Scottish Referendum - Part Deux
Comments
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If the Scottish electorate knew this they might be tempted to vote leaveGarry H wrote:Stevo 666 wrote:
To put it bluntly, Scotland is not viable as an independent nation. No currency of their own and pretty much unable to fund themselves from the get go.
I think most Scots are intelligent enough to realise this. That said, TM should at the very leasttell Sturgeon to take a hike until after Brexit is sorted. And given that the 2014 Indyref was presented as a once in a lifetime opportunity for Scottish independence, it would be quite fitting if she waited considerably longer.
This, in a nutshell. Would also lead to a 'brain drain' , beginning with me
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Its not a ruse. Remember what the "N" stands for in SNP. At any cost.Rick Chasey wrote:Surrey Commuter wrote:Now suggestions she will go for EFTA - smart move
Exactly.
It's all a ruse to put May in a bind.0 -
Can i be pedantic here? Sturgeon has never been an MP. She's an MSP or member of the Scottish parliament.
As such the parliament of the union should vote as a whole on offering the Nats a referendum. Use democracy as a big FU to her so TM is taken out of the political grandstanding that's the SNP way. Since they're so full of democratic sensibilities a vote by a body that they have a decent sized interest in, 8.6% of them, should shut them up for a while. It would take the focus off TM and her government for awhile i think. Plus you'd get salmond grandstanding while his leader in Westminster looks a minor bit player he is.0 -
For a country who professes not to care if the Scots stay or leave there's a tremendous amount of vitriol towards them from certain English quarters.
Although I'm pleased to see that some recognise that parliament having the right to decide has returned to being 'democracy' and stopped being 'an attempt to undermine the will of the people'.0 -
First Aspect wrote:
Its not a ruse. Remember what the "N" stands for in SNP. At any cost.Rick Chasey wrote:Surrey Commuter wrote:Now suggestions she will go for EFTA - smart move
Exactly.
It's all a ruse to put May in a bind.
Ja duh, and given a referendum happened 2 years ago, what else can she do?
The timing isn't coincidental. The phrasing isn't coincidental.0 -
The trouble here is that you're not thinking with Nat logic. What on earth makes you think that they really care about democratic sensibilities?Tangled Metal wrote:Since they're so full of democratic sensibilities a vote by a body that they have a decent sized interest in, 8.6% of them, should shut them up for a while.
The tactic - the only tactic - is to make it look like Scotland is suffering under the jackboot of the big bad Tory Westmonster fascists. In this light, anything that can be made to look like London dictating to Scotland can be fed into the fine-tuned nationalist grievance machine.0 -
bompington wrote:
The trouble here is that you're not thinking with Nat logic. What on earth makes you think that they really care about democratic sensibilities?Tangled Metal wrote:Since they're so full of democratic sensibilities a vote by a body that they have a decent sized interest in, 8.6% of them, should shut them up for a while.
The tactic - the only tactic - is to make it look like Scotland is suffering under the jackboot of the big bad Tory Westmonster fascists. In this light, anything that can be made to look like London dictating to Scotland can be fed into the fine-tuned nationalist grievance machine.
they are very good at what they do0 -
True dat. But there are just a few encouraging signs that people here are starting to see through it - they have managed to keep the focus off their poor record in government quite well with all this, but it's starting to show. The scary level of party discipline (it's literally against the rules for members to disagree with any SNP policy, and the wider Nat community really struggles with differing viewpoints - see my comments upthread about one-party states) has held up so far, but I think it my be cracking. Sturgeon's popularity (beyond the faithful core) has always been based on a far more pleasant manner than Salmond, but her blatant grievance-mongering manipulativeness and lack of actual policy success mean that her ratings have been sliding for a while - which does stir up the unpleasant thought that he's been lurking in a most Farage-like manner...Surrey Commuter wrote:bompington wrote:
The trouble here is that you're not thinking with Nat logic. What on earth makes you think that they really care about democratic sensibilities?Tangled Metal wrote:Since they're so full of democratic sensibilities a vote by a body that they have a decent sized interest in, 8.6% of them, should shut them up for a while.
