Scottish Referendum - Part Deux

First.Aspect

So, Scotland will apply for EU membership and use the pound, apparently. Using the pound if leaving the UK and not using the Euro if re-entering the EU are two things that have already been roundly rejected as not being possible by the other countries that count.

The lies begin.

rolf_f

PBlakeney wrote:

RallyBiker wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

Can we not just do away with the scottish parliament - and the welsh one too ...

what a waste of money - no matter where it comes from ...

this from the times in 2010

Scottish Parliament costs taxpayers £72 million per year
The figure includes £23 million spent employing more than 500 staff at an average of £45,500 each, about 60 per cent more than the average Scottish salary. The sum does not include catering workers and those employed directly by MSPs.

A further £19 million was spent on administration and general running costs, with huge sums allocated for furniture, taxis for MSPs and computer equipment.

The public purse was also charged for providing Holyrood staff with help to stop smoking, Gaelic classes and agency workers on short-term contracts to aid them with their duties.

There was public uproar after the £414 million Scottish Parliament building was completed 10 times over budget and three years late.

But the Tories, who uncovered the figures, said Holyrood should scale back its running costs as families across the country struggle to make ends meet

And it's gone up since then ...

103 million budgeted this year. Ok, out of a total spend of 31billion it's less than 1% - but 100 million could go a long way - - it's 30% of the Culture Tourism and External Affairs or 25% of the Economy Jobs and Fairwork budgets - or another £20 in the pocket for every citizen of Scotland ...

Hear,hear. Total waste of money. Get rid of the whole lot I say and run everything from Westminster!

How much does Westminster cost?
Do away with that too.

It (Westminster) will of course cost a vast amount more post Brexit when we have to learn to do all those tasks we previously shared with Europe on our own. Economies of scale and all that. Lots of repetition; you know it makes sense.........

mamba80

Ballysmate wrote:

i would say considering the amount of blood and treasure we ve invested in Europe over the last 100 or so years, the European bond is deeper and far more important to us, add in the trade and reliance we ve have to each other, then yes the Union is pretty pointless, we may well find that the US defence we ve relied on since the 2nd WW is about to go, we are facing climate change, leaving the worlds largest trading block to throw in with a lunatic in america???? so yes i value the European relationship a whole lot more than one with Scotland.

Mamba, you've posted some bollox in your time on here and this is right up ther with the best.
That treasure and particularly blood that we have invested includes Scottish blood or are you speaking as a Little Englander that you seem to so despise.
To dismiss Scottish sacrifice on the continent in such a manner is nothing short of offensive.

you just can't keep it civil can you? so .......

Bally Bollox would be a good name for you?

Scotlands political leadership wants to leave the Union - fact - perhaps the Scottish people want to also? a vote in 2019 or 2020 will decide - Scotland has indeed invested blood and treasure in Europe and their Gov wishes to continue a full relationship with europe, they are the ones that value this sacrifice.

Strangely, you do speak of Scotland as a nation but wish to deny them any chance of doing so, imposing YOUR will on them.

As i said, if Scotland can make a go of it and they vote to do so, then what exactly is the problem here?

WE (england) are the ones who want to turn our backs on an institution that has its origins in preventing future conflicts in europe and in doing so, are in danger of turning our backs on europe as a continent - you really cant see that can you?

You Bally epitomise the little Englander, constantly defending, indeed glorying in the UK leaving the EU, and then always coming up with "but i voted Remain" really, if you did, you ve had an about turn, similar to TM lol!

ballysmate

Mamba. yes I did vote Remain, for economic reasons, not ideological ones and I would vote on the same basis if I had a vote in any Scottish referendum. I set out my voting intention on here months before the vote.
I haven't gloried in the UK leaving, as it will hit my pocket as much as anyone else's if things go pear shaped, but I haven't gone along with the view that leaving the EU would leave us the wrong side of the River Styx as some on here would have us believe.

