The spirit of the rules for recreational riders

burnthesheep

The "who buy's this stuff" topic made me think of this:

When does a recreational or amateur rider become a cheat?

For golf, all players follow the PGA of America or R&A rule sets. Cycling is odd, weird. It seems that non-pros do not obligate themselves to a rule set. But some do. It makes sense when you don't compete to not care about the UCI. But......if you ride in a local fun race or you try to get into the best 10 on a Strava route.......isn't that competition?

So, when does a non-pro rider become a cheat?
-doping?
-e-bike or mechanical doping?
-bike weight under the UCI limit?
-non-UCI approved bike (Ironman bike)?
-cutting corners on the segment through the dirt to cut seconds on for the KOM?
-following a friend in a car for the drafting effect?

The other question: who cares? Why does it matter?

To me it matters that the sport I participate in has some kind of agreed upon rules or best practices. There is no game or sport without rules.

I just feel there must be some logical point where you would draw the line and refuse to ride with a mate or friend due to their glaring ignorance.

simon_masterson

Seriously?

I get why some riders behave like morons at sportives because they're too cowardly/not good enough to enter real races, but really, who cares? And who on earth makes sure their bike is UCI compliant?

burnthesheep

Yes, seriously...... Not for the guy riding to the pub. But for the large majority of us checking out Strava times or doing similar. And yes sir, I play my golf ball "down" and no mulligans.

The topic of "who buys this stuff" was something along the lines of $200 water bottle cages that weigh next to nothing. I didn't see the point since if you have that much money you can afford a bike frame lighter than the UCI limit.

I guess it isn't to the letter of every rule they make, that's totally impractical to most. I don't think the UCI would allow my saddle bag full of tools or my front light.

I fully see the "who cares" side of the argument. But, those that don't care, are they participants in the sport then?

If you take a free shot on every golf hole, have a bag full of 30 clubs, and use an illegal driver to hit the ball 400 yards..........that's not exactly golf. That's some game you invented that is based on golf. In both that game and in cycling you can try to "better" yourself. You can play against par on the course or you can see how well you can ride your bike up that steep hill or mountain.

Take away some of the more important equipment rules from cycling and you simply have someone on the way to the pub or on the way to work. And that is good.

So I guess the answer becomes: once the element of competition is introduced.

But, this argument didn't exist really before Strava (or similar services). Before, you either went to a competition or you didn't. Strava made it possible to compete with the whole world on most any route in the world.

There's a topic on the forum about "your best time on Box Hill". That doesn't matter a hill of beans if you take an e-bike or motor bike up the path.

And if we don't care about it, then why do we log our times and then go on the site to see how we did?

Why keep score?

Matthewfalle

Seriously?

Garry H

Matthewfalle wrote:

Seriously?

Apparently so...

simon_masterson

burnthesheep wrote:

Yes, seriously...... Not for the guy riding to the pub. But for the large majority of us checking out Strava times or doing similar. And yes sir, I play my golf ball "down" and no mulligans.

The topic of "who buys this stuff" was something along the lines of $200 water bottle cages that weigh next to nothing. I didn't see the point since if you have that much money you can afford a bike frame lighter than the UCI limit.

I guess it isn't to the letter of every rule they make, that's totally impractical to most. I don't think the UCI would allow my saddle bag full of tools or my front light.

I fully see the "who cares" side of the argument. But, those that don't care, are they participants in the sport then?

If you take a free shot on every golf hole, have a bag full of 30 clubs, and use an illegal driver to hit the ball 400 yards..........that's not exactly golf. That's some game you invented that is based on golf. In both that game and in cycling you can try to "better" yourself. You can play against par on the course or you can see how well you can ride your bike up that steep hill or mountain.

Take away some of the more important equipment rules from cycling and you simply have someone on the way to the pub or on the way to work. And that is good.

So I guess the answer becomes: once the element of competition is introduced.

But, this argument didn't exist really before Strava (or similar services). Before, you either went to a competition or you didn't. Strava made it possible to compete with the whole world on most any route in the world.

There's a topic on the forum about "your best time on Box Hill". That doesn't matter a hill of beans if you take an e-bike or motor bike up the path.

And if we don't care about it, then why do we log our times and then go on the site to see how we did?

