Elite direct drive turbos

StillGoing

Anyone with experiences of either of the following Elite products please and any real advantages of one over the other? Also how good is the software? I'm assuming the Turbo Muin B+ is just a Turbo Muin with the sensor already added.

Real Turbo Muin
Turbo Muin B+
Turbo Muin

I currently have a Tacx Bushido Smart, but I'm fed up of slip using a conventional turbo and the brake lag when following courses. As a direct drive turbo gets rid of slippage, it seems the logical way to go.

timothyw

I've got the old turbomuin which I've put the Misuro smart sensor on - it's a good turbo. Ample resistance, so good for high intensity stuff - especially because there's no chance of the wheel slipping.

Software wise I usually just use zwift. I tried out sufferfest, worked well but wasn't for me.

I've only had a quick play with the elite app - if all you want is numbers it is fine for that, haven't tried to do anything more with it.

Sounds like the real turbo Muin adds the ability to vary resistance - personally I'm happy enough changing gears on the bike so can't really see the point. Also makes psuedo power calculation a bit more complicated and so less reliable - not a problem if you have a proper meter.

markhewitt1978

Keep in mind those trainers don't adjust resistance according to terrain.

timothyw

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Keep in mind those trainers don't adjust resistance according to terrain.

I have no direct experience but it seems from the spec sheet that the 'real turbo muin' does.

Honestly though, the road on zwift pitches up, your avatar slows down, you change a couple of gears and start working harder, what is so hard about that?

I can only imagine that in the variable resistance smart trainers you have to change gears in that situation too, but in the other way - why not use your imagination and save a few quid?

The argument for variable resistance is much better made by ergometer modes that vary to try to make you hit particular wattages, although you could argue that's pretty hardcore for most riders.

StillGoing

TimothyW wrote:

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Keep in mind those trainers don't adjust resistance according to terrain.

I have no direct experience but it seems from the spec sheet that the 'real turbo muin' does.

Honestly though, the road on zwift pitches up, your avatar slows down, you change a couple of gears and start working harder, what is so hard about that?

I can only imagine that in the variable resistance smart trainers you have to change gears in that situation too, but in the other way - why not use your imagination and save a few quid?

The argument for variable resistance is much better made by ergometer modes that vary to try to make you hit particular wattages, although you could argue that's pretty hardcore for most riders.

Yes, you're correct in that the Real version does have electronic resistance to replicate inclines. However, if it is anything like the resistance on the Tax devices that lags a second or two behind or, in some cases, activates ahead when following virtual reality or GPS films, I agree with you, that it is a waste of money. I'd sooner just use the gears if the fluid Muin versions give a more realistic road feel like when on the rollers. A turbo though, makes life easier when wanting to take on fluids or do hard intervals with my lack of skill on the rollers.

I assume I'm correct in assuming that the Muin B+ is just a Muin with the Misoura sensor already included?

timothyw

philthy3 wrote:

I assume I'm correct in assuming that the Muin B+ is just a Muin with the Misoura sensor already included?

Yep, there certainly isn't anything else different about it - so if you can save money by getting the sensor separately, go for it.

StillGoing

TimothyW wrote:

philthy3 wrote:

I assume I'm correct in assuming that the Muin B+ is just a Muin with the Misoura sensor already included?

Yep, there certainly isn't anything else different about it - so if you can save money by getting the sensor separately, go for it.

My exact thinking, although I've just spotted the Kura B+ that seems to add portability and storage advantages over the Muin turbos. Whichever it is, they seem to be good direct drive turbos in comparison with the other manufacturers.

timothyw

Yep, which is to say nothing of the proper power meter, which will always be better for short efforts like you're describing - I got my turbomuin second hand at a great price, if I'd have been buying new I'd have been very tempted.

Just a shame of course that you can't pop out the power meter and take it on your bike with you...

StillGoing

TimothyW wrote:

Yep, which is to say nothing of the proper power meter, which will always be better for short efforts like you're describing - I got my turbomuin second hand at a great price, if I'd have been buying new I'd have been very tempted.

