Power Meter for the Masses?

birdie23

Grill wrote:

So you simply decided to weigh in that Stages was a good product with no real knowledge of it or PMs in general? Seems legit.

I have knowledge of it and PMs in general, I don't have to own one to gain knowledge. I have taken information from a number of sources and come to a conclusion, something engineers often have to do. You have taken information from one source and come to a conclusion.

I have seen plenty of evidence that Stages measures LH power well, I have seen some evidence that the unit can be unreliable. So on the balance of the evidence it is likely that a Stages unit will do a good job of measuring someone's LH power.

FWIW if I was to want a power meter for whatever reason and I was looking for the best value solution I would buy a Quarq.

Grill

birdie23 wrote:

Grill wrote:

So you simply decided to weigh in that Stages was a good product with no real knowledge of it or PMs in general? Seems legit.

I have knowledge of it and PMs in general, I don't have to own one to gain knowledge. I have taken information from a number of sources and come to a conclusion, something engineers often have to do. You have taken information from one source and come to a conclusion.

I have seen plenty of evidence that Stages measures LH power well, I have seen some evidence that the unit can be unreliable. So on the balance of the evidence it is likely that a Stages unit will be a good job of measuring someone's LH power.

FWIW if I was to want a power meter for whatever reason and I was looking for the best value solution I would buy a Quarq.

I've conceded this point before (although peak power is still a massive issue), but as I've said it still makes for an incomplete, and thus ineffective, tool for many who train. It's marketed to those who want to get a power meter because that's what's trendy and glamorous. Some will use it as an effective training tool, but most will use it to flex about their numbers (if Zwift has taught us anything it's that people will go to extraordinary lengths to 'win' regardless of how much they cheat themselves).
My comment about carbon wheels was not literal, it was meant to draw a parallel between those who spend all their cash on things that will make them look fast (wheels, aero frames, etc.) as opposed to things that will actually make them fast (coaching, weight loss, aero testing). That said, these people are unlikely to buy a PT wheel (which is a shame as they could lace it to a pretty rim and kill two birds with one stone.

slowbike

Stages PM doesn't look fast - infact I'd suggest it's one of the least visible PMs - the guys at the club don't know if I'm riding with mine or not without careful checking - or asking me ...

"Many who train" - I train, I don't train to the level of some, but I train - I use the PM not because "it's trendy or glamorous" - I use it because it gives me a reliable, repeatable figure which indicates how I'm progressing. It's an effective training tool.

Why stages? I've already answered - because of it's price and flexibility in installation - at the time of purchase there was no real alternative pricewise - P2M came close, but meant a wholesale change on the bikes (££)

So - how much is P2M now? Cheapest I can see is €990 - or >£800 - Evans have got Stages for £360 ... (if you like silver)
Powertap ? Not talking s/h - talking new ... £500 from CR - then you've got to get a rim, spokes and built into a wheel ... £££?

birdie23

Grill wrote:

I've conceded this point before (although peak power is still a massive issue), but as I've said it still makes for an incomplete, and thus ineffective, tool for many who train.

Unless you have a substantial imbalance between your legs it will give you a good ball park number, as has been pointed out elsewhere, what really matters is consistency in the measurements. Even using a dumb trainer with Zwift or Trainerroad can be an effective tool to train even though it is basing your power off wheel speed and a power curve for that trainer, as long as you minimise the variables it will give you a representation of your efforts. Stages is clearly not the solution for you but it will be for some others based on cost/flexibility. So just as with the bikes themselves, there is no one size fits all solution and in order to achieve some things you may have to compromise on others.

MisterMuncher

Slowbike wrote:

So - how much is P2M now? Cheapest I can see is €990 - or >£800 - Evans have got Stages for £360 ... (if you like silver)
Powertap ? Not talking s/h - talking new ... £500 from CR - then you've got to get a rim, spokes and built into a wheel ... £££?

€690 for the FSA Gossamer type S with 24mm spindle, no rings. The effectively identical FSA Powerbox can be had for under £500, complete with rings.

The Stages is £360, if you already have a Shimano crank to put it on, of the right colour or if you don't mind the aesthetic compromise. For apples-with-apples comparison, you'd need to add the 80-odd quid for a 105 crank. The gap narrows.

That is, of course, assuming your frame/bb is compatible with Shimano kit, or that a 105 5800 crank wouldn't represent a downgrade. I use BB30 across all my bikes. To get a Stages compatible with the Cannondale Hollowgram on my good bike (Not actually the correct arm, either: They don't make one for the original Si or SiSL, only one for the new Si and SiSL2, which is heavier and leaves the pedals asymmetric on the older version) is £600. For my FSA SL-K on my training bike costs the same, assuming they've sorted out their long-standing carbon difficulties.

