Felt AR rubbing behind chainring and wobbly front forks

jpower

Need some help

Last ride chain came off and I think it caught the sticker plate behind front chainring, was rubbing the rest of the way home. Have removed the chainrings and can see it had peeled away some this this metal sticker plate. Wondering whether just to best flatten whats left or to remove the whole thing?



Also front fork has a fair amount of movement back and forth, is there any rule on how much to tightened and should there be any movement at all?

trailflow

Those types of guards are pretty useless if you ask me. They are not very well thought out. They are too small. It clearly hasn't protected your frame very well with that hole in it and has still caused damage to your frame. That's a design fail. i suppose the damage could've been worse but what if it happens again in the same spot ?

Same thing happened to me on my Supersix with a similar looking piece of metal. It bent and the chain kept catching on it so i just ripped it off.

If you do remove it and want to further protect the area. Get some clear gorilla tape and stick it to the frame. But all over the chainstay and bb area. It will do a much better job than that farty piece of metal.

There should not be much movement in the fork. ideally none. So preload bung/top cap bolt needs to be tightened down more, to remove the play, but first loosen the stem bolts. Other causes of the play could be a cracked/broken steerer so its worth inspecting it.

I have found some headsets/steerer/stem combinations seem to just loosen just from riding no matter what, and doing a reset of the bung and top cap periodically Is the only fix.

And other headsets/stems seem to never need any attention and can stay play/movement free for ages.

I think it could be down to the design of the headset for the frame and it not being 100% perfect as it should/could be.

Just tighten the top cap abit more. Dont over do it.

jpower

@trialflow - fantastic advice thank you very much. Will go look for some tape tomorrow. Do you apply it long ways in one clean strip? Not pieces all the way up the chainstay right?

To be honest the bike came setup very poorly, on my first climb the steering went as it was tightened up enough, scary as hell. Trying to do some due diligence now and check over everything got me a torque wrench too this time.

jpower

One more question people keep saying change bottom bracket while cranks out. But it's new bike done 400k is there any point? It has FSA BB30 w/ 24mm spindle reducers currently.

jpower

Oh any advice on getting that plate off with least damage or mess?

trailflow

jpower wrote:

@trialflow - fantastic advice thank you very much. Will go look for some tape tomorrow. Do you apply it long ways in one clean strip? Not pieces all the way up the chainstay right?

To be honest the bike came setup very poorly, on my first climb the steering went as it was tightened up enough, scary as hell. Trying to do some due diligence now and check over everything got me a torque wrench too this time.

Yes i would try to apply it in one long strip(S) along the chainstay. You can apply it over the existing protector already on your chainstay. The BB area might need a more creative/artistic technique. Depends how neat you want it too look. Make sure the surface is properly clean from dirt first. Then it will stay stuck down better. And try to not leave any air bubbles.

jpower wrote:

One more question people keep saying change bottom bracket while cranks out. But it's new bike done 400k is there any point? It has FSA BB30 w/ 24mm spindle reducers currently.

Nah i''d leave it. Atleast see how well you get on with it. And only consider that if any issue presents itself. BB30 bearings are cheap and easy to replace. Full conversion sleeves are not.

Not everybody has problems with BB30. I have had 4 BB30 frames in the last 5 years. Never had a issue with creaks or unwanted noises. Only had the bearings fail which is normal they will do at some point. So they were replaced. Its alot easier to do with BB30 vs other pressfit systems. That's one thing i like about my BB30 frame.

jpower wrote:

Oh any advice on getting that plate off with least damage or mess?

Try and get under it where its sticking out and prise it off with a some kind of plastic tool. Dont use anything metal as that will dig into the frame. Mine was stuck to the frame with some soft, pliable glue like stuff. I guess it will be similar. Maybe a hair dryer will soften it up but dont go too close or for too long.

jpower

Thanks again, all sound advice. Will have a bash tomorrow if time arises.

jpower

plate removed, some clear gorilla is on, chain lubed, all running smooth.