Why keep score?

If you own a bicycle and you enjoy riding it, you are a 'participant'. If people are to be excluded on the basis of 'rules', then 'rules' have to be regulated and enforced by a regulatory body, so that rules out cyclists that don't race. There's no difference between what you do and riding to the pub.

Seriously, no-one cares. Just ride your bike.

Matthewfalle

Garry H wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

Seriously?

Apparently so...

Sheeeeeesh. So he is serious.

Do you reckon he's in a club?

Garry H

Matthewfalle wrote:

Garry H wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

Seriously?

Apparently so...

Sheeeeeesh. So he is serious.

Do you reckon he's in a club?

If not, he needs to be!

rubertoe

Simon Masterson wrote:

Seriously?

I get why some riders behave like morons at sportives because they're too cowardly/not good enough to enter real races, but really, who cares? And who on earth makes sure their bike is UCI compliant?

mine is.....

burnthesheep

No club. Nothing. And yes, my ride does have the label on it. It wasn't for "status" or "bling". I just considered that if I wanted to ride in some kind of timed thing someday it may be required.

I've ridden for about a year now and this topic came up. Coming from other sports to join into riding I was quite surprised that the opinion was quite the opposite. I was aware that some take offense to certain things. I didn't know if this extends to rules for someone who considers it more "sport" than "leisure".

I come from playing sports where even recreational folks don't really bend the rules.

Being new, I guess I didn't understand the difference and proceeded with what I know.

In golf you have to actively seek out equipment that doesn't conform and then there is usually some kind of sticker or advertisement saying that it doesn't. Most all equipment you can buy already does conform.

I'm incredulous at the responses above because it's just not what I'm used to. Like leaving a cave for the daylight.

If that's how it is, so be it. Something new to get used to.

simon_masterson

rubertoe wrote:

Simon Masterson wrote:

Seriously?

I get why some riders behave like morons at sportives because they're too cowardly/not good enough to enter real races, but really, who cares? And who on earth makes sure their bike is UCI compliant?

mine is.....

The mudguards especially.

rubertoe

Simon Masterson wrote:

rubertoe wrote:

Simon Masterson wrote:

Seriously?

I get why some riders behave like morons at sportives because they're too cowardly/not good enough to enter real races, but really, who cares? And who on earth makes sure their bike is UCI compliant?

mine is.....

The mudguards especially.

That s just a practical addition. Like the lights, the saddle pack and the massively overweight rider.

fudgey

I don't play golf.
I just ride my bike, and the only person I am in competition with on Strava is..... Myself.

jgsi

You race, you is in a sport...
you just ride your bike, you is just riding your bike.
the word 'cheat'' is absolutely meaningless, so perhaps your destiny is to go Zwifting and have a right old whingefest about their 'racing' rules and cheats... other than that, leave it out mate, no one cares.

Garry H

And anybody that does care already has a perfectly good, structured environment to test themselves in - Racing (For real, outdoors, on roads, mano a mano so to speak) Anything else is just pretending.

cougie

Strava is for everyone but it's not a real competition. If you want to race try time trials or Road racing.

Strava can't tell what bike you're on or whose wheel you're sitting on or how strong the tail wind is. Dont kid yourself its fair. Its not meant to be.

stevie63

Surely though if we're comparing cycling to playing golf, then what most recreational cyclists are doing is the equivalent of knocking a few balls down the driving range or taking a couple of clubs and a few balls down to the local common.

The golf analogy only works for those that are competing and then there are rules.

pblakeney

I gave up when someone took my KOM up a 1 mile climb. His average speed? 40mph.
I now simply ride my bike for enjoyment and laugh at those training for a sub 25 minute 10.

fat daddy

golf is a game ..... by its very nature it has rules .. like monopoly, poker, darts .... sure you can have variations on the game, and if you are playing other people. generally speaking you all play the "same" game defined by those rules.

But general cycling, there are only the rule that YOU make up you cant expect other people to abide by them as (1) they don't know what thet rules are (2) they don't really want to play with you

Strava doesn't distinguish between weather, group rides, bike weight .. its just a tool for loging your data and you can apply what ever rules you want to it, but again don't expect others to guess what your rules are or to agree with them.