So, options wise:
P2M Hollowgram spider: Use my existing Hollowgram, crank, rings: €790
Powerbox Alloy: <£500: Stick it in the trainer, eat the weight gain
Stages for existing crank: £600 with large compromises or uncertain reliability
Stages for a new crank:
400-odd quid for 105, plus money for the new crank, conversion BB, accept significant downgrade in crank and inability to swap back rapidly to my older cranks
400 quid for the arm for the cheapest BB30 option still available, and a hunting match, another 100 quid for those) for the matching cranks, accept significant downgrade in crank.
Higher end stages/matching crank, at least a grand for something comparable to the Hollowgram.

Before we even get into PM comparisons, Stages isn't always the cheap or convenient choice.

meanredspider

I'm sure Stages isn't always the cheap or convenient choice but, given how ubiquitous Shimano Hollowtech is, for instance, it is often cheap and convenient. My Stages doesn't match some of my cranks for colour or spec (105/Ultegra) - has anyone ever noticed? Never. And, given the relative generations of 105 and Ultegra, my 105 Stages weighs only 13g more than the Ultegra crank arm it replaces on my Foil.

I go back to my original point - there's no one answer that suits everybody. For some it might be a PT hub, for some it might be P2M, for some it might be Vector and for some it might be Stages. But that's also why it's stupid to say that any one solution is best or, indeed, to suggest that anybody picked a certain solution for any particular reason. The acronym "YMMV" has never been more apt.

Palladium

Just noticed the HUGE price discrepency between the silver and black stages power meter?
Black - £449.99
Silver - £359.99
What a complete joke? Why does it cost £90 more to get a different colour?
I can't possibly have have black wheels, black frame, black everything, and then a silver crank?!

Would it be possible to get it spray painited?

Man Of Lard

Not that it matters because as soon as it gets cold or wet, you'll be returning it

Check the version of it though - G2 is improved (but still suffers water ingress and piss poor battery performance when it's cold). G1 best avoided at all costs.

cookeeemonster

Palladium wrote:

Just noticed the HUGE price discrepency between the silver and black stages power meter?
Black - £449.99
Silver - £359.99
What a complete joke? Why does it cost £90 more to get a different colour?

Because silver is in the sale due to being a less popular colour?

Palladium

CookeeeMonster wrote:

Palladium wrote:

Just noticed the HUGE price discrepency between the silver and black stages power meter?
Black - £449.99
Silver - £359.99
What a complete joke? Why does it cost £90 more to get a different colour?

Because silver is in the sale due to being a less popular colour?

I was just incredibly suprised as you rarely see two identical products, differing only by colour which vary in price by as much as 20% straight from the manufacturer. Thanks for confirming the difference is purely aesthetic though.

trivial_poursuivant

MisterMuncher wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

So - how much is P2M now? Cheapest I can see is €990 - or >£800 - Evans have got Stages for £360 ... (if you like silver)
Powertap ? Not talking s/h - talking new ... £500 from CR - then you've got to get a rim, spokes and built into a wheel ... £££?

€690 for the FSA Gossamer type S with 24mm spindle, no rings. The effectively identical FSA Powerbox can be had for under £500, complete with rings.

The Stages is £360, if you already have a Shimano crank to put it on, of the right colour or if you don't mind the aesthetic compromise. For apples-with-apples comparison, you'd need to add the 80-odd quid for a 105 crank. The gap narrows.

That is, of course, assuming your frame/bb is compatible with Shimano kit, or that a 105 5800 crank wouldn't represent a downgrade. I use BB30 across all my bikes. To get a Stages compatible with the Cannondale Hollowgram on my good bike (Not actually the correct arm, either: They don't make one for the original Si or SiSL, only one for the new Si and SiSL2, which is heavier and leaves the pedals asymmetric on the older version) is £600. For my FSA SL-K on my training bike costs the same, assuming they've sorted out their long-standing carbon difficulties.

So, options wise:
P2M Hollowgram spider: Use my existing Hollowgram, crank, rings: €790
Powerbox Alloy: <£500: Stick it in the trainer, eat the weight gain
Stages for existing crank: £600 with large compromises or uncertain reliability
Stages for a new crank:
400-odd quid for 105, plus money for the new crank, conversion BB, accept significant downgrade in crank and inability to swap back rapidly to my older cranks
400 quid for the arm for the cheapest BB30 option still available, and a hunting match, another 100 quid for those) for the matching cranks, accept significant downgrade in crank.
Higher end stages/matching crank, at least a grand for something comparable to the Hollowgram.