The forks on the other hand, under the cover says 5mn, so I have done that after loosening the stem bolts, but the play is still there, removed it and put it back together still the same. Also take a look at this, is this right, I can see part of the fork:-



I hope nothing falls apart on tomorrows ride.

jpower

I just looked at an image of the bike from the Web

http://roadbikeaction.com/wp-content/up ... G_8917.jpg

If you zoom on the headset I can see the same gap. Starting to think this is how it's suppose to be, but it's gonna be a he'll of a ride on a bumpy downhill

svetty

If there's still play in the headset (and the bearing cover isn't fouling on the top-tube in the picture so that's OK) you need to add more preload before doing up the stem bolts.

trailflow

jpower wrote:

plate removed, some clear gorilla is on, chain lubed, all running smooth.

The forks on the other hand, under the cover says 5mn, so I have done that after loosening the stem bolts, but the play is still there, removed it and put it back together still the same. Also take a look at this, is this right, I can see part of the fork:-



I hope nothing falls apart on tomorrows ride.

You see that big conical top cover ? It looks like it comes in two peices. Can it be seperated from the bottom cover underneath? It looks like it can. Try removing the bottom cover. And try fitting the big conical cover only. It may help or may not. Worth a try. If it doesn't just refit it as it was before.

Yeah that gap looks abit too big for my liking. Really it should be a smaller gap than that. Are you sure the top bearing cartridge is the correct way round ? It's not upside down by any chance ?

If the bearings are fitted the correct way. Then its looks like the top bearing catridge is too big (too thick) for the frame. This is what i mean by saying some headsets are not 100% correct for the bike they are on.

If the people at Felt Bikes gave that the OK to send it to market like that. They are just plain lazy. No excuse for that except ill fitting bearings not really suitable for the frame.

Another possibilty is the bearings fitted at the factory were mixed up. And theyre could be a more suitable bearing for it.
Did you buy the bike at a shop? If you did. Ask them.

jpower

Purchased from an online retailer a few months back, probably my fault for not checking it out properly.

Pic of the full stack, not sure removing a ring will help me at all if that's what you meant.

trailflow

I mean the ring below the conical spacer. Can it be removed ? My Supersix has a similar two piece spacer. The bottom one is meant to be used on its own if you want to slam the stem. By removing it. You may be able to lessen the gap.

This

jpower

The ride today was quite hairy and very damn noisy.

So I have tried removing the cap you mention, did not help. I tried with one less spacer, didn't make any difference:-



Here another pic showing whats under the cover:-



I can take the whole lot out, but not sure what I should be looking for, I can see a lot of brown bits, so guessing there been some water ingress.

Any other steps for me, or is down to the workshop? Is a new headset expensive?

jpower

Wondering gone this far, should I dismantle it, and get new bearings? Can bearing really solve the problem?

Ben6899

You definitely need all the spacers otherwise you'll have the topcap bottoming out on the steerer tube before it preloads the bearings.

Quick question - and please don't take offence - do you know how the whole headset arrangement works? And do you know how to set the bearing preload?

If yes, then I suppose we need to determine why it's not working...

Is everything nice and snug? It's not uncommon for the ring (in your photo, green) - that sits inside the top bearing - to not be fully seated despite adjusting preload as one should. In the past I've had to push it into place before fitting the rest of the headset and going through the usual steps.

I have a feeling I haven't explained that at all well! But it could be the cause of your problem.

jpower

No offence taken, I am a total novice and going by advice from this forum and videos.

What is preloading? I thought you undo stem bolts and when you tightened the top bolt that is suppose to engage the preload. Should you feel that at all?

jgsi

Yes, headset bearings , especially the lower one are always going to get hammered by wet riding.
Thee was me expecting a 'newish' bike to have sealed bearings as well... how quaint
You could be perhaps mindful of a spacer above the stem.. not always needed, but in your case if the preload is not as good as it should be, it maybe something to bear in mind.

Is it a star nut?

Ben6899

jpower wrote:

What is preloading? I thought you undo stem bolts and when you tightened the top bolt that is suppose to engage the preload. Should you feel that at all?

That is preloading and should be enough and you should notice it very easily. But sometimes not everything moves against it's neighbour component as easily as it should - so it feels like you've snugged everything up, but you actually haven't.

I have seen it in the past where the centering sleeve (the green bit in your photo - I remember the name now!) isn't sitting as far into the bearing race as it should be... and so it isn't actually fully preloading those bearings. It feels like it is, but then everything moves a bit and hey ho the bearings are not preloaded.

trailflow

OK the spacer looks like a necessary piece so keep it.

