Newbie using power meter - advice on making sense of the numbers

new2br

Hi,

For a long while I've been curious to know the actual facts and figures of my training efforts so a few months ago I finally succumbed to temptation and got myself a power meter. The initial training benefit of simply trying to beat my last power scores have long since levelled off (the Xmas break/overindulgence and all the crap weather recently which has reduce my riding time hasn't helped) but I thought at this stage I should try and get better informed on how to use the information the powermeter is telling me. I have read and watched loads of stuff around the subject but they haven't really answered the questions I have.

So a few queries, in no particular order..
1. I've still to do a 'formal' 20min ftp test - which I know is prob the first thing I should have done. However I do have and use the calculated FTP score derrived from the likes of strava premium and training peaks registrations where the best 20min power (and other breakdowns) of my usual training rides ranging from 1.5-3/4hr rides are provided. Is it accurate enough to use these calculated efforts for FTP.
2. My issue with actually doing a proper 20min test is I can't think of any suitable stretch of road near me that would enable an accurate test - I believe an uninterrupted false flat/ slight gradient % is ideal - but all my 'flat' rides are actually quite undulating and hills are either too short or too steep so my power figures seem to fluctuate quite a lot. Is a 'formal' FTP test only valid if done under the correct conditions/terrain - I'm guessing it would be valid for comparison with itself on future similar retests but was more concerned if the actual FTP figure wasn't that accurate then any FTP base zone training would not correspond to what the body was actually capable of making it pretty pointless.
3. Following on from last point - I'm aware it's pretty common to have relatively low power output on any downhill sections (even if pushing biggest gear at high cadence) - which is indeed what I find. On the flip side i also can sustain much higher power output on steady inclines well above my notional FTP relative to my heart rate/perceived effort. So currently my FTP based on best 20min efforts on training rides on variable terrain is anywhere from 240-290 ( the higher end being usually where there was a bit of a hill/incline in the 20min effort) - but I know on sections of false flat which would be ideal road for doing FTP test if long enough, I can ride feeling comfortable between 350-400 watts which I think I could def sustain for the 20min test based on my heart rate zone. So basically I thinking have a disjoint between my heart rate zone and FTP training zones and I think it would be very difficult for me to ride strictly to FTP zone as per what many of the structured training plans I've seen suggest. So for example if I was on a false flat section of road if I had to ride in endurance/tempo zone based on FTP I would feel I wasn't putting any effort in at all and heart rate would fall probably to a zone below corresponding FTP one. And conversely trying to spin up a big gear on a decline to raise a relatively low power figure/zone can increase heart rate/ perceived effort disproportionately. Basically what I'm wondering is if following any structured training how important is it to stick to the power zones being worked on in a particular session or how much should you just be riding on feel.

Am asking this now as my main aim this year is to try and get a pb in a longish sportive event this year - was thinking training with power could be the answer to get most value out of limited training time by following a structured training plan, just needing a bit more confidence in following the numbers correctly if focusing on FTP zones rather than perceived effort.

Apologies that turned out a bit of a longer ramble that intended! Even if my questions can't be answered directly, any advice on making best use of power figures/zones esp while out riding on the road would be much appreciated.

Cheers...

cougie

Buy a turbo. That's most efficient use of your training time that you say is an issue.

It will also let you do the ftp test.

It will also let you ride in crappy weather.

Much better VFM than a power meter i reckon.

stevenmew

Yeah I would get a turbo trainer as well if you don't have the stretch of road around you for an ftp test. Get a cheap second hand 'dumb' trainer and you can do the ftp test no problem. Comparing HR and power is a nice thing to do when you're really up and running but doesn't have much bearing on your training per se, one is how much work you're doing and the other is how your body is reacting to that work. Have a double espresso before going out and you'll see your HR spike but won't be putting out world tour power numbers.

Spending the 20 odd quid for either Joe Friel's training bible or Hunter Allen's Training with a Power Meter is a worthwhile investment to get to grips with what all your power numbers mean and what you should be doing.

new2br

Thanks for the feedback guys...

Yip a turbo is a possibility I have been considering. Infact I dusted off the old one I already have which is currently being used as a bike stand, to try and do a session last week when (storm) Dorris was in town. However that experience put me off the notion somewhat - was setting up with plan to do an FTP test but quickly found the power wouldnt be accurate as I could feel the rear wheel slip on the roller esp at increased resistance (power was dropping/fluctuating concurrently) - so either lack of traction at back wheel or the turbo just knackered. I suspected the latter so aborted the session.

