Age related muscle wastage in legs
Comments
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In cyclists it is quite probably more prevalent than in the general population. There have been several studies specifically on cyclists and BMD / bone health.Garry H wrote:But is it more prevalent in cyclists?
Here's a couple of systematic reviews of bone health in cyclists:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3230645/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23256921
Some studies:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18072875
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12856112
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19127198
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10949001
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21068568
there are others if you care to search...
Competitive cyclists tend not to walk all that much, certainly don't run or jog much either. They prefer to do their hard exercise on the bike and rest as much as possible otherwise.Garry H wrote:Everybody walks, right?
Not everyone can walk all that much but can cycle much more, me for instance (I'm an amputee).
Some people have predisposition to osteopenia and if they are a cyclist they should undertake supplemental exercise for the condition.0 -
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Pinno wrote:
You didn't know that Alex was really called Alex..??0 -
Imposter wrote:reacher wrote:
They don't, they relate to your answer, whilst your certainly very knowledgable on certain subjects looking at your constant postings on subjects that clearly you have no in depth knowledge of or experiance why not just contain your answers to stuff that you do know about and not make assumptions about resistance training or what happens to the body as regards strength as you age. You should let other people who do know about this stuff answer instead of trying to make yourself look like you know everything when clearly you actually don't know because you have never done it
Mate - you need to calm down. Presumably you are taking issue with something I said up thread. Spell out which bit you disagree with - and why - and let's take it from there.
I see you quoted that old topic the one where Alex explained everything an you tried to be a smart arse on the back of it, too busy training an applying what Alex told me to spell stuff out for you sunshine, going very well as it happens seeing as you asked0 -
reacher wrote:Imposter wrote:reacher wrote:
They don't, they relate to your answer, whilst your certainly very knowledgable on certain subjects looking at your constant postings on subjects that clearly you have no in depth knowledge of or experiance why not just contain your answers to stuff that you do know about and not make assumptions about resistance training or what happens to the body as regards strength as you age. You should let other people who do know about this stuff answer instead of trying to make yourself look like you know everything when clearly you actually don't know because you have never done it
Mate - you need to calm down. Presumably you are taking issue with something I said up thread. Spell out which bit you disagree with - and why - and let's take it from there.
I see you quoted that old topic the one where Alex explained everything an you tried to be a smart ars* on the back of it, too busy training an applying what Alex told me to spell stuff out for you sunshine, going very well as it happens seeing as you asked
So when I ask you to list the points where you disagree, nothing specific comes to mind then. That's good to hear.0 -
bflk wrote:Went 3 months without any biking this winter, by far the longest I've been off the bike for quite a few years. Turned 54 in the spring and resumed in March - I had been running and racing* so still had some more general aerobic fitness. Really struggled at first... and still struggling, today I only averaged 13mph and that was ride #11. Quads possibly look a bit more developed but I'm started to fear I am fighting a losing battle with muscle wastage; hard to see any strength translating into 'performance'. Has anyone been in this situation before in their 50s? Did it come back eventually?
* for comparison my running times are marginally down on last autumn by around 0.5%.
At 53 and formerly (long ago) was competing and coaching in strength type sports so in comparison to my prime from about 32 to 36 I have declined a bit each year in strength for a few reasons.
1. Back in the day it was sports specific strength training only. The only time I did cardio was to make my weight class.
2. I ate massive amounts of calories and would go 30+ lbs over my competition weight in order to train heavier in the offseason.
3. The good hormones were and are in a decline.
4. My physical structure cannot handle the heavy loads and as a result I began to decline in training stimulus to keep that amount of strength.
Post competition and a stern warning from a doctor about my blood pressure being at dangerous levels I was introduced to cycling. What I found was exactly what I expected from training knowledge that my strength would provide nothing beneficial in the world of endurance sport. I knew from the beginning that if anything the years of strength training in such a manner would make cycling harder for me and it did.