You are right, the Scottish politicians want to leave the UK, but the Scottish people? They said NO just over 2 years ago didn't they and polls show no enthusiasm for rerunning the same campaign.
TM has ruled out a referendum until it is clear what the Scots would be voting for, a sensible position in my view. A luxury not afforded the UK by the EU by the way.
I have nowhere said that I wish to deny the Scots independence. If you go back I am sure you will find where I said that I fully understood why some Scots to leave.

surrey_commuter

Ballysmate wrote:

Mamba. yes I did vote Remain, for economic reasons, not ideological ones and I would vote on the same basis if I had a vote in any Scottish referendum. I set out my voting intention on here months before the vote.
I haven't gloried in the UK leaving, as it will hit my pocket as much as anyone else's if things go pear shaped, but I haven't gone along with the view that leaving the EU would leave us the wrong side of the River Styx as some on here would have us believe.

You are right, the Scottish politicians want to leave the UK, but the Scottish people? They said NO just over 2 years ago didn't they and polls show no enthusiasm for rerunning the same campaign.
TM has ruled out a referendum until it is clear what the Scots would be voting for, a sensible position in my view. A luxury not afforded the UK by the EU by the way.
I have nowhere said that I wish to deny the Scots independence. If you go back I am sure you will find where I said that I fully understood why some Scots to leave.

the "collective we" need to find somebody else to blame.

ballysmate

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Mamba. yes I did vote Remain, for economic reasons, not ideological ones and I would vote on the same basis if I had a vote in any Scottish referendum. I set out my voting intention on here months before the vote.
I haven't gloried in the UK leaving, as it will hit my pocket as much as anyone else's if things go pear shaped, but I haven't gone along with the view that leaving the EU would leave us the wrong side of the River Styx as some on here would have us believe.

You are right, the Scottish politicians want to leave the UK, but the Scottish people? They said NO just over 2 years ago didn't they and polls show no enthusiasm for rerunning the same campaign.
TM has ruled out a referendum until it is clear what the Scots would be voting for, a sensible position in my view. A luxury not afforded the UK by the EU by the way.
I have nowhere said that I wish to deny the Scots independence. If you go back I am sure you will find where I said that I fully understood why some Scots to leave.

the "collective we" need to find somebody else to blame.

Not blaming anyone, just pointing out the mechanism by which countries may leave the EU. You decide to leave and THEN talk about terms. The EU and that includes the UK made it thus by the way it drew up the treaties, so previous UK governments were equally culpable in the way treaties were drawn up.
Just pointing out that agreeing terms before any decision is made seems much more sensible.

surrey_commuter

Ballysmate wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Mamba. yes I did vote Remain, for economic reasons, not ideological ones and I would vote on the same basis if I had a vote in any Scottish referendum. I set out my voting intention on here months before the vote.
I haven't gloried in the UK leaving, as it will hit my pocket as much as anyone else's if things go pear shaped, but I haven't gone along with the view that leaving the EU would leave us the wrong side of the River Styx as some on here would have us believe.

You are right, the Scottish politicians want to leave the UK, but the Scottish people? They said NO just over 2 years ago didn't they and polls show no enthusiasm for rerunning the same campaign.
TM has ruled out a referendum until it is clear what the Scots would be voting for, a sensible position in my view. A luxury not afforded the UK by the EU by the way.
I have nowhere said that I wish to deny the Scots independence. If you go back I am sure you will find where I said that I fully understood why some Scots to leave.

the "collective we" need to find somebody else to blame.

Not blaming anyone, just pointing out the mechanism by which countries may leave the EU. You decide to leave and THEN talk about terms. The EU and that includes the UK made it thus by the way it drew up the treaties, so previous UK governments were equally culpable in the way treaties were drawn up.
Just pointing out that agreeing terms before any decision is made seems much more sensible.

I could not agree more. But as we have also discussed once we rejected FoM and ECJ it pretty much decided where we will end up so we could have said what life would look like post-Brexit.

In the same way Sturgeon knows EU membership will be somewhere between decades and never. A bit of prodding would ascertain whether EFTA is possible and from there what the world would look like. Of course she may think that telling everybody what they want to hear is a better tactic.

diy

There seems to be a lot of noise coming from Scotland that they don't want another independence vote. I personally find the whole thing triggers a lot of racism. Just yesterday I found myself trying buy non-scottish porridge oats because I felt subconsciously annoyed. Daft really.

