Scottish Referendum - Part Deux

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  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    bompington wrote:
    I would say that there's an awful lot of cognitive dissonance going on in anyone who is either
    a) for brexit and against Scottish independence or
    b) against brexit and for scottish independence.

    Which is, of course, quite a lot of people.

    Fair.
    _
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    More broadly, it shows what a f*cking shitshow brexit is.

    You have a nation which has its own devolved separatist government leading a nation/region/dominion who didn't vote for Brexit.

    Ridiculous.
    _
  • mr_goo
    mr_goo Posts: 3,770
    Scottish independence can't come quick enough in my opinion.
    I want the population to know what it feels like to pay for prescriptions and eye tests. But most of all what it's like to be saddled with a student debt of £50k plus before you've even started out on your working life.
    Bl00dy disgrace.
    Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    I find it all funny in a road crash sort of way.

    Scotland voted strongly to stay in the EU. So when theb remainers lost Scotland lost. So they decide the best option is to leave the UK to stay in the EU. It will take 2 years to get a referendum through both parliaments. Article 50 is due this month.

    What does that mean? It's irrelevant because an independence vote in Scotland would always result in Scotland leaving the EU. There is no way of getting independence for Scotland without leaving the EU and thus going against the will of Scottish voters.

    It's this whole opposites thing that gets me confused about the state of mind of Scottish nationalists. They support opposing ideas. Leave a union but stay in a union. Leave one and you leave both. There's really no up side for the nat's position.

    Then there is going to be a downturn for their fortunes. By all accounts I've seen they're not exactly performing well up there. IMHO it seems Sturgeon is trying to become more widely known. By this i mean trying to put her name down in history for something significant. A touch of the Blair and hand of history on her shoulder perhaps.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    Mr Goo wrote:
    Scottish independence can't come quick enough in my opinion.
    I want the population to know what it feels like to pay for prescriptions and eye tests. But most of all what it's like to be saddled with a student debt of £50k plus before you've even started out on your working life.
    Bl00dy disgrace.

    So you want the EU to fail and you want Scots to feel the pain of student debt?

    Why not, y'know, aim a bit higher?

    Like the Euro succeeding and Britain being rich enough to not have students pay for their own further education?
    _
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Mr Goo wrote:
    Scottish independence can't come quick enough in my opinion.
    I want the population to know what it feels like to pay for prescriptions and eye tests. But most of all what it's like to be saddled with a student debt of £50k plus before you've even started out on your working life.
    Bl00dy disgrace.

    So you want the EU to fail and you want Scots to feel the pain of student debt?

    Why not, y'know, aim a bit higher?

    Like the Euro succeeding and Britain being rich enough to not have students pay for their own further education?
    The last lot to get a free education led to them making the decisions that took away free education surely? Plus lower social mobility and a whole lot of other goodies too. Of course some of that is possibly demographics related.

    I get your point though, there's a lot of negativity over Brexit and Scottish independence. They're certainly divisive subjects with emotion involved. Can't exactly do anything about that.
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    edited March 2017
    apreading wrote:
    And the other point is that there is no such thing as status quo in these cases. In the case of Brexit, the EU is constantly changing and likely to change in the future, in the case of IndyRef, the consitution of the UK is due to change massively. So there is no status quo to vote for really - you are voting for option a) or option b) and this can only be done based on majority.

    Depends on how you look at it. There is the status quo that we have been in the EU or its predecessors for 40 years and it's done a lot of good. Of course it changes - but nothing like the changes that leaving will inflict on us. To say there is no status quo in this circumstance is to say in effect that there is no such thing as a status quo at all.

    And certainly, there is no logical progression from this question either way that allows the conclusion that this can 'only' be done with a straight majority. It's a reasonable argument but not the only one.

    Point taken re table - but presumably that is a minimum requirement; what has applied re referenda that have actually happened?

    As for Scottish independence - that of course will result in a duplicate of the Ireland/Northern Ireland problem; the need to construct a hard border between England and Scotland. Of course the consequences of the English/Scottish border will be far less serious but, on the other hand, people in England and Scotland will care more about those consequences.......
    Faster than a tent.......
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    It's less emotion, more the nihilism I particularly find disturbing.

    "I want X to feel pain" where x is anyone that doesn't fit within your narrow definition of "us".

    Slippery slope that.
    _
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    bompington wrote:
    I would say that there's an awful lot of cognitive dissonance going on in anyone who is either
    a) for brexit and against Scottish independence or
    b) against brexit and for scottish independence.

    Which is, of course, quite a lot of people.

    And where there is cognitive dissonance, expect weird (il)logic, absurd emotionalism and general chaos and nastiness.