Since I am not nor do I plan to even attempt to be competitive in cycling I am grateful to have my own sort of cross fitness going forward into these later years. So in terms of fighting a losing battle with strength and aging, that's just part of life that can be difficult to accept. I had several hard years in my late 30's of accepting this fact when my squat weight started dropping or I would have muscle strains (tear) by attempting to lift heavy. I still attempt progressive strength training 5 days a week and I believe I am fairly strong for being 53, but it is in a decline.
However, an older person can potentially improve strength coming from an untrained state.
When it comes to pure endurance road cycling, I have never experienced a moment where strength played a positive role. I've been around plenty of guys in mid 60's and older that can drop me in a second even though they look like flesh and bone and barely have enough muscle to stand up straight. The forces on a geared bike are low. Heck even a toddler with zero training of any sort have enough strength to pedal a single speed bike once they learn how to balance the bike. Just some of my ramblings on this subject.
Your post is a little older now. Hopefully you are back in the groove for cycling fitness.0 -
Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:[
Competitive cyclists tend not to walk all that much, certainly don't run or jog much either. They prefer to do their hard exercise on the bike and rest as much as possible otherwise.Garry H wrote:Everybody walks, right?
Not everyone can walk all that much but can cycle much more, me for instance (I'm an amputee).
Some people have predisposition to osteopenia and if they are a cyclist they should undertake supplemental exercise for the condition.
Not sure that I agree amateur competitive cyclists don't walk or jog much, most I know seem fairly outdoorsy type people who do a bit of walking in the countryside and a fair few came from a running background and often still do a bit.
The question for me would be does cycling in itself lead to a decline in bone density rather than it just not in itself being protective and secondly whether having spent your youth and 20s doing an impact sport like football or running give you a fair degree of protection decades later or is more a case of having to keep using it to avoid losing it.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
Use it or lose it will apply to BMD. You might just start with a different base level.
As for my comment on competitive cyclists not walking, jogging or running much, that's just a function of i. maximising recovery and ii. running does not help attain one maximal cycling performance.
Of course some are competitive in the sense that they might race as well as do other forms of exercise. I really meant competitive in the sense of describing those seeking to attain the best performance they are capable of, which typically means not engaging in non-productive exercise modalities, or at least minimising those which are unnecessary for their regular life.0 -
cyclingaddiction wrote:bflk wrote:Went 3 months without any biking this winter, by far the longest I've been off the bike for quite a few years. Turned 54 in the spring and resumed in March - I had been running and racing* so still had some more general aerobic fitness. Really struggled at first... and still struggling, today I only averaged 13mph and that was ride #11. Quads possibly look a bit more developed but I'm started to fear I am fighting a losing battle with muscle wastage; hard to see any strength translating into 'performance'. Has anyone been in this situation before in their 50s? Did it come back eventually?
* for comparison my running times are marginally down on last autumn by around 0.5%.
At 53 and formerly (long ago) was competing and coaching in strength type sports so in comparison to my prime from about 32 to 36 I have declined a bit each year in strength for a few reasons.
1. Back in the day it was sports specific strength training only. The only time I did cardio was to make my weight class.
2. I ate massive amounts of calories and would go 30+ lbs over my competition weight in order to train heavier in the offseason.
3. The good hormones were and are in a decline.
4. My physical structure cannot handle the heavy loads and as a result I began to decline in training stimulus to keep that amount of strength.
Post competition and a stern warning from a doctor about my blood pressure being at dangerous levels I was introduced to cycling. What I found was exactly what I expected from training knowledge that my strength would provide nothing beneficial in the world of endurance sport. I knew from the beginning that if anything the years of strength training in such a manner would make cycling harder for me and it did.