I'm not ruling out buying a replacement - but my environment atm isnt that appealing really - my bike/turbo is set up in the only space available - the corner of an already over cluttered garage. So faced with that prospect as my training environment, I thought last week given the choice I'd opt for a rest day/swim/spin class rather than that. And in general I'd take going out on the road any day over my current indoor setup, even if it meant not getting the best possible workout in the time.

If I got space (we are thinking of house extension) I would love a wee room for a proper 'smart' indoor trainer setup as I do enjoy the spin classes I go to and think the social/competitive aspect of the likes of swift would provide the motivation and overcome the monotony of my current setup.

Apologies if what I've said sort of negates my original post - it my have come across that I was focused solely on getting best workout possible each and every time due to time constaints. My real priority is more to enjoy my bike out on the road - getting away from the house in the fresh air is part of the pleasure. Although I'm not a competitive racer (and too old with too many old injuries to plan to be) but probably having played sport all my life its just happens to be that I'm a competitive person (with myself) and hoping that better use of my power meter in tandem with a bit more structured training might bring better improvements for those times spent out on the road.

#stevenmew I'm sure the books you refer to would do exactly that so might try and get a copy ...

Cheers guys...

fenix

What turbo do you have ? It's most likely you just need to set it up right rather that it being a defective one...

My turbo dungeon is very cluttered - but so long as there's space for the bike, turbo, fan, ipad then you're good to go. You need to man up if you want to improve.

Without that initial FTP test you've wasted money on the powermeter. You need to know what you're doing. The estimates on strava are bobbins.

Indoor training will be much more effective than pootling around on the road - but you still need the pootling to build endurance and keep your skills up.

It does kind of read like you've bought the kit, but you're reluctant to do the hard work to make it all tick ?

Vslowpace

If it was me and I didn't have access to a turbo or a gym with suitable equipment I would look to seek out a local 10 mile TT courses as a suitable alternative. Once you have selected a loop and determined your baseline FTP you should use the same loop for any further tests.

Once you have an accurate FTP then everything else falls out of that.

I've not used Golden Cheetah, but I do use Training Peaks and for me understanding their Performance Management chart is a fundamental starting point.

new2br

Fenix wrote:

What turbo do you have ? It's most likely you just need to set it up right rather that it being a defective one...

My turbo dungeon is very cluttered - but so long as there's space for the bike, turbo, fan, ipad then you're good to go. You need to man up if you want to improve.

Without that initial FTP test you've wasted money on the powermeter. You need to know what you're doing. The estimates on strava are bobbins.

Indoor training will be much more effective than pootling around on the road - but you still need the pootling to build endurance and keep your skills up.

It does kind of read like you've bought the kit, but you're reluctant to do the hard work to make it all tick ?

Yip I know where you're coming from but..

I dont even have a stand for a laptop (ipad - I wish..) or fan - so am even worse than yours which it'd say is min requirement. I appreciate it might sound like I'm being lazy/not bothered to try sort something but believe me I have - laptop needs internet (if want to do interactive stuff) - not enough signal/wifi coverage in there (meaning wifi booster or homeplugs but garage electric is on different ring than house where I do use homepulgs for extending wifi). Then would need to trail leads for extra power for said laptop - and fan which I dont have, never mind a stand for laptop and space for both which is pretty non existant. I know it cud be done with putting in the effort trying to sort all those other issues. I can imagine I'd get it all set up and first day the wife/kids to in to garage to put a wash on or something the stand would get bumped - laptop stand fall over into fan/bike and all end up in a broken heap. Yes I am probably being a bt lazy, but was just a bit too much hassle in my opinion... :oops: :oops:

I did adjust the rear wheel tension/contact with roller which still slipped even when tyre pretty squashed onto roller. I did wonder if a turbo-specific tyre might help? - as I also wasnt overly keen wearing away my pretty expensive clincher tyre that are on the bike. But again that just bring potential additional complications/expense - buying a turbo tyre (cheap I know) but then having a spare wheel (I have one ) and cassette and having to swap the wheel over between road and turbo rides. Again all these are small/cheap things to sort but along with the other stuff above I just thought more hassle than enough. Yes again I prob am a tad lazy - if and when I get the house extended, I do intend to have a proper training room set up with a turbo/bike permenantly set up with screen/fan - just waiting for a wee lottery windfall..