    That's right, just like the previous referenda. Already my FB feed is turning blue with the dribblings of all the yessers now that wee Nicola has, er, released their tension for them. About my only hope is that they simply won't be able to keep this up for as long as the referendum takes to happen: maybe gravity will eventually reassert itself over fantasy politics and they'll all collapse into a black hole of wishful thinking.

    But how can any brexiter reasonably campaign against Scottish independence? I suspect that an awful lot of them don't even want to, after all it's the Little Englanders who dominate them numerically and nurture them spiritually. And how can any Nat campaign to remain in the EU? There's supposed to be this idea that Scottish Nationalism is so very different from the English version - so liberal, international, open-minded and open-bordered - but it's not. The only reason the Nats love the EU so much is that it can be made out to be a polar opposite to England.

    So we're already winding up with a diminished UK - I'm very sure that is the inevitable consequence of brexit - and both the Little Englanders and the Little Scotlanders want to be diminished further. Meanwhile in Scotland education, health, business, everything, all suffer from second rate government that is skilled at blaming everything on Westminster but not a lot else.

    Happy days. :?

    I think you are wrong about little englanders. They see no difference between the UK and England.

    It amazes me how many people in England give a monkeys whether Scotland leaves or not.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Mr Goo wrote:
    Scottish independence can't come quick enough in my opinion.
    I want the population to know what it feels like to pay for prescriptions and eye tests. But most of all what it's like to be saddled with a student debt of £50k plus before you've even started out on your working life.
    Bl00dy disgrace.

    A remarkably bitter and twisted post - would you care to elaborate?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    Surrey Commuter wrote:

    I think you are wrong about little englanders. They see no difference between the UK and England.

    It amazes me how many people in England give a monkeys whether Scotland leaves or not.

    One of the last dominions innit?
    _
  • blim
    blim Posts: 333
    First Aspect wrote:
    This misguided, hostile, aggressive and frankly racist independence movement will end in tears.

    Please explain how the desire for Scotland to run its own affairs is racist.
    kop van de wedstrijd
  • Ben6899
    Ben6899 Posts: 9,686
    Mr Goo wrote:
    Scottish independence can't come quick enough in my opinion.
    I want the population to know what it feels like to pay for prescriptions and eye tests. But most of all what it's like to be saddled with a student debt of £50k plus before you've even started out on your working life.
    Bl00dy disgrace.

    There's the emotionalism that Bompington cites. In fact, Rick is closer with nihilism.

    How much of a sh1t hand do you perceive to have been dealt, that you think like this?
    Ben

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  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Mr Goo wrote:
    Scottish independence can't come quick enough in my opinion.
    I want the population to know what it feels like to pay for prescriptions and eye tests. But most of all what it's like to be saddled with a student debt of £50k plus before you've even started out on your working life.
    Bl00dy disgrace.

    A remarkably bitter and twisted post - would you care to elaborate?

    Student debt and the stupidly high fees are all to do with gov spending priorities and zero to do with the Scot's

    Its fair enough your angry at this but you said recently your more of a socialist? yet you wish this on your fellow man? so still a tory at heart :roll:
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,228
    Mr Goo wrote:
    Scottish independence can't come quick enough in my opinion.
    I want the population to know what it feels like to pay for prescriptions and eye tests. But most of all what it's like to be saddled with a student debt of £50k plus before you've even started out on your working life.
    Bl00dy disgrace.

    So... you want things in Scotland to be the same as they are in England. And the way to achieve that is Scottish independence?
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    Like I said, cognitive dissonance.

    Which is fancy talk for "haven't a clue but can't admit it, even to self", really.
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 16,004
    mamba80 wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Mr Goo wrote:
    Scottish independence can't come quick enough in my opinion.
    I want the population to know what it feels like to pay for prescriptions and eye tests. But most of all what it's like to be saddled with a student debt of £50k plus before you've even started out on your working life.
    Bl00dy disgrace.

    A remarkably bitter and twisted post - would you care to elaborate?

    Student debt and the stupidly high fees are all to do with gov spending priorities and zero to do with the Scot's

    Its fair enough your angry at this but you said recently your more of a socialist? yet you wish this on your fellow man? so still a tory at heart :roll:

    Au contraire.
    Goo would appear to want to harmonise conditions for all by penalising the lucky ones rather than ameliorating the lot of the others.
    A true socialist!.
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Ballysmate wrote:
    mamba80 wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Mr Goo wrote:
    Scottish independence can't come quick enough in my opinion.
    I want the population to know what it feels like to pay for prescriptions and eye tests. But most of all what it's like to be saddled with a student debt of £50k plus before you've even started out on your working life.
    Bl00dy disgrace.