Since I am not nor do I plan to even attempt to be competitive in cycling I am grateful to have my own sort of cross fitness going forward into these later years. So in terms of fighting a losing battle with strength and aging, that's just part of life that can be difficult to accept. I had several hard years in my late 30's of accepting this fact when my squat weight started dropping or I would have muscle strains (tear) by attempting to lift heavy. I still attempt progressive strength training 5 days a week and I believe I am fairly strong for being 53, but it is in a decline.
However, an older person can potentially improve strength coming from an untrained state.
When it comes to pure endurance road cycling, I have never experienced a moment where strength played a positive role. I've been around plenty of guys in mid 60's and older that can drop me in a second even though they look like flesh and bone and barely have enough muscle to stand up straight. The forces on a geared bike are low. Heck even a toddler with zero training of any sort have enough strength to pedal a single speed bike once they learn how to balance the bike. Just some of my ramblings on this subject.
Your post is a little older now. Hopefully you are back in the groove for cycling fitness.
Exactly, their ramblings based on your personal experiance only, strength as you age will and does play a positive role in your life, unfortunately as much as you and others may discuss strength training and attempts to convince yourselves that it's wasted effort as you age the science says the exact opposite. As to strength on the bike saying a toddler or a women of 80 has the leg strength to pedal a bike in theory that's true just doesn't work in practice trying to go uphill fast0 -
FWIW. I've a knackered right leg, partial missing knee joint which means the leg is light on muscle mass.
However cycling has built up the muscle ( right leg is still shagged though)and no doubt I've overcompensated with my left leg but I still endeavour to put equal power through each leg with smooth pedal strokes
What I'm trying to say, it doesn't matter at the age your referencing, just eat healthily and get plenty of rest“Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring”
Desmond Tutu0 -
reacher wrote:As to strength on the bike saying a toddler or a women of 80 has the leg strength to pedal a bike in theory that's true just doesn't work in practice trying to go uphill fast
Of course it doesn't work in practice, but that's the point. The strength demand is low and can be met by most able people (ok, maybe not a toddler), But you've just inadvertently underlined the point that what makes the difference is aerobic capacity/capability and not strength itself.0 -
After lower leg amputation which resulted in a significant loss of leg strength, I was still able to generate the same sustainable power from around 20-seconds out to several hours. Indeed my 25km TT power PB was post amputation, as was my hillclimb power PB. Leg strength was down about 25%, while sustainable power output was unaffected.0
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reacher wrote:Exactly, their ramblings based on your personal experiance only, strength as you age will and does play a positive role in your life, unfortunately as much as you and others may discuss strength training and attempts to convince yourselves that it's wasted effort as you age the science says the exact opposite. As to strength on the bike saying a toddler or a women of 80 has the leg strength to pedal a bike in theory that's true just doesn't work in practice trying to go uphill fast
Actually I pointed out that I am grateful to continue on in my later years with strength training and I added cycling, where it was once taboo when I competed in strength, to have my own personal brand of cross fitness.
Maybe I was being a little facetious with the toddler analogy.
Others have already pointed out the error between using strength vs power output in these discussions.
It is good to know (coach or athlete) what training gear/tools to use to shape training for a specific goal. Since weight training is used as supplemental to a variety of sports and it can get fuzzy at times I often consider each movement and how it related to the Force / Velocity curve and if resistance training is the right tool to pull out of the toolbox.
When "climbing a hill fast" is the specific goal than I am fairly sure that working toward an improved 1RM on squats is not going to be of much help. Doing 50 lbs squats for a gazillion reps (which is not strength training) may have some slight crossover, but if you are going to do that trying to emulate cycling than why not just specifically do cycling?
Strength training is my specialty for 30+ years so I would not discourage anyone from venturing into it, but I do think it is good to know what tools to use and how to use them to get to the end goal. Being that I am primarily focused on strength training I would be extremely happy if my years at the squat rack had any benefit going up hills. Unfortunately I am usually the last one up and it is the light guys and gals with good sustainable power output that are at the crest of the climb waiting anxiously for my arrival.
