Power Meter for the Masses?

myideal
myideal Posts: 231
edited May 2017 in Road buying advice
Is this the one that brings about the power meter to the masses?

https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2017/02/wat ... eview.html

Has anyone actually got this meter? If so any thoughts on how well it performs?

Seems DC is pleased with it.
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Comments

  • NeXXus
    NeXXus Posts: 854
    Only if the masses want one
    And the people bowed and prayed, to the neon god they made.
  • chadders81
    chadders81 Posts: 744
    Got the FSA Powerbox for £500. Bit more expensive but has years of expertise from P2M behind it.

    Can be fitted cheaply enough.

    Great to see this kit going in the right direction price-wise.
  • courtmed
    courtmed Posts: 164
    Taking this further, how about this single sided crank arm one for £250?

    http://road.cc/content/tech-news/221643 ... -%C2%A3250

    Will definitely be looking out for a DC Rainmaker review on that one!
  • w00dster
    w00dster Posts: 880
    I have one of those Avid's on order, due to receive it early May I think.
    Unfortunately I don't have another pwoermeter so I won't be able to advise on whether or not its recording an accurate power output or not.
    I do train to power on a stationary bike (Athletes Lab in London) - so I'll have an idea if the power recording is way off the mark, but thats it. Also looks to be reasonably thick so not sure if it will fit.
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    All these cheap power meters come out and they're just awful. If people really cared about power on a budget then they'd buy a PowerTap wheel, but it doesn't happen because it's all about the look (i.e. carbon wheels).
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • meanredspider
    meanredspider Posts: 12,337
    Grill wrote:
    If people really cared about power on a budget then they'd buy a PowerTap wheel, but it doesn't happen because it's all about the look (i.e. carbon wheels).

    Or they might be running 3 different types of wheel on 3 different bikes. Or want to easily carry it on a plane. Or some other perfectly valid reason...
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • trivial_poursuivant
    trivial_poursuivant Posts: 1,136
    courtmed wrote:
    Taking this further, how about this single sided crank arm one for £250?

    http://road.cc/content/tech-news/221643 ... -%C2%A3250

    Will definitely be looking out for a DC Rainmaker review on that one!

    I can see this not fitting on a lot of bikes. I have a Stages and there are some frames that are quite tight when it comes to clearance. This new one looks a lot bigger than a Stages does so there could be issues. For me more cheaper meters is a good thing as It helps drive costs down with the level of competition. I would love to see the middle priced crank based systems like Quarq or Power2Max drop a few hundred quid. That would help kill off a lot of the cheapo systems
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    meanredspider wrote:
    Grill wrote:
    If people really cared about power on a budget then they'd buy a PowerTap wheel, but it doesn't happen because it's all about the look (i.e. carbon wheels).

    Or they might be running 3 different types of wheel on 3 different bikes. Or want to easily carry it on a plane. Or some other perfectly valid reason...

    Wut? You saying people can't travel with a PT wheel and/or they're unwilling to swap rear wheels? 3 different types of wheels but complain about the cost of a PM that delivers qualitative data... Okay.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • w00dster
    w00dster Posts: 880
    Grill, isn't a powertap wheelset still about £600 or £700?
    If so that's not quite the same as £250.
    If they were cheaper I'd be interested, I'm not worried about the wheelset being alu, this would purely be for training rides. £400 is probably my budget.
  • MisterMuncher
    MisterMuncher Posts: 1,302
    Second-hand PT wheels are well within that budget, new hubs can be picked up for around that much. No real need to get the PT front.

    In defense of the "cheap" FSA Powerbox, it's a Power2Max Type S with forthcoming BLE support. The biggest issues are that you're stuck with FSA rings, but I've never really had that much difficulty with them, and like all things FSA, it'll probably drop like a stone in retail price after a short while (although that's only an issue for the likes of me who went and bought one).

    It's edging me towards getting a P2M spider for the Hollowgram on the other bike, too. Power2Max make a very solid product, and I find it preferable to a PT wheel in execution.
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    w00dster wrote:
    Grill, isn't a powertap wheelset still about £600 or £700?
    If so that's not quite the same as £250.
    If they were cheaper I'd be interested, I'm not worried about the wheelset being alu, this would purely be for training rides. £400 is probably my budget.