Just a shame of course that you can't pop out the power meter and take it on your bike with you...

I've got a P2M on the main bike and that was one of the problems with my current smart trainer, in that the power on that was way out. A CP20 test gave very inaccurate results.

StillGoing

TimothyW wrote:

philthy3 wrote:

I assume I'm correct in assuming that the Muin B+ is just a Muin with the Misoura sensor already included?

Yep, there certainly isn't anything else different about it - so if you can save money by getting the sensor separately, go for it.

Looking at the Kura, I see it has a flywheel of 4.5kgs as opposed to the older Turbo Muin's 6kg. Surely the heavier weight of the Muin is better for roll on inertia? The only advantages I can see for the Kura are lifetime membership of My E Training and portability. It's a lot more expensive too.

timothyw

If you're happy using your existing power meter on the turbo then you might as well get the cheapest turbo Muin without the smart sensor, as the data from your power meter will be better than anything the Misuro smart sensor can do.

The Misuro smart sensor converts the speed that the flywheel is turning into a power reading. This gives reasonably accurate results with the limitations that short efforts might be underreported (because of the time taken to speed up the flywheel) and long efforts over reported (as the fluid gets hot it is a bit easier for the wheel to turn)

With the Kura, there is an optical strain gauge- a true power meter accurate to 1% - but you pay a premium for it (and lose a small amount in road feel with the lighter flywheel, although this might be offset by different gearing.)

StillGoing

TimothyW wrote:

If you're happy using your existing power meter on the turbo then you might as well get the cheapest turbo Muin without the smart sensor, as the data from your power meter will be better than anything the Misuro smart sensor can do.

The Misuro smart sensor converts the speed that the flywheel is turning into a power reading. This gives reasonably accurate results with the limitations that short efforts might be underreported (because of the time taken to speed up the flywheel) and long efforts over reported (as the fluid gets hot it is a bit easier for the wheel to turn)

With the Kura, there is an optical strain gauge- a true power meter accurate to 1% - but you pay a premium for it (and lose a small amount in road feel with the lighter flywheel, although this might be offset by different gearing.)

Ahh that puts a different perspective on it. Most time on the turbo will be on the winter bike that doesn't have a power meter fitted, so maybe the Kura is the way to go. Shane Miller is doing an in depth test on one soon, so will see what his opinion is. Thanks for the help.

StillGoing

Bought the Kura.

timothyw

Will be interested to hear how you get on with it! Might upgrade one day.

StillGoing

TimothyW wrote:

Will be interested to hear how you get on with it! Might upgrade one day.

Picked it up today. Neat contraption but lightweight it ain't despite being easily portable! Had some initial nightmares getting it to connect as an ANT+ device and whilst it would detect the Bluetooth connection, when it came to using it, it wasn't being recognised by the software. Could be something to do with the set up I have in having an ANT+ dongle plugged into an Android box connected to a large screen monitor. I think the resistance is a bit heavier than natural as I wouldn't fancy any long periods in the big ring on it. No doubt the fluid will thin out with heat and use loosening things up, but the same gearing on the road is a damn sight easier than on the turbo. I'm not sure how accurate the inbuilt power meter is as readings seem pretty high compared to what I get with the P2M.

Good thing though is no slippage and constant resistance, which will hopefully be good for my moody knee.

timothyw

Yeah, you just need to get your head round the resistance being a lot harder than a similar gear might feel on the road - I'm rarely out of the 39t chainring on mine.

Does mean that it has the capacity for exceedingly hard short intervals if you are in the big gears, where most other turbos would have given up (or wheel slippage would have made them useless..)

In theory there shouldn't be much power disparity - have you tried it on the bike that has the P2M fitted?

StillGoing

Not yet. Have been spending most of the day installing the big monitor in position and establishing ANT+ connection. Still got to get HR and cadence sensors connected later when the little one is in bed. I intend putting the bike with the P2M on at the weekend and comparing power readings with the elite software and with the Garmin read out.