One more thing to check. How big is the gap between the top of the steerer tube, and the top of the stem ? That is important.

If the gap is too small, when you tighten down the top cap/bung. The top cap and bung will run out adjustment and will bottom out on the top of the steerer, and it will prevent it from preloading properly.

The top of the steerer tube should be around 3mm below the top of the stem. To give sufficiant clearance when tightening down the top cap. If it's less than that. a quick solution is add a 5 or 10mm headset spacer above the stem between the top cap.

Also make sure the bung in the steerer is placed around 2cm deep in to the steerer if possible.

Also, what kind of bung is it ? as some require being tightened into the steerer before attaching the top cap. If it is loose at all. It can slide up the steerer when you try to tighten the top cap and that will effect the preload of the headset.

jpower

Yes the green ring being seated and makes a lot of sense, I tried to do that, but I must say I never felt that it was in too good no matter what I tried, so this may well be the issue but I see no solution to it either.

There no space at all on top of the stem, it finishes flush, included a pic:-



Nor do I see how an extension would fit on this.

Here a pic of the nut from the top, the cover does not tighten in place it's literally just a cap with a bit sticking out so it fits into the top:-



Screaming in pain.

trailflow

Yeah the gap between the top of the stem and top of the steerer/bung looks to be too small (but it should neither be too large. The gap should be 3mm max).

There isnt much of a gap at all. When you tighten the top cap it will compress down and the bottom surface of the top cap will touch the bung. I reckon this is whats causing this whole issue.

And the bolt that goes through the top cap is quite short. Normally that bolt is longer than that. around 3cm or 4cm on others. Because of that, it doesnt give you much room to play with.

So you have 2 options. Assuming your happy with the stem position now (if not you will need to reconfigure the headset spacers to suite the stem position you want. Because the bike was bought on mail order you are expected by the manufacturer to do this and to cut the steerer to your liking.)

1. Buy a 5mm headset spacer and put it above the stem inbetween the top cap. And also buy a longer bolt for the top cap if the current bolt no longer reaches the bung.

or

2. Remove the bung from the steerer and cut (or file) some material off the steerer (a few mm's). Then refit the bung.

Probably a job for a bike shop if your not confident cutting carbon. The last thing you want to do is cut the steerer too short. or breathe in the carbon fibres that will get into the air. They are toxic and bad for the lungs. If you are confident in cutting (or filling) the carbon. Use a good dust mark. and use a cutting guide to help.

Taking some material off the steerer will increase the gap slightly when you refit the bung. Then the top cap hopefully wont come into contact with the bung when tightened down.

a 5mm spacer above the stem just increases the gap in the same way. Giving the top cap the space it needs to compress down and remove the play of the frame,headset,fork.

Adding a 5mm spacer is the 'safe' option. Because it doesnt alter the steerer. If you alter the steerer height too much by mistake. The top stem clamp bolt will have less material to clamp onto. That is what you want to avoid.

Ben6899

Agree with trailflow - you need a 5mm spacer adding to the stack. I would put it on top of the stem.

Regardless of everything being seated properly, as things stand the topcap simply cannot be used to add preload.

jpower

Ok will procure the parts and try.

One thing that strikes me as strange though, I'm certain the first 250k I don't recall this issue and considering how bad and obvious it is now I'd be surprised if I didn't notice it. So it makes me believe that when it arrived it was fine hence adding a spacer now is strange if you see what I mean.

trailflow

jpower wrote:

Ok will procure the parts and try.

One thing that strikes me as strange though, I'm certain the first 250k I don't recall this issue and considering how bad and obvious it is now I'd be surprised if I didn't notice it. So it makes me believe that when it arrived it was fine hence adding a spacer now is strange if you see what I mean.

If the top cap was tightened down hard initialy that could have masked the problem. If the top cap bolt is made of soft alloy or steel and it has stretched even a tiny amount while riding,or the bung has loosened that will effect the preload. You can ride a headset that has a small amount of play without much issue. The steering or handling wont be hugely effected. Usually if you keep doing so the play will slowly get a little bigger and bigger and bigger. Then gets excessive and becomes noticeable to how the bike handles. So its possible not to have noticed anything at first.

jpower

Understood.