    I picked up a G3 wheelset for ~300 last year.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • meanredspider
    meanredspider Posts: 12,337
    Grill wrote:
    meanredspider wrote:
    Grill wrote:
    If people really cared about power on a budget then they'd buy a PowerTap wheel, but it doesn't happen because it's all about the look (i.e. carbon wheels).

    Or they might be running 3 different types of wheel on 3 different bikes. Or want to easily carry it on a plane. Or some other perfectly valid reason...

    Wut? You saying people can't travel with a PT wheel and/or they're unwilling to swap rear wheels? 3 different types of wheels but complain about the cost of a PM that delivers qualitative data... Okay.

    You can stick a pair of PM pedals or Stages in your hand baggage. I've not tried getting a wheel in the EasyJet hand baggage checker.... So, if like me, you have bikes in different parts of the country or you want to use your PM on a rental bike, a PT wheel doesn't work - unless, of course, you want to pay (and wait) for hold baggage every flight. And yes, why would you buy 3 PT wheels? My Foil has an old-fashioned rim brake 10sp wheel. My Volagi has a narrow-spaced 10sp disc braked QR wheel. My Renegade is an 11sp TA disc wheel. Get a PT wheel for each? That sounds like a great idea.
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • chadders81
    chadders81 Posts: 744
    MisterMuncher wrote:
    Second-hand PT wheels are well within that budget, new hubs can be picked up for around that much. No real need to get the PT front.

    In defense of the "cheap" FSA Powerbox, it's a Power2Max Type S with forthcoming BLE support. The biggest issues are that you're stuck with FSA rings, but I've never really had that much difficulty with them, and like all things FSA, it'll probably drop like a stone in retail price after a short while (although that's only an issue for the likes of me who went and bought one).

    It's edging me towards getting a P2M spider for the Hollowgram on the other bike, too. Power2Max make a very solid product, and I find it preferable to a PT wheel in execution.

    Can't run Praxis with the FSA Powerbox?

    Either way, pleased with mine so far.
  • earth
    earth Posts: 934
    This is just a poor copy of the Limits power meter that the same DCRainMaker slandered on his website before it had even been released. Limits produced the first run of their power meter and have gone silent now. I have emailed them a number of times and no more responses.
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    Grill wrote:
    All these cheap power meters come out and they're just awful. If people really cared about power on a budget then they'd buy a PowerTap wheel, but it doesn't happen because it's all about the look (i.e. carbon wheels).

    Ok - what's awful about them?
    If they were really crap then generally people wouldn't buy them - well - obviously a few would because they think they're getting a power reading - same sort of people who would buy S-Works stickers to put on their non-branded carbon bike because it makes it look better - ultimately it doesn't matter.

    If it's just because they're only recording one side - that's a limitation of the product and a price many are willing to put up with for many reasons.

    When I was looking at getting a PM, the PowerTap wheel wouldn't work for me either btw - unless I bought two - I'd not want to use a deep section TT wheel on my road bike but I'd like power on both the road bike and the TT bike - crank based PM sorted that problem.
  • MisterMuncher
    MisterMuncher Posts: 1,302
    Nope, FSA four bolt rings only.
  • MisterMuncher
    MisterMuncher Posts: 1,302
    earth wrote:
    This is just a poor copy of the Limits power meter that the same DCRainMaker slandered on his website before it had even been released. Limits produced the first run of their power meter and have gone silent now. I have emailed them a number of times and no more responses.

    I own a Limits. He wasn't telling any lies. At some stage it may be updated or tweaked into a useful product, but it's far from close to ready. The inconsistency of readings, flimsy battery caps, fussiness on batteries, drop-outs and plain, simple inaccuracy relative to the rest of the market aren't acceptable.

    Limits cut their own throat by failing to deliver the promised product in anything like the promised time, whilst failing to engage in any honest communication. They are apparently working on further software/firmware updates to make the unit work. I hope they can make it work, sufficiently to sell enough units to get actual professionals to deal with customer service and sales.
  • joenobody
    joenobody Posts: 563
    earth wrote:
    ...DCRainMaker slandered on his website...
    :lol:
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    Slowbike wrote:
    Grill wrote:
    All these cheap power meters come out and they're just awful. If people really cared about power on a budget then they'd buy a PowerTap wheel, but it doesn't happen because it's all about the look (i.e. carbon wheels).