I don't think anyone who's owned a house for than 10 years in Ireland would think their economy was doing so well. The EU also made them sell their state owned assets (largely to the UK) as a result of their bail out.

secretsam

If they get Indyref2 and vote out, does that mean we can bin British Summer Time, as its sole beneficiaries are half a dozen Hebridean sheep farmers?

RallyBiker

SecretSam wrote:

If they get Indyref2 and vote out, does that mean we can bin British Summer Time, as its sole beneficiaries are half a dozen Hebridean sheep farmers?

Yet another reason for TM to force a refurendum! 8)

kingstongraham

SecretSam wrote:

If they get Indyref2 and vote out, does that mean we can bin British Summer Time, as its sole beneficiaries are half a dozen Hebridean sheep farmers?

I still don't understand this. Does someone tell the sheep that the time has changed?

bompington

I do feel a bit sorry for people whose urban environment means that sunrise and sunset are more or less meaningless. It matters to more than just a few sheep farmers. As it happens, they're all hard as nails and don't really care whether it's called 4am or 5am when they get up, but my kids are really happy that there's an hour more of daytime after school.

TLDR: there's a world beyond london, you know.

apreading

Surely cyclists are now benefitting from BST - its much nicer adding a long loop to the commute home now that I am doing it in daylight!

I never understood why they couldnt split the difference and effectively use GMT + 30 minutes and stick with it all year around. Could you imagine what it would do globally if we changed actual GMT to add 30 minutes onto it though...!

rolf_f

bompington wrote:

I do feel a bit sorry for people whose urban environment means that sunrise and sunset are more or less meaningless. It matters to more than just a few sheep farmers. As it happens, they're all hard as nails and don't really care whether it's called 4am or 5am when they get up, but my kids are really happy that there's an hour more of daytime after school.

TLDR: there's a world beyond london, you know.

It's not the hour or more daytime after school that you are gaining, it's the hour or more extra darkness after school you are losing.

Anyway, I don't think that being in an urban environment makes you any less interested in sunrise and sunset times than if you live in the country.

Stevo_666

SecretSam wrote:

If they get Indyref2 and vote out, does that mean we can bin British Summer Time, as its sole beneficiaries are half a dozen Hebridean sheep farmers?

I thought the Scottish connection to the time changes was the clocks going back to give a few Scottish farmers more daylight in the morning?

pblakeney

Stevo 666 wrote:

SecretSam wrote:

If they get Indyref2 and vote out, does that mean we can bin British Summer Time, as its sole beneficiaries are half a dozen Hebridean sheep farmers?

I thought the Scottish connection to the time changes was the clocks going back to give a few Scottish farmers more daylight in the morning?

Annual history lesson. No. Summer Time was introduced to give more evening daylight at the expense of very early daylight and is more beneficial further south than north. Winter Time is GMT.

rick_chasey

http://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwo ... -stalemate

THERE is an old chess short story about the grand master who ends up in a remote village. Short of money, he agrees to pay two locals; his meal will be free if he wins both matches. But there is a catch; in one game, he must play as white, in the other as black. As soon as the matches start, he realises his mistake when the man playing white in the second game simply copies the grand master's moves as white in the first. No matter what the master does, he cannot win both games; if he wins in the first, he must lose in the second.

The three-way negotiations between Britain, the European Union and Scotland could yet work out the same way. Every argument used by Theresa May against the EU can be used against her by Nicola Sturgeon.

bompington

So if what we really want to do is discuss the merits or otherwise of the often-proposed switch to permanent BST:
I can understand the attractions, and mostly it would work this far north too. But personally I really wouldn't fancy december days when it didn't get light till 10am, which is what we'd get sometimes. And I do mean dark, as in night, not just a bit grey.
And that's just here. From Dundee you can drive north for 5 hours or so before you reach the north coast.

kingstongraham

bompington wrote:

I do feel a bit sorry for people whose urban environment means that sunrise and sunset are more or less meaningless. It matters to more than just a few sheep farmers. As it happens, they're all hard as nails and don't really care whether it's called 4am or 5am when they get up, but my kids are really happy that there's an hour more of daytime after school.