StillGoing

Having only done CP20 tests previously, I'm struggling to understand how to conduct the Conconi test. It seems to suggest sticking as close to the set power as possible, but at the same time, asking me to increase speed? Doing that on the Kura fluid trainer would see the heart rate rocket surely affecting the test results?

timothyw

Well, a Conconi test on a traditional static trainer involves increasing your wheelspeed each minute, with wheel speed being a proxy for power output - nowadays you would undertake one by increasing your power each minute. Sooner or later, your heart rate will stop increasing with increased speed/power output, that's roughly your Lactate Threshold, which tends to roughly correspond to your FTP.

Are these the instructions from the Elite software then?

StillGoing

There aren't any instructions. To achieve 18 mph on the Kura, I'm knocking out 570 watts! There's no way of doing that kind of speed or power for any significant duration. I suppose I could do the test using my main bike on the rollers if the software will work with just picking up the power meter, HR and speed sensors.

timothyw

I suspect that test is aimed at people on older trainers then - protocol for a conconi test with a power meter is;

- Warm yourself up thoroughly
- Pedal steadily at low, sustainable output, eg 100watts. After 1 minute, note heart rate and increase power output by 20 watts.
- After another minute, take HR again, increase power output again
- repeat until your heartrate has stopped increasing
- plot heart rate against power on a graph. Lactate threshold is where the line flattens.

After a couple of weeks training, take the test again and note if the power at which the graph flattens has increased - if it has, your training is working.

Anything relating to speed is a distraction. It doesn't matter how fast you're pedalling on a static trainer - it has no relation to real world speed.

It is possible to undertake a Conconi test on a flat TT type circuit on your bike without a trainer by increasing speed, but since it's affected by wind, humidity etc what's the point? Figures one week won't be the same as the same effort another week.

StillGoing

Yes possibly better to do a CP20 test on the rollers and stick to what I know. Shame as the Conconi test when done works out a training program for you. This is how I knew I was was doing it wrong by the program it came up with.

StillGoing

The answer to the Conconi issue is that Elite no no longer include it in their My E Training software. Apparently the licence has run out and they don't plan on renewing it. Zwift it is then.

StillGoing

Athlete Shop currently have the Elite Kuro Smart B+ direct drive trainer on sale at just over £400.

hazy_day

How do you find the Kura.

StillGoing

Great. I've had a smart trainer that auto adjusted the resistance and found the response terrible. Admittedly it was a Tacx Bushido Smart which is rubbish in my opinion.

The Kura allows me to work within my intended power so when doing a FTP test on Zwift, even if the road has an uphill gradient, I can maintain cadence and watts. Speed auto adjusts on Zwift for the calculated gradient and power so is still an indication of ability.

It's quiet and reasonably compact for storage. The one bummer is it will only connect with Bluetooth or ANT+, but not both. Doesn't worry me as my HR sensor is either. If I run Zwift through Apple TV, everything connects via Bluetooth. If I run Zwift through the PC, everything connects via ANT+.

Admittedly I don't use the free Elite training program preferring Zwift and it's structured workouts.

hazy_day

Thanks for that. I've been looking for the last while and there are so many with different features that I'm getting confused.
Nothing like getting real user experience.

StillGoing

Also, because its a fluid resistance trainer, the feel is very much like the road albeit there's no sideways motion as such. The resistance is high so inner ring work is where most time is spent. It initially feels weird working in the inner ring and a low gear, but at a high cadence, you're hitting 200+ watts easily enough. Even when slowing down on Zwift, it will calculate your power to speed, meaning a pause in pedalling doesn't mean an instant stop and will slow you down gradually like on a real ride. That was yet another issue with the Bushido where a pause in pedalling became a virtually instantaneous stop.

timothyw

Glad to hear you're getting on well with it Philthy! Solid machines for reasonable money.

StillGoing

TimothyW wrote:

Glad to hear you're getting on well with it Philthy! Solid machines for reasonable money.

Defo. Another league compared to my experiences with the two Tacx machines I've had that both cost more money than the Kura and performed terribly in comparison.

StillGoing

Athlete Shop now also doing the Elite Drivo for £888

https://www.athleteshop.co.uk/elite-tra ... ign=feedUK