Yes my main concern was/is doing wasted efforts/dead miles on those valuable road sessions. I wouldnt say I pootle around that often - 95% of the time I'm out by myself and during those times I'm pushing myself in what I'd say is pretty tough to hard sessions based on perceived effort. The remaining 5% might be a 'bun run'/recovery ride with friends. So it is really the plan to try and do a bit more structured training - its only down to what I've read that says just training flat out all the time doesnt really work after a while. TBH I can really understand that but everyone seems to subscribe to it so I thought I'd give it a go - which sort of bring me back full circle to understanding how to interpret the numbers from the power meter. I had always worked on the premis that as I ride on and mix up my routes - flatter sessions (always undulating) or incorprating hillier routes, both long and short - that if it tried my hardest (pacing myself accordingly depending on route) then this would almost reflect the training efforts in structured sessions like tempo/endurance/power since my rides incorporate element of all those things. So if you continue to push yourself as I do each time then you should improve The concept of backing off to deliberately train in a lower/more comfortable zone seems a bit strange - but will happily give it a try if the science works.

Just for clarification - the ftp calc from strava/training peaks are from the premium subscription - so its taking real measurements from actual power figures on those rides - which I believe isnt quite the same as the strava estimated power as per the strava basic subscription - so are you saying those figures are not to be relied upon either? Just curious, I know the only true measurement will be after doing a proper test, even if it means driving some distance to find a suitable stretch of road.

Cheers...

new2br

Vslowpace wrote:

If it was me and I didn't have access to a turbo or a gym with suitable equipment I would look to seek out a local 10 mile TT courses as a suitable alternative. Once you have selected a loop and determined your baseline FTP you should use the same loop for any further tests.

Once you have an accurate FTP then everything else falls out of that.

I've not used Golden Cheetah, but I do use Training Peaks and for me understanding their Performance Management chart is a fundamental starting point.

I'd previously looked up some local cycle clubs who run TT's in the area to get a few of their routes. I know the closest one is run over closed roads (and some are on some of my normal training rides). Anyway it (and others) do have some junctions/lights (and obviously traffic) so would I be right in thinking the ftp from a slightly interrupted not optimal test will possibly be slightly lower than on done in ideal conditions) - so the knock on effect is the ftp zones calculated from this will be lower (inaccurate). So was thinking the solution 'may' be to just add X number of watts to ftp to approximate what would be achieved if test was done under ideal circumstance - closed road arrow straight fal flat or whatever.

I'm not trying to just get a falsely high FTP all 'for show/boasting' purposes - incase you think I'm trying to make out I'm 'Billy big balls , all the gear no idea, and all that . Its more the fact if I do end up doing some structured training based on strictly following power zones then I need to rely 100% what its telling me is actually what my body can cope with - as I mentioned originally - sometimes my HR and perceived effort dont seem to match what the watt numbers show esp when it comes to riding long low gradient incline (suited for ftp tests) where I find doing higher wattages more comforably, usually +100-150 above what my notional ftp is telling me - so want to avoid undertraining in zones that are too low.

I'm aware I'm probably getting too hung up on this - at the end of the day I dont race so in the grand scheme of things its probabley not going to make a huge amount of difference :oops: . But i do get a bit obsessive when I start on something and the goal for the sportive in June is pushing me on...

Midlands Grimpeur

It depends how seriously you want to take things. If you really want to get the most out of a PM the best option is to speak to a coach and do some wider physiological testing so you can understand your power numbers in the context of your overall fitness and related strengths/weaknesses. I read Coggan and Friel and although I understood the basics of what they were saying it still meant very little to me specifically as I could not devise a training plan without knowing which aspects of my fitness I needed to work on and where power numbers could help.

new2br

Midlands Grimpeur wrote:

It depends how seriously you want to take things. If you really want to get the most out of a PM the best option is to speak to a coach and do some wider physiological testing so you can understand your power numbers in the context of your overall fitness and related strengths/weaknesses. I read Coggan and Friel and although I understood the basics of what they were saying it still meant very little to me specifically as I could not devise a training plan without knowing which aspects of my fitness I needed to work on and where power numbers could help.

