Comparing rides

buncycle

I realise this is a difficult question with (probably) no real answer but how would you rank these four rides. I can't find any such tool/formula online so I thought I'd go with experienced folk.

Date......Distance....Time.....Avg Speed...Elevation
10-Jan.....46.00......3:03:06....15.10......3081
14-Jan.....47.10......2:56:41....16.00......2785
17-Jan.....45.00......3:05:37....14.50......3700
31-Jan.....45.50......2:58:34....15.30......2995

I'm curious as I have a hilly 45 mile Sportive at the end of Feb, which I am hoping to complete in under 3 hours. I had a bug 19-Jan to 21-Jan and the half a dozen or so rides since then have been relatively flat.

Thanks

sloppyschleckonds

buncycle wrote:

how would you rank these four rides. I can't find any such tool/formula online so I thought I'd go with experienced folk.

You could rank them by:
Date order
Time elapsed
Average speed
Elevation


HTH

maryka

And now a real answer....

I'd say they are all pretty similar. Comparing elevation and speed between rides is tricky as it depends on the type of hills you're climbing. Long shallow climbs with equally long fast descents will give a quicker overall average speed than a number of shorter sharper climbs with similar descents where you just can't descend that quickly due to conditions, traffic, narrow roads, etc. Also the general conditions (windy, exposed), road size, traffic, all contribute to the overall average speed of a ride

It's likely based on those rides that under 3 hours will be easily achievable especially if you ride the flatter/faster parts in a group and don't stop often or for long. Unless the weather is dire or the sportive is much hillier than the rides you've posted above.

buncycle

maryka wrote:

And now a real answer....

I'd say they are all pretty similar. Comparing elevation and speed between rides is tricky as it depends on the type of hills you're climbing. Long shallow climbs with equally long fast descents will give a quicker overall average speed than a number of shorter sharper climbs with similar descents where you just can't descend that quickly due to conditions, traffic, narrow roads, etc. Also the general conditions (windy, exposed), road size, traffic, all contribute to the overall average speed of a ride

It's likely based on those rides that under 3 hours will be easily achievable especially if you ride the flatter/faster parts in a group and don't stop often or for long. Unless the weather is dire or the sportive is much hillier than the rides you've posted above.

Yeah that's what I thought it's difficult to say. I am relatively confident of completing it in under 3 hours but it will certainly be a challenge. I climbed Carters Hill for the second time yesterday and it really beats you up!

The sportive is the Kentish Killer short route. 44.5 miles, 4,173 feet of climbing including Carters, Hubbards, Sundridge, Rowdow and Tinker Pot Lane. https://www.strava.com/segments/8926012

imposter2.0

If you found an analysis tool which showed you, on the basis of your data, that you would not complete your sportive in your target time - would you still do it?

If the answer is 'no' - then you have the wrong hobby
If the answer is 'yes' - then the data doesn't matter anyway

buncycle

Imposter wrote:

If you found an analysis tool which showed you, on the basis of your data, that you would not complete your sportive in your target time - would you still do it?

If the answer is 'no' - then you have the wrong hobby
If the answer is 'yes' - then the data doesn't matter anyway

This is irrelevant to my point. It's not a matter of whether or not to compete, it's purely a question of comparing different rides. Strava has a Grade Adjusted Performance function for runners to compare speed when the gradient is factored out. This is a similar query.

maryka

What you really want is a powermeter. That would be far more useful for comparing whether one ride was harder than another than simply using speed and gradient. As you sound like someone who enjoys some number crunching, if you can afford one you should get one. They have come down a lot in price and despite what some prolific posters on this forum will say, you don't need to race or train seriously to enjoy and get something out of using one. Powermeters on bikes are essentially the same as pace-meters (aka GPS watches) in running which is why Strava uses that for its run metrics. Much harder to use speed/gradient on a bike in that it's all a lot more complicated by stuff like equipment (e.g., deep section wheels, aero frames), traffic, road surface and how much you have to brake when you're descending.

imposter2.0

buncycle wrote:

Imposter wrote:

If you found an analysis tool which showed you, on the basis of your data, that you would not complete your sportive in your target time - would you still do it?

If the answer is 'no' - then you have the wrong hobby
If the answer is 'yes' - then the data doesn't matter anyway

This is irrelevant to my point. It's not a matter of whether or not to compete, it's purely a question of comparing different rides. Strava has a Grade Adjusted Performance function for runners to compare speed when the gradient is factored out. This is a similar query.

I don't think it's irrelevant - no more so than comparing your rides, anyway. Like Maryka says, a PM will tell you how you are performing, irrespective of the ride profile/duration. Even with a PM, your performance will vary from day to day.

buncycle

maryka wrote:

What you really want is a powermeter. That would be far more useful for comparing whether one ride was harder than another than simply using speed and gradient. As you sound like someone who enjoys some number crunching, if you can afford one you should get one. They have come down a lot in price and despite what some prolific posters on this forum will say, you don't need to race or train seriously to enjoy and get something out of using one. Powermeters on bikes are essentially the same as pace-meters (aka GPS watches) in running which is why Strava uses that for its run metrics. Much harder to use speed/gradient on a bike in that it's all a lot more complicated by stuff like equipment (e.g., deep section wheels, aero frames), traffic, road surface and how much you have to brake when you're descending.