    A remarkably bitter and twisted post - would you care to elaborate?

    Student debt and the stupidly high fees are all to do with gov spending priorities and zero to do with the Scot's

    Its fair enough your angry at this but you said recently your more of a socialist? yet you wish this on your fellow man? so still a tory at heart :roll:

    Au contraire.
    Goo would appear to want to harmonise conditions for all by penalising the lucky ones rather than ameliorating the lot of the others.
    A true socialist!.

    good point lol!
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    mamba80 wrote:
    Ballysmate wrote:
    mamba80 wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    Mr Goo wrote:
    Scottish independence can't come quick enough in my opinion.
    I want the population to know what it feels like to pay for prescriptions and eye tests. But most of all what it's like to be saddled with a student debt of £50k plus before you've even started out on your working life.
    Bl00dy disgrace.

    A remarkably bitter and twisted post - would you care to elaborate?

    Student debt and the stupidly high fees are all to do with gov spending priorities and zero to do with the Scot's

    Its fair enough your angry at this but you said recently your more of a socialist? yet you wish this on your fellow man? so still a tory at heart :roll:

    Au contraire.
    Goo would appear to want to harmonise conditions for all by penalising the lucky ones rather than ameliorating the lot of the others.
    A true socialist!.

    good point lol!

    and having a nonsensical plan idea on how to get there
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,397
    blim wrote:
    First Aspect wrote:
    This misguided, hostile, aggressive and frankly racist independence movement will end in tears.

    Please explain how the desire for Scotland to run its own affairs is racist.
    The tone of the last referendum debate was fairly aggressive and offensive. For example, the "they" include me, because I'm English and living here. The link between the flag and one side of the debate was also, by inference, suggesting that it is unpatriotic to vote No.

    And if you look hard enough and actually educate yourself, you'll see that for all intents and purposes, and in relation to the great majority of day-to-day issues, Scotland has been running its own affairs for quite some time. That it is failing economically and in terms of public services (crap roads, crap schools, crap hospitals and crap trains), is easy enough to attribute to "them" or "Westminster" if you are immensely gullible - but all of these are local decisions.

    Who will be to blame for being the poor neighbour of Britain and mainland European countries, in a decade's time? Of course, by then it will be too late.
  • blim
    blim Posts: 333
    if you look hard enough and actually educate yourself

    All I asked was how wanting to be independent was racist, and that makes me uneducated? Yet you complain about "aggression"...

    My wife is English, lives here, and voted Yes. At no point was she made to feel an outsider, or the Other.

    Yes, there is a hardcore of anti-English idiots but their number seems (to me anyway) far smaller than it was pre-devolution. Yes, some of the pro-independence camp's rhetoric and behaviour was aggressive (so was some of the No camp, and almost all of the pro-union/pro-Tory press), but by and large it was a movement based on inclusion and tolerance.

    None of that makes the fundamental wish to conduct your own affairs racist. Or are you Sadiq Khan?

    Scotland has been running those of its affairs that Westminster has allowed them to, since 1999. And if the Scottish government of the time is doing a bad job, then it's the Scottish government's fault.
    kop van de wedstrijd
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,397
    blim wrote:
    if you look hard enough and actually educate yourself

    All I asked was how wanting to be independent was racist, and that makes me uneducated? Yet you complain about "aggression"...

    My wife is English, lives here, and voted Yes. At no point was she made to feel an outsider, or the Other.

    Yes, there is a hardcore of anti-English idiots but their number seems (to me anyway) far smaller than it was pre-devolution. Yes, some of the pro-independence camp's rhetoric and behaviour was aggressive (so was some of the No camp, and almost all of the pro-union/pro-Tory press), but by and large it was a movement based on inclusion and tolerance.

    None of that makes the fundamental wish to conduct your own affairs racist. Or are you Sadiq Khan?

    Scotland has been running those of its affairs that Westminster has allowed them to, since 1999. And if the Scottish government of the time is doing a bad job, then it's the Scottish government's fault.
    Yeah, well, I was on the receiving end a few times I'm afraid, and there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that the Yes campaign attracted far more of the ignorant chest beaters.

    The last independence debate was not in my experience terribly informed or tolerant and the SNP were purveyors of some of the clearest lies in recent political history (the Brexit bus excepted).

    All the concerns I have are summarised in your last sentence. I'd just rather be in the biggest boat possible when the sea gets rough, rather than be part of the Kontiki expedition.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    edited March 2017
    You guys get the game that's being played right?