Aye a coach would probably be a wise option to try - or alternatively I think join a club would help - I could probably get a lot of answers to most of this stuff by speaking with some of the club guys who do a bit of racing and likely know a lot of this stuff already.

Anyhow I decided on my weekly lunchtime spin (25miles undulating) - which I normally just ride at a hard yet sustainable pace - I though today I'd try and throw in some semi structured stuff. Chose to do 3 10sec sprints and a bit of intervals - 2 blocks of 7 1 minute max efforts, ie didnt really have to worry too much on power zones for those. I have to say the session felt worthwhile - it did seem to stress more of the body systems than the way I ride it normally, prob a bit like a ride i'd do with couple of hills mixed with a spin class. Although overall avg power and 20min ftp was lower - due to the recovery between intervals and after sprints, I did spend significantly more time in /above threshold zones - managed to get peak HR up by about 10beats and felt the sprints - which I never did before and were surprisingly though even only done 3.

If nothing else it's added a bit of variety to what is normally one of my dullest weekly rides. I think I could def use this session to keep up the semi structured stuff, maybe alternate short sprint/intervals with more power based/longer interval sets.next week might be a good one for a proper attempt at 20min ftp test..

Alex_Simmons/RST

There are many ways to established one's FTP, not all of them require formal testing. Turbo is good for training if you have the appropriate set up and motivation for it. However sustainable power output on a turbo often doesn't match our ability to generate and sustain power out on the open road, so it can be a bit misleading (meaning you need to adjust your expectations accordingly).

As for not knowing your FTP and power meter being a waste of money, that's nonsense. There are many ways to utilise power meter data that don't involve just the setting of training levels. In any case establishing a reasonably good FTP estimate is not that hard to do provided you have enough hard efforts in recent data. In your case with variable terrain, then Normalized Power, along with an assessment of your mean maximal power data will be a helpful guide to assessing your sustainable power capability, as well as what areas of fitness are the most important for you to work on.

As for setting of training levels, they are pretty much self regulating if you ever do any interval work. If you can repeatedly do an intervals set "easily" then the levels are too low. If you repeatedly can't get through the minimum number of efforts at the low end of a target power level, then the levels are too high. So adjust levels accordingly. Setting levels based on FTP is a starting point, but isn't an absolute necessity.

Some of your comments speak about training by power, e.g. worrying about staying "in zone". None of that is necessary, indeed may be counterproductive depending on individual circumstances. The trick is leaving old paradigms behind (e.g. what people are used to when they training by HR) and learning to train with power.

The main issue for you is determining a plan that is suitable for you, your goals, current fitness and experience level, training time availability, local environment, rest of life factors and so on, and then how the power meter and its data can help guide you through that and monitor progress. That can be challenging to get right although the fundamental principles are relatively straightforward. if you are finding yourself getting a bit lost, then perhaps engaging a coach would be a good idea. We help both shorten the learning curve and the fitness development curve.

new2br

#Alex_Simmons/RST Thanks for the reply - your advice comes as somewhat of a relief - as I felt I was starting to disappear up my own ar$e on this!

Its very encouraging to hear your take on this and think you have a really good understanding on where I'm coming from!.

Yes I think I was becoming overly focused on getting the perfect 'laboratory type condition' ftp test to get the figure to derrive all the other zone stuff 100% spot on - and therefore if the figure wasnt spot on then everything from that was useless, which was implied made the Powermeter itself a waste of time. Using normalized power sounds like a good option for me.

Also I was again probably too focused on thinking sticking rigidly to training 'in zone' was the be all and end all - so quite relieved there options/flexibility around this and adjust accordingly based on feel when completing sets/intervals.

When I got the Pmeter originally, I did spend more time just trying to compare the numbers for different types of efforts - and I did find it benefit me just knowing the approx range of numbers id generally achieve, ie when pushing hard, or in a gradual or steeper climb. Only more recently did I start trying to correlate all this into zones etc - which I assumed depended heavily on that 'golden' ftp test - which is where I've become bogged down.

Anyway I've found your comments more that encouraging to keep going with it and use it as a training aide rather than the holy grail. I do intent to complete a more accurate ftp test sooner rather thasn later , but think I'm going to stop overthinking it too much!

Thanks again

jrich

Easiest thing is just to take up TTing and ride some 10s. That will give you a very good idea of your capabilities.