    Ok - what's awful about them?
    If they were really crap then generally people wouldn't buy them - well - obviously a few would because they think they're getting a power reading - same sort of people who would buy S-Works stickers to put on their non-branded carbon bike because it makes it look better - ultimately it doesn't matter.

    If it's just because they're only recording one side - that's a limitation of the product and a price many are willing to put up with for many reasons.

    When I was looking at getting a PM, the PowerTap wheel wouldn't work for me either btw - unless I bought two - I'd not want to use a deep section TT wheel on my road bike but I'd like power on both the road bike and the TT bike - crank based PM sorted that problem.

    Data quality is awful on all the single sided PMs I've seen (if you go double sided then you may as well go with a proven crank based system).

    Even for TTs you'd only need one PT as you can just use a disc cover. Crank based like P2M, Quarq, SRM, Infocrank, etc. are good too, but can be more difficult due to to the myriad of BB standards out there (easy enough if you opt for a 24mm spindle).
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    Grill wrote:
    Data quality is awful on all the single sided PMs I've seen (if you go double sided then you may as well go with a proven crank based system).
    Care to expand on that?
    Frequency of data?
    Value of data?
    Consitancy of data?
    Grill wrote:
    Even for TTs you'd only need one PT as you can just use a disc cover. Crank based like P2M, Quarq, SRM, Infocrank, etc. are good too, but can be more difficult due to to the myriad of BB standards out there (easy enough if you opt for a 24mm spindle).

    Disc cover on ... Disc cover off .... Disc cover on ... disc cover off ...

    Yes - could do P2M - similar price to the Stages - but I use compact on the road bike and standard on the TT bike - so I'd have to compromise that setup instead - could do - or I could just compromise on the onesided data ...

    and I get less messy swapping the Stages over ..
  • trivial_poursuivant
    trivial_poursuivant Posts: 1,136
    Grill wrote:
    Slowbike wrote:
    Grill wrote:
    All these cheap power meters come out and they're just awful. If people really cared about power on a budget then they'd buy a PowerTap wheel, but it doesn't happen because it's all about the look (i.e. carbon wheels).

    Ok - what's awful about them?
    If they were really crap then generally people wouldn't buy them - well - obviously a few would because they think they're getting a power reading - same sort of people who would buy S-Works stickers to put on their non-branded carbon bike because it makes it look better - ultimately it doesn't matter.

    If it's just because they're only recording one side - that's a limitation of the product and a price many are willing to put up with for many reasons.

    When I was looking at getting a PM, the PowerTap wheel wouldn't work for me either btw - unless I bought two - I'd not want to use a deep section TT wheel on my road bike but I'd like power on both the road bike and the TT bike - crank based PM sorted that problem.

    Data quality is awful on all the single sided PMs I've seen (if you go double sided then you may as well go with a proven crank based system).

    Even for TTs you'd only need one PT as you can just use a disc cover. Crank based like P2M, Quarq, SRM, Infocrank, etc. are good too, but can be more difficult due to to the myriad of BB standards out there (easy enough if you opt for a 24mm spindle).

    Excuse me for this, but I have read dozens of reviews of the Stages and many put the accuracy compared to higher end meters as negligible. I have not read a negative review at all online or in magazines, I have personally known professionally trained coaches recommend them and all the negative points I have heard or read are generally anecdotal and mostly about reliability of the unit in weather mainly referring to the mark 1 units with the dodgy battery door.

    It could be just brand snobbery and I am sure the level and extra information the top brands push out may be more in depth but that is not to say the accuracy of the Stages is poor. I have yet to see anyone dispute this. In summary the point you raise that single sided meters are awful is baseless.
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    Slowbike wrote:
    Grill wrote:
    Data quality is awful on all the single sided PMs I've seen (if you go double sided then you may as well go with a proven crank based system).
    Care to expand on that?
    Frequency of data?
    Value of data?
    Consitancy of data?
    Grill wrote:
    Even for TTs you'd only need one PT as you can just use a disc cover. Crank based like P2M, Quarq, SRM, Infocrank, etc. are good too, but can be more difficult due to to the myriad of BB standards out there (easy enough if you opt for a 24mm spindle).