    Defending Brexit whilst also defending the Union is very difficult to do, because the logic that works for one by it's nature works against the other.

    So she's trying to put May into a bind. If she forces May to come out with statements about the value of union, then she and her party will look duplicitous given they'll be saying the opposite with regard to Brexit.

    It's not about the advantage or disadvantage of independence. She's a seperatist, and she wants that come what may, just like the Brexiters did.
    _
  • blim
    blim Posts: 333
    First Aspect wrote:
    blim wrote:
    if you look hard enough and actually educate yourself

    All I asked was how wanting to be independent was racist, and that makes me uneducated? Yet you complain about "aggression"...

    My wife is English, lives here, and voted Yes. At no point was she made to feel an outsider, or the Other.

    Yes, there is a hardcore of anti-English idiots but their number seems (to me anyway) far smaller than it was pre-devolution. Yes, some of the pro-independence camp's rhetoric and behaviour was aggressive (so was some of the No camp, and almost all of the pro-union/pro-Tory press), but by and large it was a movement based on inclusion and tolerance.

    None of that makes the fundamental wish to conduct your own affairs racist. Or are you Sadiq Khan?

    Scotland has been running those of its affairs that Westminster has allowed them to, since 1999. And if the Scottish government of the time is doing a bad job, then it's the Scottish government's fault.
    Yeah, well, I was on the receiving end a few times I'm afraid, and there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that the Yes campaign attracted far more of the ignorant chest beaters.

    The last independence debate was not in my experience terribly informed or tolerant and the SNP were purveyors of some of the clearest lies in recent political history (the Brexit bus excepted).

    All the concerns I have are summarised in your last sentence. I'd just rather be in the biggest boat possible when the sea gets rough, rather than be part of the Kontiki expedition.

    :) Fair enough. I suspect we may just have to agree to disagree. Sorry to hear that you were on the receiving end; there's no excuse for that sort of behaviour.
    kop van de wedstrijd
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    blim wrote:
    by and large it was a movement based on inclusion and tolerance.
    I'm not sure that it's quite correct to call the Nats racist. But "inclusion and tolerance"? Only in the sense that one-party states like to tell everyone that you don't need to join another party, ours is the only one you need.
  • blim
    blim Posts: 333
    5 different parties have seats in Holyrood. Not sure how c50% of the vote means a "one-party state"
    kop van de wedstrijd
  • blim
    blim Posts: 333
    And it was inclusive on the basis that if you lived in Scotland, you got a vote in the referendum. Contrast that with the EU referendum, where the same EU nationals whose rights have been sold down the river by Tory MPs, were denied a vote.
    kop van de wedstrijd
  • apreading
    apreading Posts: 4,535
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Defending Brexit whilst also defending the Union is very difficult to do, because the logic that works for one by it's nature works against the other.

    Not at all.

    Whether or not Scotland is better as part of the UK or independant is an entirely different assessment to whether or not the UK is better as part of the EU or not.

    If you purely think from non-factual, emotional only perspective then maybe, just maybe your sentence works. But there is alot more to the properly informed decision than that - there are a whole host of political and economic arguements and those arguements are hugely different for indyref compared to brexit.

    Besides, the argument that Scotland shold be independant if they have a different view on one single or even several subjects to the rest of the UK is the same as the argument that Edinburgh and Glasgow should be independant of each other based on how little they usually agree with each other. Lets make every constituency an independant fiefdom while we are at it, shall we?

    I am not against the vote - scotland had the vote and decided. And as far as I can tell there would be less support and less reason for independance now from the Scottish people's perspective because their main source of income to maybe balance the books (oil) has died and doesnt look like coming back any time soon.
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    blim wrote:
    5 different parties have seats in Holyrood. Not sure how c50% of the vote means a "one-party state"
    Of course it's not a one-party state in the sense of a political structure. It's the mentality - the (mostly) unspoken message that if you're for Scotland then you must be for the SNP and for independence. Or its converse, that if you're not pro-Nat you must be anti-Scotland, therefore a traitor. And yes, that's a word I saw and heard a lot during the last referendum.
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    blim wrote:
    And it was inclusive on the basis that if you lived in Scotland, you got a vote in the referendum. Contrast that with the EU referendum, where the same EU nationals whose rights have been sold down the river by Tory MPs, were denied a vote.
    There's going to be a lot of whataboutery, isn't there? So I'll add a bit more and point out that Scots living (even temporarily) outside Scotland were denied a vote in the last ref. I'm sure it's just coincidental that this group was strongly anti-independence in polls.

    But "the EU referendum was a total horlicks so you can't criticise a Scottish one".... :?

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