I am sure my rules on a ride differ from yours .. hell I use auto pause as I prefer to figure out my time to work without working out if I was sat for 3 mins longer at traffic lights

debeli

Cycling as golf? Golf as football?

There is a lot of malarkey going on and some of it is on the slightly rum side of dodgy....

I am a cyclist. I was a rower and a runner in my far-off distant youth... and a cyclist too.

I like chalk for writing on slate and I like cheese for eating with chutney. I am not sure I can make a valid comparison between the two.

As a cyclist, I can pop to the shops or nip round to see a friend or go to an appointment with my GP or dentist. I am not sure I could use golf clubs or a sculling boat the same way.

However, as a cyclist I can also join a club and enter the odd TT or hill-climb. People take it seriously. People are competitive. Nobody rules this or that bike out for infringements real or imagined. Some people use £5000 TT whizz-bangs and some people use nice, steel road bikes.... Some even give it a go on old shopping hacks. Everyone is nice to everyone.

Similarly in MTB endures and similar, the range of equipment is vast and people tend to be nice, friendly and accommodating.

I have never done a Sportif or similar. They sound like fun, but perhaps not my kind of fun. People I know who have the 'bug' for Sportifs tend to be of a certain age, a certain income bracket a certain perception of their own social status and have often gone in under ten years (maybe fifteen) from not wanting to be seen dead on a bicycle to having disturbingly erotic fantasies about a new wheel set.

I have never been fast - and with increasing age I become ever more unfast. I can live with that.

I would advise the OP not to over-think these things and not to worry too much about who runs what in which event and whether it is isn't or shouldn't be legal.

I still love to follow the pro-peloton, but I am under no illusion now (and never was) that things are done cleanly or legally at the top of the sport. I love it nonetheless. I also like to dabble in club-level TTs and so on. I care that the other competitors are friendly and helpful. I care not one jot if they have an electric motor in their seat tube.

I hope I have helped but I fear that perhaps I have not.

cooldad

I stopped reading at golf.

Matthewfalle

Thinking about it, golfers are a funny bunch really aren't they? Don't get me wrong, I see lots of correlations between golfers and club cyclists, but they are right funny bunch.

burnthesheep

fat daddy wrote:

But general cycling, there are only the rule that YOU make up you cant expect other people to abide by them as (1) they don't know what thet rules are (2) they don't really want to play with you

Cheers. Thanks for the response. I think this sums it up well for me.

When I started I didn't want to offend anyone or do anything dodgy if I was going to ride in a group or with others that take it more seriously. It's good to know it's not that bad.

Time to carry on, and have fun.

Also, for what it's worth, a sub 25 minute 10 miler sounds like a worthy next goal.

kingstongraham

Matthewfalle wrote:

Thinking about it, golfers are a funny bunch really aren't they? Don't get me wrong, I see lots of correlations between golfers and club cyclists, but they are right funny bunch.

Yes, I think where the OP goes wrong is making the assumption that golfers have got it right. If they just hit the ball and didn't worry so much, they might be happier. It goes in a bush? Who cares, just bung another one on the ground and hit that one.

Probably like pros do when they are on practice rounds.

janwal

Golfers are weird,they wear really outlandish multi coloured clothes!

fat daddy

Stupid looking shoes as well

lettingthedaysgoby

My god some people take Strava way too seriously.

It's not important. Get on a bike - any bike, and ride it. Job done.

john1967

PBlakeney wrote:

I gave up when someone took my KOM up a 1 mile climb. His average speed? 40mph.
I now simply ride my bike for enjoyment and laugh at those training for a sub 25 minute 10.

whats remotely funny at someone training to try and improve themselves ?

ben@31

and use an illegal driver to hit the ball 400 yards........

Just out of interest, cough cough, Where would you get one of these drivers from

Regards,
Someone who cant hit a ball far when teeing off.

fudgey

I got a (joint) KOM of the year today on a rather small 49s bump on my lunchtime loop. (130th overall)

I do have one other KOM (also joint meh) but its from the road outside my work, so not that many people have done it.

HTH

mike1-2

Burnthesheep I think I've worked out your problem. It's er, well it's you. Jesus, who has time to worry about stuff like that?