    Disc cover on ... Disc cover off .... Disc cover on ... disc cover off ...

    Yes - could do P2M - similar price to the Stages - but I use compact on the road bike and standard on the TT bike - so I'd have to compromise that setup instead - could do - or I could just compromise on the onesided data ...

    and I get less messy swapping the Stages over ..

    There is nothing qualitative about single-sided data unless you are always at a 50/50 split. My track Stages compared to my track P2M is simply laughable (not just in regards to numbers, but also the dropouts).

    How many TTs do you do? Unless you're doing a midweek as well as weekends it's not a big deal to use a disc cover.
    If you want to swap crank based, then buy one with 110 BCD and get a second outer in 54+.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    Trivial poursuivant wrote:
    Grill wrote:
    Slowbike wrote:
    Grill wrote:
    All these cheap power meters come out and they're just awful. If people really cared about power on a budget then they'd buy a PowerTap wheel, but it doesn't happen because it's all about the look (i.e. carbon wheels).

    Ok - what's awful about them?
    If they were really crap then generally people wouldn't buy them - well - obviously a few would because they think they're getting a power reading - same sort of people who would buy S-Works stickers to put on their non-branded carbon bike because it makes it look better - ultimately it doesn't matter.

    If it's just because they're only recording one side - that's a limitation of the product and a price many are willing to put up with for many reasons.

    When I was looking at getting a PM, the PowerTap wheel wouldn't work for me either btw - unless I bought two - I'd not want to use a deep section TT wheel on my road bike but I'd like power on both the road bike and the TT bike - crank based PM sorted that problem.

    Data quality is awful on all the single sided PMs I've seen (if you go double sided then you may as well go with a proven crank based system).

    Even for TTs you'd only need one PT as you can just use a disc cover. Crank based like P2M, Quarq, SRM, Infocrank, etc. are good too, but can be more difficult due to to the myriad of BB standards out there (easy enough if you opt for a 24mm spindle).

    Excuse me for this, but I have read dozens of reviews of the Stages and many put the accuracy compared to higher end meters as negligible. I have not read a negative review at all online or in magazines, I have personally known professionally trained coaches recommend them and all the negative points I have heard or read are generally anecdotal and mostly about reliability of the unit in weather mainly referring to the mark 1 units with the dodgy battery door.

    It could be just brand snobbery and I am sure the level and extra information the top brands push out may be more in depth but that is not to say the accuracy of the Stages is poor. I have yet to see anyone dispute this. In summary the point you raise that single sided meters are awful is baseless.

    Oh it might be accurate on one side, but the data quality is poor (see my last post, I have one and it's not even close to my P2M). If you haven't heard anyone complaining then you haven't listened to any coaches out there.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • meanredspider
    meanredspider Posts: 12,337
    Trivial poursuivant wrote:

    Excuse me for this, but I have read dozens of reviews of the Stages and many put the accuracy compared to higher end meters as negligible. I have not read a negative review at all online or in magazines, I have personally known professionally trained coaches recommend them and all the negative points I have heard or read are generally anecdotal and mostly about reliability of the unit in weather mainly referring to the mark 1 units with the dodgy battery door.

    It could be just brand snobbery and I am sure the level and extra information the top brands push out may be more in depth but that is not to say the accuracy of the Stages is poor. I have yet to see anyone dispute this. In summary the point you raise that single sided meters are awful is baseless.

    Grill decided several years ago that he didn't like Stages and no number of satisfied users and coaches will persuade him otherwise. I've found mine remarkably consistent. There's no doubt you're measuring only your left leg but you know that when you buy it. Unless something happens to your left leg, there's very little reason to believe that changes in your aerobic capability won't be reflected in both legs consistently. And no drop-outs. Battery door problems - sure - but when it works it works exactly as I'd expect.
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    meanredspider wrote:
    Grill decided several years ago that he didn't like Stages and no number of satisfied users and coaches will persuade him otherwise. I've found mine remarkably consistent. There's no doubt you're measuring only your left leg but you know that when you buy it. Unless something happens to your left leg, there's very little reason to believe that changes in your aerobic capability won't be reflected in both legs consistently. And no drop-outs. Battery door problems - sure - but when it works it works exactly as I'd expect.