TLDR: there's a world beyond london, you know.

I think most advocates for not changing the time say leave it as BST all year. Who prefers it to be lighter in the mornings other than farmers?

pblakeney

KingstonGraham wrote:

bompington wrote:

I do feel a bit sorry for people whose urban environment means that sunrise and sunset are more or less meaningless. It matters to more than just a few sheep farmers. As it happens, they're all hard as nails and don't really care whether it's called 4am or 5am when they get up, but my kids are really happy that there's an hour more of daytime after school.

TLDR: there's a world beyond london, you know.

I think most advocates for not changing the time say leave it as BST all year. Who prefers it to be lighter in the mornings other than farmers?

It starts to get light as early as 03:00 with BST.
I doubt many farmers want to start work at 02:00.

kingstongraham

bompington wrote:

So if what we really want to do is discuss the merits or otherwise of the often-proposed switch to permanent BST:
I can understand the attractions, and mostly it would work this far north too. But personally I really wouldn't fancy december days when it didn't get light till 10am, which is what we'd get sometimes. And I do mean dark, as in night, not just a bit grey.
And that's just here. From Dundee you can drive north for 5 hours or so before you reach the north coast.

9:46 would be the latest sunrise in Dundee. And think of all the extra enjoyment you could get from sunset being after 4:30pm.

No, there's no good answer for December when you get less than 7 hours. Except moving south.

pblakeney

KingstonGraham wrote:

bompington wrote:

So if what we really want to do is discuss the merits or otherwise of the often-proposed switch to permanent BST:
I can understand the attractions, and mostly it would work this far north too. But personally I really wouldn't fancy december days when it didn't get light till 10am, which is what we'd get sometimes. And I do mean dark, as in night, not just a bit grey.
And that's just here. From Dundee you can drive north for 5 hours or so before you reach the north coast.

9:46 would be the latest sunrise in Dundee. And think of all the extra enjoyment you could get from sunset being after 4:30pm.

No, there's no good answer for December when you get less than 7 hours. Except moving south.

Basically daylight during working hours either way. I'd prefer daylight when I am wakening rather just finishing work. As was proven during the trial in the 60s.

Ben6899

bompington wrote:

I do feel a bit sorry for people whose urban environment means that sunrise and sunset are more or less meaningless. It matters to more than just a few sheep farmers. As it happens, they're all hard as nails and don't really care whether it's called 4am or 5am when they get up, but my kids are really happy that there's an hour more of daytime after school.

TLDR: there's a world beyond london, you know.

We have night and day in London, you know.

slowbike

Rick Chasey wrote:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2017/03/playing-stalemate

THERE is an old chess short story about the grand master who ends up in a remote village. Short of money, he agrees to pay two locals; his meal will be free if he wins both matches. But there is a catch; in one game, he must play as white, in the other as black. As soon as the matches start, he realises his mistake when the man playing white in the second game simply copies the grand master's moves as white in the first. No matter what the master does, he cannot win both games; if he wins in the first, he must lose in the second.

The three-way negotiations between Britain, the European Union and Scotland could yet work out the same way. Every argument used by Theresa May against the EU can be used against her by Nicola Sturgeon.

If he was 1/2 the master he said he was then he can just change his responsive move which throws out the option for the white to follow his exact moves previously. But then that doesn't fit the anti-Brexit sentiment of the author.
Interesting that the photo in the article has Sugeron in "full colour" whilst May is somewhat more pale ... convenient photo editing?

kingstongraham

Slowbike wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2017/03/playing-stalemate

THERE is an old chess short story about the grand master who ends up in a remote village. Short of money, he agrees to pay two locals; his meal will be free if he wins both matches. But there is a catch; in one game, he must play as white, in the other as black. As soon as the matches start, he realises his mistake when the man playing white in the second game simply copies the grand master's moves as white in the first. No matter what the master does, he cannot win both games; if he wins in the first, he must lose in the second.