The tactic - the only tactic - is to make it look like Scotland is suffering under the jackboot of the big bad Tory Westmonster fascists. In this light, anything that can be made to look like London dictating to Scotland can be fed into the fine-tuned nationalist grievance machine.
they are very good at what they do0 -
Surrey Commuter wrote:Now suggestions she will go for EFTA - smart move
Or a tacit admission that the oft repeated claim that Scotland would continue to be a member of the EU as utter bollox.0 -
bompington wrote:
True dat. But there are just a few encouraging signs that people here are starting to see through it - they have managed to keep the focus off their poor record in government quite well with all this, but it's starting to show. The scary level of party discipline (it's literally against the rules for members to disagree with any SNP policy, and the wider Nat community really struggles with differing viewpoints - see my comments upthread about one-party states) has held up so far, but I think it my be cracking. Sturgeon's popularity (beyond the faithful core) has always been based on a far more pleasant manner than Salmond, but her blatant grievance-mongering manipulativeness and lack of actual policy success mean that her ratings have been sliding for a while - which does stir up the unpleasant thought that he's been lurking in a most Farage-like manner...Surrey Commuter wrote:bompington wrote:
The trouble here is that you're not thinking with Nat logic. What on earth makes you think that they really care about democratic sensibilities?Tangled Metal wrote:Since they're so full of democratic sensibilities a vote by a body that they have a decent sized interest in, 8.6% of them, should shut them up for a while.
The tactic - the only tactic - is to make it look like Scotland is suffering under the jackboot of the big bad Tory Westmonster fascists. In this light, anything that can be made to look like London dictating to Scotland can be fed into the fine-tuned nationalist grievance machine.
they are very good at what they do
that plus they seem far smarter than their Westminster counterparts. Even if they don't get the referendum or win it they will get a load of concessions.0 -
Ballysmate wrote:Surrey Commuter wrote:Now suggestions she will go for EFTA - smart move
Or a tacit admission that the oft repeated claim that Scotland would continue to be a member of the EU as utter bollox.
Just one of the many examples but as Brexit proved it does not matter.
EFTA broadens the church - it is a clever move.0 -
Surrey Commuter wrote:Ballysmate wrote:Surrey Commuter wrote:Now suggestions she will go for EFTA - smart move
Or a tacit admission that the oft repeated claim that Scotland would continue to be a member of the EU as utter bollox.
Just one of the many examples but as Brexit proved it does not matter.
EFTA broadens the church - it is a clever move.
and to Rick's point it will tie TM in knots trying to oppose it whilst justifying hard Brexit0 -
Milton50 wrote:If I was Scottish then back in 2014 I would have voted for independence, and I was surprised when they didn't.
However, the case for independence this time round is much weaker I would suggest. For one, applying to join the EU means accepting the Euro, fairly strict fiscal rules and will take years to complete (even if the EU fast track the application as a kind of two-fingers up to the UK). In fact there is a train of thought that Spain would veto the accession. So for some considerable time Scotland would be out of the UK and out of the EU which seems to be the worst of both worlds.
How is any of that different from 2014?0 -
To join EFTA, Scotland would have to be a functioning independent state and get approval of all member states.
Step forward Spain (Again)
Nicky the Fish can state it as an aim, but a big gamble if the Scots back her.0 -
It doesn't take much to look at the SNPs recent history to see that they have never had any interest in the practical consequences of independence. They only care about the ideal of an independent nation and not about the people that live within in it. Like all nationalist parties the SNP define themselves against hostile 'others'. In the case of the SNP it is always England.
The SNP like to present themselves as representing a new type of politics and one for their people. They promise everything to everyone, but it's an empty shell when it comes down to detailed policies and where the money is going to come from to pay for everything.Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.0 -
Don't care if they leave? I think the issue isn't that England (no more a single entity than Scotland is) doesn't care it's more that we're fed up with the whole Scottish nationalism. There was a vote, decision made. Should have settled it for a political generation.narbs wrote:For a country who professes not to care if the Scots stay or leave there's a tremendous amount of vitriol towards them from certain English quarters.
Although I'm pleased to see that some recognise that parliament having the right to decide has returned to being 'democracy' and stopped being 'an attempt to undermine the will of the people'.
Add in the fact Scottish politicians keep asking for more powers to be handed over but they complain in Westminster if any English politician talks about a small bit of devolution.