Before we even get into PM comparisons, Stages isn't always the cheap or convenient choice.

First option you mention is the FSA gossamer. This is a horrible heavy and ugly chainset and the only reason why the meter is so cheap. It certainly is not as aesthetically pleasing or as light as an Ultegra chainset. For the matter of you running BB30 , it is very possible to get reliable and noise free conversions both permanent or semi permanent fitting. I have used them myself without issue. Stages are a available on many more chainset versions. You can get a BB30 FSA generic version if you need for under 500. You can get an sl-k Carbon for just another 100 on top so you can use at least on your sl-k bike. This would still be your best option as transferring it to your other bike is simple. They both use the same system do they not? No adapters, no messing about with calibration etc.

You may be in a position where it may be a difficult option to use Stages but for many more if offers the best affordable solution.

MisterMuncher

FSA Gossamer crank with P2M spider is 760g-ish plus rings. Ultegra is about that with rings, but without power meter. As a full power sensing unit, a P2M is inherently more accurate than a Stages, which to me is with the 100-150g. Aesthetics very much in the eye of the beholder, I'm not sold on the four arm design yet, plus I have a variety of 5 arm rings I still use and swap between.

I have no interest in changing from BB30, my current setup works fine, and as previously mentioned, the cost of a replacement crank negates a large amount of the savings of using stages in the first place, to say nothing of the money already spent. I don't want mismatched crank arms, particularly if it means two different materials. Once you get up into the money for an SL-K stages, the difference of ca 100 quid to get a Hollowgram P2M spider or Rotor 3D isn't a major step for an inherently better system, with a much better record for reliability.

Swapping cranks between bikes is non-trivial when one bike has a Hollowgram, not easily removed/refitted due to close tolerances.

w00dster

Possibly a daft question, but here goes....
What is the difference between a 105 Stages and a Dura Ace Stages Power Meter?
I was supposed to be an early adopter for the Avio Power Meter when they were in discussions with the distributors earlier this year. I was hoping to have one early May but that doesn't seem to be happening now.
I have Dura Ace 170mm cranks and being the tight git I am I don't fancy spending £600 on a Dura Ace specific power meter if the 105 one would function exactly the same (but maybe with a slight weight penalty?) I can't think about what the difference is between the actual crank.
If there is a functional difference I guess the next option will be Garmin Vector single sided at £475 and get the other side at a later date (the missus won't think I've just spunked £850 on a power meter that way!)

trivial_poursuivant

w00dster wrote:

Possibly a daft question, but here goes....
What is the difference between a 105 Stages and a Dura Ace Stages Power Meter?
I was supposed to be an early adopter for the Avio Power Meter when they were in discussions with the distributors earlier this year. I was hoping to have one early May but that doesn't seem to be happening now.
I have Dura Ace 170mm cranks and being the tight git I am I don't fancy spending £600 on a Dura Ace specific power meter if the 105 one would function exactly the same (but maybe with a slight weight penalty?) I can't think about what the difference is between the actual crank.
If there is a functional difference I guess the next option will be Garmin Vector single sided at £475 and get the other side at a later date (the missus won't think I've just spunked £850 on a power meter that way!)

Absolutely nothing. The power meter itself is exactly the same on every incarnation. The dura ace costs more than the 105 since the crank are is made of a lighter material. That's all. Stages buy the arms from the chainset companies, stick on a meter and sell it on. So the original cost to Stages is the price they buy the crank arms for. Which is passed on to customers.

An option to you would be to buy the DA stages and stick your old crank arm on eBay and recoup part of the cost. Should fetch at least 50 quid

stueys

I think that stages did a great job at bringing the cost of PM's down, they really were the guys who bought this tech mainstream. But having run Vector for more than 2 years now I know that my power isn't evenly split, I run 49:51 or 48:52 but if you track my left:right split across a ride you'll see that it varies dependent on terrain, fatigue, etc, etc.

I run a P2M, Vector and a Neo, all of these are full power meters and none of them track each other exactly, though they are well within the bounds of being aligned to train interchangeably with. Adding a one sided power meter into the mix just introduces another variable that you don't really need, I think it made sense when a full power meter was priced significantly higher than a one sided one but now the differences are fairly negliable, IMHO it doesn't make sense to go one sided.

Though the weight of the stages has an appeal....

myideal

Has anyone actually got and tried the WattTeam power meter? Seems that at the moment is the cheapest DIY one on the market?