Bought some grease and a bunch of different size spacers, no joy on the longer bolt, will need to check my bolt spares once home.

I did take the fork apart last night and found this:



Bearing seems to move fine, so wondering is it just a clean or replace? If cleaning what should I use or not use?

jpower

@trialflow & Ben - did I tell you guys that you are the best :-)

You've cracked it, I added a 3mm spacer on top of the stem, tightened down felt way better, hit 5nm torque and tada I felt no movement at all :-)

I just tested this as a dry fit, but now as I have played so much with the headset I plan to clean it all up, grease and put it all back together. So still open question on whats best to clean that bottom bearing?

Question - does the 3mm spacer have to go at the top? I realise it will change the riding position a touch if I add below, but will it still allow the preload? It looks a little odd as it sticks out beyond the top cap, pic below:-



Honestly I am not that bothered about it, may just blacken out the grey bits and its all good.

Did I mention you guys rock.

trailflow

jpower wrote:

Bearing seems to move fine, so wondering is it just a clean or replace? If cleaning what should I use or not use?

Just give the fork a wipe with a rag and add some grease the bearings. Dont cover the fork with grease leave it dry.

The bottom bearing is impossible to keep 100% clean. Water and muck will find its way into the opening between the fork because its near the wheel. So it best practice to just periodically clean it. I clean the outside of my sealed bearings and fork every 6 months or so. Because your bearing are open ball bearings and are more open to the elements. You should clean and regrease them more often every 4 to 6 months or so. That's what i'd do anyway.

jpower wrote:

@trialflow & Ben - did I tell you guys that you are the best :-)

You've cracked it, I added a 3mm spacer on top of the stem, tightened down felt way better, hit 5nm torque and tada I felt no movement at all :-)

I just tested this as a dry fit, but now as I have played so much with the headset I plan to clean it all up, grease and put it all back together. So still open question on whats best to clean that bottom bearing?

Question - does the 3mm spacer have to go at the top? I realise it will change the riding position a touch if I add below, but will it still allow the preload? It looks a little odd as it sticks out beyond the top cap, pic below:-

Honestly I am not that bothered about it, may just blacken out the grey bits and its all good.

Did I mention you guys rock.

Happy to help. Glad you got it sorted.

The 3mm spacer can be re-arranged where ever you want it. You can even lower the stem and move a 10mm from the bottom to the top if you wish. As long as you keep the full stack of spacers, the stem and the top cap will still preload fine in the same way.

If you put the 3mm spacer under the stem, the stem height position will rise 3mm obviously.

If you do this, one thing too check is top bolt on the stem has enough material to clamp onto. Just be aware of that. In all liklihood 3mm wont be anywhere enough the cause any major issue.

Ben6899

What @trailflow said.

As for cleaning the bottom bearing I'd use Muc Off or a similar degreaser. Then lightly regrease.

Work cleanly. Don't get grease all over the steerer tube and don't get dust in there.

wotnoshoeseh

Presuming the fork is carbon there will be an expanding bung instead of a star nut. You should check that this steerer bung is secured in the steerer tube. The 5 Nm that this is marked with refers to how that should be tightened. Basically you will need to use an allen key inserted down through the threaded section (I think 4 mm. from memory), which then engages in the bolt on the bottom of the expander.

Then holding the outside of the bung in place on the top of the fork steerer tube, and turning the allen key anti-clockwise will secure the steerer bung in the steerer tube.

That's how the arrangement is on my Felt F Series anyhow, so I'm presuming it will be similar on the AR.

See Sheldon Brown's site - extract below...

"Star Fangled ® Nut
A special nut that is designed to be hammered into the steerer of a bicycle with a thread less headset, such as a Dia Compe "Aheadset" ®. The adjusting bolt screws into the "Star Fangled Nut."
The star-fangled nut has two barbed steel flanges that allow it to be forced downward into the steerer, but which prevent it from moving upward.

If you ever need to remove a star nut, the easiest way is by driving it down and out the bottom of the steerer with a hammer and punch.

Star nuts are only for use on metal steerers and should never be used on carbon steerers. Forks with carbon steerers generally come with special expansion plugs that serve the function of a star nut, without the sharp edges that might damage the fragile carbon steerer."

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gloss_st-z.html

jpower

Your right it's expanding bung type. I will check that was down all the way. Thanks.