It's probably not vitriol for most English just being fed up with the Scottish obsession. Some English, Welsh, northern Irish and Scottish people probably do hold vitriolic views on independence but that's not the collective or majority view. Just like independence isn't the majority view in Scotland. 0 -
Am I alone in thinking that TM is simply biding her time until polls suggest that the SNP has so p*ssed of the rest of the UK that agreeing to a referendum would be considered the "right thing to do" for the rest of the UK? Electoral maths in the UK make it obvious that the Tories would favour getting rid of Scotland forever, so long as this isn't perceived by floating voters as being purely for electoral advantage.0
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Ballysmate wrote:To join EFTA, Scotland would have to be a functioning independent state and get approval of all member states.
Step forward Spain (Again)
Nicky the Fish can state it as an aim, but a big gamble if the Scots back her.
My understanding was that you could join EFTA with just the other members agreement. EEA membership would need agreement from all others including Spain0 -
Mr Goo wrote:It doesn't take much to look at the SNPs recent history to see that they have never had any interest in the practical consequences of independence. They only care about the ideal of an independent nation and not about the people that live within in it. Like all nationalist parties the SNP define themselves against hostile 'others'. In the case of the SNP it is always England.
The SNP like to present themselves as representing a new type of politics and one for their people. They promise everything to everyone, but it's an empty shell when it comes down to detailed policies and where the money is going to come from to pay for everything.
my apologies if I have missed the joke whooshing over - this is Rick's point about TM making the argument
doesn't take much to look at Brexiteers recent history to see that they have never had any interest in the practical consequences of independence. They only care about the ideal of an independent nation and not about the people that live within in it. Like all nationalist parties UKIP define themselves against hostile 'others'. In the case of UKIP it is always The EU.
Brexiteers like to present themselves as representing a new type of politics and one for their people. They promise everything to everyone, but it's an empty shell when it comes down to detailed policies and where the money is going to come from to pay for everything.0 -
Wallace and Gromit wrote:Am I alone in thinking that TM is simply biding her time until polls suggest that the SNP has so p*ssed of the rest of the UK that agreeing to a referendum would be considered the "right thing to do" for the rest of the UK? Electoral maths in the UK make it obvious that the Tories would favour getting rid of Scotland forever, so long as this isn't perceived by floating voters as being purely for electoral advantage.
yes.
Ideally she would never agree to a referendum with next best option being as far in the future as possible. The downside of pursuing this policy is that it risks stoking up the nationalist fires and losing the referendum.
If she refuses a legally binding referendum Sturgeon could call an advisory one. If she wins that imagine the bleating about the will of the people etc...
You have to accept that the Scots are much better at this kind of thing than the clowns in Westminster0 -
SNP - broad spectrum of political colours united under scotish nationalism, requires you to be a deft political leader just to keep the thing together.
Is therefore a decent breeding ground for politicians.
Conversely, Labour's reliance on seats that would vote in a mop if it was the Labour candidate breeds weak leaders.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:SNP - broad spectrum of political colours united under scotish nationalism, requires you to be a deft political leader just to keep the thing together.
Is therefore a decent breeding ground for politicians.
Conversely, Labour's reliance on seats that would vote in a mop if it was the Labour candidate breeds weak leaders.
not just Labour - a lot of Tory seats would elect a wheelie bin with a blue rosette
I am starting to feel a bit sorry for David Davis - he should be somebody's grandfather doing a couple of sh1te magic tricks before falling asleep in his favourite chair. The sheer impossibility of the task seems to be dawning on him and he looks close to giving up - he seems to care a lot less than he did.0 -
Surrey Commuter wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:SNP - broad spectrum of political colours united under scotish nationalism, requires you to be a deft political leader just to keep the thing together.
Is therefore a decent breeding ground for politicians.
Conversely, Labour's reliance on seats that would vote in a mop if it was the Labour candidate breeds weak leaders.
not just Labour - a lot of Tory seats would elect a wheelie bin with a blue rosette
I am starting to feel a bit sorry for David Davis - he should be somebody's grandfather doing a couple of sh1te magic tricks before falling asleep in his favourite chair. The sheer impossibility of the task seems to be dawning on him and he looks close to giving up - he seems to care a lot less than he did.