Thanks, you are right but unfortunately it's out of my budget. I bought a Canyon Endurace and had that stolen so picked up a cheap second hand B'twin triban 500 and, apart from a Garmin, I don't use any other equipment though I enjoy looking at the stats and comparing rides.

Off-topic: one thing I did find peculiar was how much dropping a couple of kilos post-illness helped. It was rather bizarre to feel fitter after an illness (albeit temporary until I gained the weight back!)

keef66

buncycle wrote:

This is irrelevant to my point. It's not a matter of whether or not to compete...

I think that's your mistake. A sportive isn't a race, so you're not competing are you?

If you were competing, you'd be racing, and you'd soon find out how competitive you are. And if you wanted to improve your performance in races, you'd be sensible to do some structured training with specific goals.

buncycle

Imposter wrote:

buncycle wrote:

Imposter wrote:

If you found an analysis tool which showed you, on the basis of your data, that you would not complete your sportive in your target time - would you still do it?

If the answer is 'no' - then you have the wrong hobby
If the answer is 'yes' - then the data doesn't matter anyway

This is irrelevant to my point. It's not a matter of whether or not to compete, it's purely a question of comparing different rides. Strava has a Grade Adjusted Performance function for runners to compare speed when the gradient is factored out. This is a similar query.

I don't think it's irrelevant - no more so than comparing your rides, anyway. Like Maryka says, a PM will tell you how you are performing, irrespective of the ride profile/duration. Even with a PM, your performance will vary from day to day.

I doubt I'll ever buy a powermeter, they're way out of my budget as a full-time mature student. Comparing rides is just curiosity for me, it's nothing more, I won't make any decisions based on the results or opinions of others.

buncycle

keef66 wrote:

buncycle wrote:

This is irrelevant to my point. It's not a matter of whether or not to compete...

I think that's your mistake. A sportive isn't a race, so you're not competing are you?

If you were competing, you'd be racing, and you'd soon find out how competitive you are. And if you wanted to improve your performance in races, you'd be sensible to do some structured training with specific goals.

You're right it isn't a race but I like to set myself goals. I'm not interested in racing, at least not against anybody other than myself. I am following a training plan.

keef66

If it's any consolation you're already faster than me. The only thing I'm usually interested in finding out from my Garmin is how far I went and what the temperature was.

In my defence I'll be 60 later this year...

imposter2.0

buncycle wrote:

You're right it isn't a race but I like to set myself goals. I'm not interested in racing, at least not against anybody other than myself. I am following a training plan.

In which case, ride the sportive and use the time as a marker. No need to try and 'predict' what it might be in advance.

buncycle

keef66 wrote:

If it's any consolation you're already faster than me. The only thing I'm usually interested in finding out from my Garmin is how far I went and what the temperature was.

In my defence I'll be 60 later this year...

I hope I am still riding when I'm 60! I find it relaxing to look at the route and see where I've been, my sense of direction is so poor that I often don't know exactly where I'm going hence the Garmin purchase. I live near Bluewater so often cycle around where Dickens lived which is rather fun as an author!

buncycle

Imposter wrote:

buncycle wrote:

You're right it isn't a race but I like to set myself goals. I'm not interested in racing, at least not against anybody other than myself. I am following a training plan.

In which case, ride the sportive and use the time as a marker. No need to try and 'predict' what it might be in advance.

We're kinda just spinning our wheels with this discussion, aren't we?

fat daddy

buncycle wrote:

We're kinda just spinning our wheels with this discussion, aren't we?

Listen, and understand! That Imposter is out there! He can't be bargained with. He can't be reasoned with. He doesn't feel Empathy, or sympathy, or pity! And he absolutely will not stop, ever, until you give in and just agree with his point of view !

buncycle

fat daddy wrote:

buncycle wrote:

We're kinda just spinning our wheels with this discussion, aren't we?

Listen, and understand! That Imposter is out there! He can't be bargained with. He can't be reasoned with. He doesn't feel Empathy, or sympathy, or pity! And he absolutely will not stop, ever, until you give in and just agree with his point of view !

Let's move on Anybody following Amanda Coker's HAM'R attempt? She's incredible.

imposter2.0

buncycle wrote:

Imposter wrote:

buncycle wrote:

You're right it isn't a race but I like to set myself goals. I'm not interested in racing, at least not against anybody other than myself. I am following a training plan.

In which case, ride the sportive and use the time as a marker. No need to try and 'predict' what it might be in advance.

We're kinda just spinning our wheels with this discussion, aren't we?

Because there isn't really a definitive answer. You don't race, you don't want a powermeter, but you have a training programme and a target event. It is not going to be possible to predict what you might do in the target event for all kinds of reasons. So ride it and don't stress about hitting the 'magic' three hour target in the meantime. It's a sportive, not the world champs.

keef66

buncycle wrote:

Anybody following Amanda Coker's HAM'R attempt? She's incredible.