My N=1 lines up with a lot of other cyclists. The more time I spend on the bike at different durations and intensity levels the better I get going up hills. Like Alex mentioned earlier about avoiding other activities to be fresh for specific training, it is my belief that my interval training on the bike would go much better if I dropped strength training and were more fresh to hit those interval targets. That's just a guess, but I think it would be true based on past experience and training others.0 -
cyclingaddiction wrote:reacher wrote:Exactly...fast
Actually ...Unfortunately I am usually the last one up and it is the light guys and gals with good sustainable power output that are at the crest of the climb waiting anxiously for my arrival.
Boy that's another can of worms to be opened. The light guys may have less strength than you but a much better power to weight ratio and then add cardio-vascular fitness differences.
Froome dog pedals quickly uphill but, that's a whole different ball game: strength, fitness, condition, stamina all mixed together in abundance. We're just mere mortals.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Pinno wrote:cyclingaddiction wrote:reacher wrote:Exactly...fast
Actually ...Unfortunately I am usually the last one up and it is the light guys and gals with good sustainable power output that are at the crest of the climb waiting anxiously for my arrival.
Boy that's another can of worms to be opened. The light guys may have less strength than you but a much better power to weight ratio and then add cardio-vascular fitness differences.
Froome dog pedals quickly uphill but, that's a whole different ball game: strength, fitness, condition, stamina all mixed together in abundance. We're just mere mortals.
Maybe, but Froome is still human like the rest of us (presumably), so will have the same physiology. His w/kg and sustainable power are likely to be the biggest differences between him and us. Put him on a leg press machine and I don't imagine the results would be that impressive.0 -
Imposter wrote:Pinno wrote:cyclingaddiction wrote:reacher wrote:Exactly...fast
Actually ...Unfortunately I am usually the last one up and it is the light guys and gals with good sustainable power output that are at the crest of the climb waiting anxiously for my arrival.
Boy that's another can of worms to be opened. The light guys may have less strength than you but a much better power to weight ratio and then add cardio-vascular fitness differences.
Froome dog pedals quickly uphill but, that's a whole different ball game: strength, fitness, condition, stamina all mixed together in abundance. We're just mere mortals.
Maybe, but Froome is still human like the rest of us (presumably), so will have the same physiology. His w/kg and sustainable power are likely to be the biggest differences between him and us. Put him on a leg press machine and I don't imagine the results would be that impressive.
See your at it again, your all trying to compare what pro cyclists do and what you should be doing as you age to sustain your physical capabilities. It's not about what you can do or the requirements of being able to turn a pedal it's what's happening to your body that will determine the outcome of your later years as a sportsman. If all you required was the strength of an old lady rising from a chair to pedal a bike you would have 70 year old guys in the pro peloton and you don't have that. The question is age related muscle wastage does it happen or not and the answer is yes it does or simply put you would old people competing against young people in all types of sport and beating them or doing the same performance. Saying that a old guy on a bike can still put in a credible performance does not mean that sooner or later his physical capabilities will not diminish because they will, the point is that by doing certain types of training in particular strength training will help to offset the ravages of getting older. Your body as you age will only be as strong as its weakest part comparing yourself to Chris Froome and because he doesn't need to do much else but pedal a bike is not quite the same for a old person trying to maintain longevity in training and riding a bike, for sure you could just ride a bike it will do the job, riding a bike and doing strength training as you get older is just better is all,0 -
reacher wrote:It's not about what you can do or the requirements of being able to turn a pedal it's what's happening to your body that will determine the outcome of your later years as a sportsman. If all you required was the strength of an old lady rising from a chair to pedal a bike you would have 70 year old guys in the pro peloton and you don't have that. The question is age related muscle wastage does it happen or not and the answer is yes it does or simply put you would old people competing against young people in all types of sport and beating them or doing the same performance. Saying that a old guy on a bike can still put in a credible performance does not mean that sooner or later his physical capabilities will not diminish because they will, the point is that by doing certain types of training in particular strength training will help to offset the ravages of getting older. Your body as you age will only be as strong as its weakest part comparing yourself to Chris Froome and because he doesn't need to do much else but pedal a bike is not quite the same for a old person trying to maintain longevity in training and riding a bike, for sure you could just ride a bike it will do the job, riding a bike and doing strength training as you get older is just better is all,
I have this view and apply it weekly in my own personal training by using strength training and cycling to have what I would like to think would be a form of cross fitness, but I personally could not proclaim it is better in terms of cycling performance. Oh how I wished it were true that in my N=1 that my time and investment into strength training in all these years crossed over to some form of benefit to cycling performance, but I see none or have experienced none.