Never meet your heroes etc (in this case, his hero being Brexit).0 -
A double blow for Wee Jimmy Krankie:
Record levels of Euroscepticism in Scotland:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/15/nicola-sturgeon-abandons-bid-remain-eu-poll-shows-record-level/
While 57% back the union:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/15/charts-show-scotland-thinks-sturgeons-plans-independence-as57/
Clearly two different sets of issues in the minds of the Scots."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
If there is another referendum and a fairly clear win for the 'no' vote would that finish the SNP?0
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Pross wrote:If there is another referendum and a fairly clear win for the 'no' vote would that finish the SNP?
I think "finish" is too strong a word. I think they've clearly peaked though, but I think they'll remain the most popular party in Scotland for a few years yet. Losing another Indy Ref would ruin the zeitgeist, but they can then all sit back and reminisce about the good auld days of the first ref and the 2015 GE.
I only know one person that voted Yes first time and he's English.0 -
Surrey Commuter wrote:The downside of pursuing this policy is that it risks stoking up the nationalist fires and losing the referendum.
You seem to be assuming that losing Scotland would be bad for the Tories. My point was that it's questionable as to whether there would be downsides for TM if Scotland became independent, so long as the nebulous concept of "preserving the union" had ceased to be of value south of the border. In terms of Westminster seats, letting Scotland go is a no-brainer for the Tories, but until recently the generally held view was that the governing party would suffer heavy electoral damage at the next election had it "lost" Scotland. But if the generally held view is now that independence is seen as inevitable (*) then the governing party would simply be seen as "letting Scotland go" or "observing the will of the people" with no electoral damage. So if the Tories don't lose support (**) from Scotland going independent and lose 50+ non-Tory seats in perpetuity then what's not to like from their perspective?
(*) It may not be, but who is going to campaign for the union in a future referendum? And the SNP may be not very good at the job they are elected to do in Scotland, but they are very good at winning elections.
(**) Maybe there is strong support for the union simply for the sake of it. "Taking back control" is a fairly nebulous concept too, and that seemed quite popular last year.0 -
Wallace and Gromit wrote:Surrey Commuter wrote:The downside of pursuing this policy is that it risks stoking up the nationalist fires and losing the referendum.
You seem to be assuming that losing Scotland would be bad for the Tories. My point was that it's questionable as to whether there would be downsides for TM if Scotland became independent, so long as the nebulous concept of "preserving the union" had ceased to be of value south of the border. In terms of Westminster seats, letting Scotland go is a no-brainer for the Tories, but until recently the generally held view was that the governing party would suffer heavy electoral damage at the next election had it "lost" Scotland. But if the generally held view is now that independence is seen as inevitable (*) then the governing party would simply be seen as "letting Scotland go" or "observing the will of the people" with no electoral damage. So if the Tories don't lose support (**) from Scotland going independent and lose 50+ non-Tory seats in perpetuity then what's not to like from their perspective?
(*) It may not be, but who is going to campaign for the union in a future referendum? And the SNP may be not very good at the job they are elected to do in Scotland, but they are very good at winning elections.
(**) Maybe there is strong support for the union simply for the sake of it. "Taking back control" is a fairly nebulous concept too, and that seemed quite popular last year.
I find it helps if you imagine the power behind the Tory throne is populated by people who are still ridden with angst about the Corn Laws. To these people nothing matters more than "punching above our weight", "special relationship" , "monarchy" and the Union is very precious to them in a way that far exceeds electoral mathematics.
In other words the swivel eyed loons will never let TM wave goodbye to the jocks. Now as Rick keeps saying the swivel eyed loons will not not let TM back down from hard Brexit.
You do not have to agree with or like the SNP Leadership but you have to admire their guile.0 -
As an English male what do I lose out on if Scotland leave the UK.
Surely we will save money in the long run..........
Why do we have to fight a stay campaign?
Am I being naive? What don't I understand?
Nice simple concepts please.0 -
SoloSuperia wrote:As an English male what do I lose out on if Scotland leave the UK.
Surely we will save money in the long run..........
Why do we have to fight a stay campaign?
Am I being naive? What don't I understand?
Nice simple concepts please.
I agree with you but to the occupants of the Westminster bubble the "Union" is like a holy grail0