She must have great mental fortitude to keep doing the same route day after day after day, and it certainly is a great feat of endurance, but I'm not sure I see the point TBH.

Am I alone in thinking this?

fat daddy

keef66 wrote:

She must have great mental fortitude to keep doing the same route day after day after day, ....... but I'm not sure I see the point TBH.

look at it as extreme commuting

buncycle

keef66 wrote:

buncycle wrote:

Anybody following Amanda Coker's HAM'R attempt? She's incredible.

She must have great mental fortitude to keep doing the same route day after day after day, and it certainly is a great feat of endurance, but I'm not sure I see the point TBH.

Am I alone in thinking this?

I agree. The route is obviously almost flat (I think her elevation is around 500 feet!) so it makes sense to stick to the route that she can complete quickly but it does seem a shame that she'll be the world record holder and barely travelled further from home than a club rider on any given Sunday.

buncycle

That reminds me, I saw a guy not too far from me cycle a century by cycling a 6 mile route 17 times. I don't know whether I could do that mentally. Would be nice to not have to take any spares or equipment

kingstongraham

keef66 wrote:

buncycle wrote:

Anybody following Amanda Coker's HAM'R attempt? She's incredible.

She must have great mental fortitude to keep doing the same route day after day after day, and it certainly is a great feat of endurance, but I'm not sure I see the point TBH.

Am I alone in thinking this?

No, there was a thread on this a while back. Seems like such a waste of valuable time.

buncycle

KingstonGraham wrote:

keef66 wrote:

buncycle wrote:

Anybody following Amanda Coker's HAM'R attempt? She's incredible.

She must have great mental fortitude to keep doing the same route day after day after day, and it certainly is a great feat of endurance, but I'm not sure I see the point TBH.

Am I alone in thinking this?

No, there was a thread on this a while back. Seems like such a waste of valuable time.

She can't be doing much else on a day to day basis. A year is a big commitment of one's life.

sloppyschleckonds

buncycle wrote:

A year is a big commitment of one's life.

Only if you have the wrong priorities.

sloppyschleckonds

fat daddy wrote:

buncycle wrote:

We're kinda just spinning our wheels with this discussion, aren't we?

Listen, and understand! That Imposter is out there! He can't be bargained with. He can't be reasoned with. He doesn't feel Empathy, or sympathy, or pity! And he absolutely will not stop, ever, until you give in and just agree with his point of view !

Has he ever been wrong?

fat daddy

KingstonGraham wrote:

Seems like such a waste of valuable time.

really ? .... out of interest what have you done with your time in the last year that's so valuable ... me I go to work and come back every day ... if I died, I would just be replaced by another mindless soul

At least she will walk away with a record and achievement and a good base and recognition as an ultra cyclist to be sponsored to take on other challenges etc.

Doesn't seem too bad for a 23 year old that could just be doing the normal year out gap thing and going to Thailand pretending to be cultured

keef66

fat daddy wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

Seems like such a waste of valuable time.

really ? .... out of interest what have you done with your time in the last year that's so valuable

I've installed and plumbed in a new ceramic sink, retiled the kitchen and am now steadily grouting it. We had an all-inclusive extended family holiday in Cape Verdi where I managed to put on a pound a day, and another in the Algarve which involved a boat trip, a couple of days cycling, a bit of dicing with brush fires, and 3 days touring around including 2 visits to Lisbon. I've relaid some paving to form a gracefully curving path, and planted up the resulting new flowerbed, mainly with shrubs and perennials grown from cuttings. I've helped both our sons move out into rented flats, restored a couple of laptops to factory settings, done quite a bit of car servicing and repairs, cleared the loft of 28 years worth of accumulated crap, and boarded it all. I've done a couple of thousand miles on the bike and about 600 miles of dog walking, lost and regained various amounts of weight, read dozens of books and watched quite a few films and good TV dramas. Been out for dinner with friends and family maybe a dozen times, barbecued quite a lot in the summer, and done more than my fair share of cooking and washing up. Sadly been to a few funerals too Company conference in York, the highlight of which was being able to wander around the Railway Museum on my own for 4 hours, and a chocolate orange in my goody bag. Several trips to various European destinations for work. Discovered I have high blood pressure, but now have it under control with medication. Started a course of CBT to go with my interesting mix of antidepressants. Spent a lot of time at the dentist culminating in two extractions and finally no pain. Oh, and took delivery of a new company car and bought the old one for our eldest son. Thanks for asking.

fat daddy

wow ... valuable ... since you put it like that I take back my statement, that really is making your mark on the world. Admittedly you sound older than 23 so probably have somewhere to plumb in a sink ...... but even still if the world were to end today I am sure that achievement would be bought up at the pearly gates.

keef66

Oh, I forgot to mention I grew really impressive crops of tomatoes and cucumbers in the greenhouse, and the climbing french beans were also superb. And I kept the potato blight at bay and got some lovely Charlotte potatoes which kept us going right up to the first frosts.

I don't think I'd have managed nearly as much if I'd also spent every waking hour riding round and round my local park...