While you have confidence in this to be better, I simply could not state that is better with such confidence. Yet I am far more invested into year round progressive strength training than most bike forum members. It is my primary training focus.0 -
A combination of cardio and strength training is going to be better. If the definition of better is to maintain muscle mass and overall fitness. That's a no brainer. As someone who cycles and does a lot of strength training I can also say that it hasn't helped my endurance road ability (i.e. the typical 60-100 mile sportif type stuff) I am quicker at TTs though, but I've been practicing. I've also found it helps with long distance MTB (less pain from the pounding on the shoulders).
You'll always get better results if you mix things up from time to time. I may want to be as fast as bradley wiggins, but I'm not ready to swap upper bodies with him.0 -
bflk wrote:Went 3 months without any biking this winter, by far the longest I've been off the bike for quite a few years. Turned 54 in the spring and resumed in March - I had been running and racing* so still had some more general aerobic fitness. Really struggled at first... and still struggling, today I only averaged 13mph and that was ride #11. Quads possibly look a bit more developed but I'm started to fear I am fighting a losing battle with muscle wastage; hard to see any strength translating into 'performance'. Has anyone been in this situation before in their 50s? Did it come back eventually?
* for comparison my running times are marginally down on last autumn by around 0.5%.
By way of update, it did take about 3 months to get back to last summer's form which is a lot longer than I'd expected but predicted by previous responses.
At the same time (rather bizarrely in a way) I've started getting chest pain on the climbs and it looks like I have angina again, used to get it a few years ago. But to have that come on as I'm simultaneously getting fitter at least bikewise is weird. It might explain why I struggled back in March but then again, it may not. Maybe starting effectively from scratch I'm improving faster than my arteries can slow me down...0 -
Maybe... not taking so long off the bike would have been more conducive and perhaps, trying to ascertain muscle wastage when the specific exercise has been intermittent, is a little spurious. Condition for muscles specific to an activity starts to wane after just 2 weeks.
Maybe...you need to maintain the continuity, even if it's a just a regular few miles here and there.
Quite what you were expecting, i'm not sure.
I'm not sure and I don't know of the validity of saying that you have maintained cardio-vascular fitness but it was in a different sport.
You know what they say: A good summer always follows a good winter.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
I should have made a bit more effort but I get really bad chilblains in winter and got a puncture in November and just bunged it in the cupboard. It wasn't meant to stay there all winter but in the end it did.
re: cv fitness in another leg-utilising sport, I don't know the answer and I would love to find it in research but haven't so far. I did read a paper last year which suggested that there is some training modification even to leg muscles that weren't being used in the exercise but that might just be going beyond the scientific consensus.0 -
bflk wrote:I should have made a bit more effort but I get really bad chilblains in winter and got a puncture in November and just bunged it in the cupboard. It wasn't meant to stay there all winter but in the end it did.
I hate the cold. A medical condition plus the fact that I was born in the tropics, means that I do struggle in cold weather.
But... There's such an array of good winter clothing (snoods for example). When it gets too cold, I can jump on the rollers.
With some other stimuli,, you can spend a long time on them. I want to get another Turbo trainer as an alternative and for a bit more resistance for a shorter, more intensive workout than the rollers.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0