    Dude I have 5 PMs at the moment and they're all remarkably consistent except for the Stages. Spikes, dropouts, crap data (such as adding well over 100w to peak power even though it's on my weaker leg). It's crap and the only reasons I've kept it is to give me a vague idea of TSS for SQTs and track PMs are rare as hen's teeth.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • meanredspider
    meanredspider Posts: 12,337
    Grill wrote:
    meanredspider wrote:
    Grill decided several years ago that he didn't like Stages and no number of satisfied users and coaches will persuade him otherwise. I've found mine remarkably consistent. There's no doubt you're measuring only your left leg but you know that when you buy it. Unless something happens to your left leg, there's very little reason to believe that changes in your aerobic capability won't be reflected in both legs consistently. And no drop-outs. Battery door problems - sure - but when it works it works exactly as I'd expect.

    Dude I have 5 PMs at the moment and they're all remarkably consistent except for the Stages. Spikes, dropouts, crap data (such as adding well over 100w to peak power even though it's on my weaker leg). It's crap and the only reasons I've kept it is to give me a vague idea of TSS for SQTs and track PMs are rare as hen's teeth.

    "Dude" - it's a PM - let it go and accept that wanting cool carbon wheels (or whatever you suggested was the reason) isn't the reason that people don't buy PT hubs. And, let's face it, a track bike is the last place I'd fit a Stages.... :wink:
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    meanredspider wrote:
    Grill wrote:
    meanredspider wrote:
    Grill decided several years ago that he didn't like Stages and no number of satisfied users and coaches will persuade him otherwise. I've found mine remarkably consistent. There's no doubt you're measuring only your left leg but you know that when you buy it. Unless something happens to your left leg, there's very little reason to believe that changes in your aerobic capability won't be reflected in both legs consistently. And no drop-outs. Battery door problems - sure - but when it works it works exactly as I'd expect.

    Dude I have 5 PMs at the moment and they're all remarkably consistent except for the Stages. Spikes, dropouts, crap data (such as adding well over 100w to peak power even though it's on my weaker leg). It's crap and the only reasons I've kept it is to give me a vague idea of TSS for SQTs and track PMs are rare as hen's teeth.

    "Dude" - it's a PM - let it go and accept that wanting cool carbon wheels (or whatever you suggested was the reason) isn't the reason that people don't buy PT hubs. And, let's face it, a track bike is the last place I'd fit a Stages.... :wink:

    So it's good enough for your road bike but not your track bike even they do a track specific version? Sounds like a great product.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • meanredspider
    meanredspider Posts: 12,337
    I'm not a track rider but I've watched a fair bit and the types of effort involved wouldn't be best-suited to single-sided PM because I'd think you really do need to understand what each leg is doing (depending upon the discipline). And I don't really care if they market a "track" version: if Vauxhall marketed an off-roader, I wouldn't expect it to be great. And I do think of Stages as the Vauxhall of PMs - it's cheap(ish) and convenient and will give me most of what I need.

    Most of us riders just want something that can give us a pretty good idea how hard we're working and some sense of our fitness trends. The Stages does that with (mostly) very little fuss. If I was a serious amateur, I'd buy something better. I'm not. I'm happy.
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • Grill
    Grill Posts: 5,610
    So P2M, SRM, PT, and now Infocrank can make both road and track PMs, but Stages can't? Nope, doesn't gel.

    And Stages data is awful. Ask your coach what he/she think of it as compared to other systems.
    English Cycles V3 | Cervelo P5 | Cervelo T4 | Trek Domane Koppenberg
  • timothyw
    timothyw Posts: 2,482
    Personally, I fear that if I got a stages or other single sided power meter it would cause me to start favouring my left leg, regardless of what my balance was in the first place.

    I mean, you're going balls out doing your 500 watt interval... what's to stop you consciously or subconsciously pushing that bit less with the right leg?

    You're hitting your numbers so what's the problem?

    You can now hold the watts slightly longer, or sustain slightly more of them... only you aren't.


    The biggest problem for me though, is that on the commute I'm too busy dodging cars to watch my numbers, and on the club run I'm riding at the speed of the group - if I'm watching numbers I'd rather do it on the turbo, and for that I don't need a true power meter.

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