The three-way negotiations between Britain, the European Union and Scotland could yet work out the same way. Every argument used by Theresa May against the EU can be used against her by Nicola Sturgeon.

If he was 1/2 the master he said he was then he can just change his responsive move which throws out the option for the white to follow his exact moves previously. But then that doesn't fit the anti-Brexit sentiment of the author.
Interesting that the photo in the article has Sugeron in "full colour" whilst May is somewhat more pale ... convenient photo editing?

I think it only works if black in the first game is allowed to wait and follow the master's move with black in the second game.

rolf_f

PBlakeney wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

bompington wrote:

I do feel a bit sorry for people whose urban environment means that sunrise and sunset are more or less meaningless. It matters to more than just a few sheep farmers. As it happens, they're all hard as nails and don't really care whether it's called 4am or 5am when they get up, but my kids are really happy that there's an hour more of daytime after school.

TLDR: there's a world beyond london, you know.

I think most advocates for not changing the time say leave it as BST all year. Who prefers it to be lighter in the mornings other than farmers?

It starts to get light as early as 03:00 with BST.
I doubt many farmers want to start work at 02:00.

What difference does it make? If you are maximising your daylight hours surely you get up when it gets light - what arbitrary number there is on a clock probably shouldn't matter. It's more of a problem for those with less natural lives - whose employers insist on them being in the office at particular times etc.

What annoys me about it, living to the West of my office, is that the clocks changing means I get to put up with being sun blinded twice as often as I otherwise would.

slowbike

KingstonGraham wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2017/03/playing-stalemate

THERE is an old chess short story about the grand master who ends up in a remote village. Short of money, he agrees to pay two locals; his meal will be free if he wins both matches. But there is a catch; in one game, he must play as white, in the other as black. As soon as the matches start, he realises his mistake when the man playing white in the second game simply copies the grand master's moves as white in the first. No matter what the master does, he cannot win both games; if he wins in the first, he must lose in the second.

The three-way negotiations between Britain, the European Union and Scotland could yet work out the same way. Every argument used by Theresa May against the EU can be used against her by Nicola Sturgeon.

If he was 1/2 the master he said he was then he can just change his responsive move which throws out the option for the white to follow his exact moves previously. But then that doesn't fit the anti-Brexit sentiment of the author.
Interesting that the photo in the article has Sugeron in "full colour" whilst May is somewhat more pale ... convenient photo editing?

I think it only works if black in the first game is allowed to wait and follow the master's move with black in the second game.

eitherway - nice story - but it's an invalid claim ...

rick_chasey

*facepalm*

Some people don't understand the point of analogous stories do they?

TheBigBean

KingstonGraham wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2017/03/playing-stalemate

THERE is an old chess short story about the grand master who ends up in a remote village. Short of money, he agrees to pay two locals; his meal will be free if he wins both matches. But there is a catch; in one game, he must play as white, in the other as black. As soon as the matches start, he realises his mistake when the man playing white in the second game simply copies the grand master's moves as white in the first. No matter what the master does, he cannot win both games; if he wins in the first, he must lose in the second.

The three-way negotiations between Britain, the European Union and Scotland could yet work out the same way. Every argument used by Theresa May against the EU can be used against her by Nicola Sturgeon.

If he was 1/2 the master he said he was then he can just change his responsive move which throws out the option for the white to follow his exact moves previously. But then that doesn't fit the anti-Brexit sentiment of the author.
Interesting that the photo in the article has Sugeron in "full colour" whilst May is somewhat more pale ... convenient photo editing?

I think it only works if black in the first game is allowed to wait and follow the master's move with black in the second game.

Thanks for the explanation. These details are important. It should be in the story!

slowbike

Rick Chasey wrote:

*facepalm*

Some people don't understand the point of analogous stories do they?

*facepalm*

little point in an analogous story that is so full of holes it would sink without trace in the bath ...