointless? I would have thought you'd be better just riding it as hard as you can. With the amount of riding you are doing (not much of a training load and no specific goal) I would have thought the benefit of anything structured in those small time frames would be negligible.

    But it's impossible to ride full effort for 25min.

    Hence why I said as hard as you can. There will be inevitable slowing and speeding up which is basically what intervals do anyway. I really don't see the point, especially as the OP has no real objective.
  • dinyull
    dinyull Posts: 2,979
    Mad_Malx wrote:
    Craigus89 wrote:
    Surely on a 25 minute commute intervals are a bit pointless? I would have thought you'd be better just riding it as hard as you can. With the amount of riding you are doing (not much of a training load and no specific goal) I would have thought the benefit of anything structured in those small time frames would be negligible.

    On your commute you aren't going to stick to a rigid plan. I look at short (otherwise pointless) Strava segments within my commute and try to go full gas on 2-3 each trip. If the traffic's wrong I try different ones.

    Think that might be my best plan of action - pick 4 or 5 segments e/w where traffic/lights don't stop play.
  • dinyull
    dinyull Posts: 2,979
    Craigus89 wrote:
    Mad_Malx wrote:
    Craigus89 wrote:
    Surely on a 25 minute commute intervals are a bit pointless? I would have thought you'd be better just riding it as hard as you can. With the amount of riding you are doing (not much of a training load and no specific goal) I would have thought the benefit of anything structured in those small time frames would be negligible.

    But it's impossible to ride full effort for 25min.

    Hence why I said as hard as you can. There will be inevitable slowing and speeding up which is basically what intervals do anyway. I really don't see the point, especially as the OP has no real objective.

    Out of interest, why would an objective matter (over wanting to maintain a level of fitness and besting my times over 25 miles)?

    I don't race or plan to, but I'm quite competitive with myself.
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,005
    Dinyull wrote:

    Out of interest, why would an objective matter (over wanting to maintain a level of fitness and besting my times over 25 miles)?

    I don't race or plan to, but I'm quite competitive with myself.

    For me it's just more interesting, and if the intervals mean I can maintain a high pace for further at the weekend then all the better. I'm never going to race either.
  • VamP
    VamP Posts: 674
    Dinyull wrote:
    VamP wrote:
    The only interval set that you can reasonably squeeze into 30 minutes is 1x10, and then only by keeping your recovery to 1 min. Which would do something, but not sure it would be optimal. Although, as per the above, if you have no objective beyond riding your bike, just ride the bike.

    To get a good quality session in, extend the commute. Your're already dressed and on your bike, so it's cheap time.

    See, I'm no training expert but I've been doing interval training for a while now and TR's intervals are anything from 20 seconds to half an hour.

    I'm renovating half the house and have a pregnant wife. It might be cheap time to you, but an extra 30 mins on the bike means the house takes longer to finish and/or less time spent with my wife.

    Cheap time compared to getting dressed and going out again later. I'm busy too, I think most people are.

    To get a quality session you need a certain volume with each level of intensity - so a 10x1 session would be a quality session. A 20 second interval by itself would be zero quality. Somebody above suggested 40-20 (I'd be looking at 3 or 4 sets of these of 10 minutes each, with 5-10 minutes between sets to make a quality session.)

    A quality session is one where you are unable to sustain a given interval performance for additional intervals. Hence predefined structures like 10x1, 10x2, 5x5, 3x10, 2x20 - they all approximately deliver the same amount of work. And take between 1 and 2 hours to complete. I don't do TR but if they are telling people they can get strong on 20 seconds to 30 minutes then they're having a laugh.

    If 5 hours is all you have then you really have to smart in how you use it (forget three recovery days) and if you're going to only have 3 hours when it's wet, then just sell the bike and use the time and money on house decorating instead.
  • VamP
    VamP Posts: 674
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    Presumably when you get to work you are expected to do something productive? In which case, smashing yourself to pieces on the way in might not be the best option. I don't commute any more, but when I did, I would ride in normally, then either extend the route or time-trial the commute home.

    Works for me :P

    You get used to smashing yourself to bits every time. Hard to do that much damage in 25 mins, so might as well go as hard as.

    Has helped me no end - can easily keep up with decent club runs at 70-100km on the weekend just on that.

    You can only do about half the work you need to improve in half an hour. Basically you're just treading water, even if yo do it every day.
  • dinyull
    dinyull Posts: 2,979
    VamP wrote:
    Dinyull wrote:
    VamP wrote:
    The only interval set that you can reasonably squeeze into 30 minutes is 1x10, and then only by keeping your recovery to 1 min. Which would do something, but not sure it would be optimal. Although, as per the above, if you have no objective beyond riding your bike, just ride the bike.

    To get a good quality session in, extend the commute. Your're already dressed and on your bike, so it's cheap time.

    See, I'm no training expert but I've been doing interval training for a while now and TR's intervals are anything from 20 seconds to half an hour.

    I'm renovating half the house and have a pregnant wife. It might be cheap time to you, but an extra 30 mins on the bike means the house takes longer to finish and/or less time spent with my wife.

    Cheap time compared to getting dressed and going out again later. I'm busy too, I think most people are.

    To get a quality session you need a certain volume with each level of intensity - so a 10x1 session would be a quality session. A 20 second interval by itself would be zero quality. Somebody above suggested 40-20 (I'd be looking at 3 or 4 sets of these of 10 minutes each, with 5-10 minutes between sets to make a quality session.)

    A quality session is one where you are unable to sustain a given interval performance for additional intervals. Hence predefined structures like 10x1, 10x2, 5x5, 3x10, 2x20 - they all approximately deliver the same amount of work. And take between 1 and 2 hours to complete. I don't do TR but if they are telling people they can get strong on 20 seconds to 30 minutes then they're having a laugh.

    If 5 hours is all you have then you really have to smart in how you use it (forget three recovery days) and if you're going to only have 3 hours when it's wet, then just sell the bike and use the time and money on house decorating instead.

    Don't know where you got the 3 hours wet sh*te from, but the rest is useful thanks.


    I'm not blinded to thinking training during a short commute is the best plan of action, just struggling for time at the moment and hoping to use what time on the bike I have at the minute.

    Once the house is out of the way, will find time to get back to using Trainerroad, but canny bit of work to be done first.

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