Problem with the turbo is that it's just not that much like riding on the road. If you want to be fast on the road then you need to get comfortable with putting out 300W going downhill as well as going uphill. The same applies with tailwind/headwind. You need to become accustomed to getting back up to speed after junctions or corners. If you're just chasing power numbers then by all means but a turbo and live on Zwift, but if you wanna go fast in the real world then that's where you need to train a good portion of the time.

It sounds like you have understood now, but there is not magic FTP number - it is by no means set in stone. Some days I can do 325W and some days I can hardly manage 305W. It just means that testing regularly is a good idea to track performance and set zones accordingly.

MiddleRinger

Buy Racing and Training with a Powermeter.
Read it cover to cover. Twice.

That will give you a solid understanding of power training. Good luck! :-)

joe2008

new2br wrote:

Fenix wrote:

Yes my main concern was/is doing wasted efforts/dead miles on those valuable road sessions. I wouldnt say I pootle around that often - 95% of the time I'm out by myself and during those times I'm pushing myself in what I'd say is pretty tough to hard sessions based on perceived effort. The remaining 5% might be a 'bun run'/recovery ride with friends. So it is really the plan to try and do a bit more structured training - its only down to what I've read that says just training flat out all the time doesnt really work after a while. TBH I can really understand that but everyone seems to subscribe to it so I thought I'd give it a go - which sort of bring me back full circle to understanding how to interpret the numbers from the power meter. I had always worked on the premis that as I ride on and mix up my routes - flatter sessions (always undulating) or incorprating hillier routes, both long and short - that if it tried my hardest (pacing myself accordingly depending on route) then this would almost reflect the training efforts in structured sessions like tempo/endurance/power since my rides incorporate element of all those things. So if you continue to push yourself as I do each time then you should improve The concept of backing off to deliberately train in a lower/more comfortable zone seems a bit strange - but will happily give it a try if the science works.

You will only improve as much as your aerobic capacity will allow, hence why 'just training flat out all the time doesn't really work after a while.' To build a bigger aerobic capacity, and lift your potential fitness ceiling, you should train at a lower intensity. Try 80 - 85% low intensity, 15 - 20% moderate to high intensity.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/80-20-Running- ... B00IIVFAEY

A running book, but, nevertheless, great information on building a solid aerobic base.

StillGoing

new2br wrote:

Thanks for the feedback guys...

Yip a turbo is a possibility I have been considering. Infact I dusted off the old one I already have which is currently being used as a bike stand, to try and do a session last week when (storm) Dorris was in town. However that experience put me off the notion somewhat - was setting up with plan to do an FTP test but quickly found the power wouldnt be accurate as I could feel the rear wheel slip on the roller esp at increased resistance (power was dropping/fluctuating concurrently) - so either lack of traction at back wheel or the turbo just knackered. I suspected the latter so aborted the session.

I'm not ruling out buying a replacement - but my environment atm isnt that appealing really - my bike/turbo is set up in the only space available - the corner of an already over cluttered garage. So faced with that prospect as my training environment, I thought last week given the choice I'd opt for a rest day/swim/spin class rather than that. And in general I'd take going out on the road any day over my current indoor setup, even if it meant not getting the best possible workout in the time.

If I got space (we are thinking of house extension) I would love a wee room for a proper 'smart' indoor trainer setup as I do enjoy the spin classes I go to and think the social/competitive aspect of the likes of swift would provide the motivation and overcome the monotony of my current setup.

Apologies if what I've said sort of negates my original post - it my have come across that I was focused solely on getting best workout possible each and every time due to time constaints. My real priority is more to enjoy my bike out on the road - getting away from the house in the fresh air is part of the pleasure. Although I'm not a competitive racer (and too old with too many old injuries to plan to be) but probably having played sport all my life its just happens to be that I'm a competitive person (with myself) and hoping that better use of my power meter in tandem with a bit more structured training might bring better improvements for those times spent out on the road.

#stevenmew I'm sure the books you refer to would do exactly that so might try and get a copy ...

Cheers guys...

Wheel on turbos almost always give slippage no matter how well you set the tyre pressure and roller to the tyre. Its simple physics in that the roller isn't a grippy surface and so the tyre can't grip it properly. If there's a gym near you or bike studio with a watt bike, why not just pay a days subscription and go and do the CP20/Conconi test on one of them?