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New Tyre - Help Stop Wheel Spinning

shooter999shooter999 Posts: 142
edited January 2017 in Road buying advice
Hi Everyone,

I'm after a bit of advice.

There are a lot of hills around where I live (West Wales), and the only way I can get up them is to ride out of the saddle, which I quite enjoy doing, and find far easier than grinding in the saddle.

However, when the roads are wet or slick, when I get out of the saddle on the steeper climbs, the rear wheel keeps wheel spinning, which is quite disconcerting and feels unsafe. The tyres I have on both the front and back are the Rubino pro:

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/vitt ... lsrc=aw.ds


Whilst I understand why the wheel spinning is happening (no weight over the rear wheel), will changing the rear tyre help reduce or stop it? If so, can you recommend any tyres?

Thanks
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Posts

  • BobbinogsBobbinogs Posts: 4,928
    Won't make that much difference as you quite rightly point out that it is weight distribution causing the problem. Try clicking up a gear as that will reduce the leverage. Failing that, learn how to put less power down if you cannot climb in the saddle. It is a bit of an art learning to be confident to put more controlled power down as it does mean slowing at times so try and loosen up, keep the bike steady, concentrate on feeling the slip point...and stay the right side of it.
  • sungodsungod Posts: 12,817
    depends on many factors, if you search with google you'll find several reports of poorer grip on wet roads with those tyres

    you could try dropping the pressure, it'll increase contact area a bit

    if you want to change, conti gp4000s are among the better tyres for grip in the wet, if your frame has clearance the 25mm ones will give you more traction and allow running at lower pressure than 20 or 23mm
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • Thanks for the replies, appreciated.

    I'm in the top gear, so no more gears to go and I've stayed in the saddle for as long as I can!

    I didn't realise they had a bad rep for wet weather, I must admit there have been a couple of times when I haven't felt too safe on descents on wet roads.

    I've got some GP4000's in the garage that I was going to keep until the summer. Would gatorskins be just as good?

    I currently ride 23" inflated to 125 psi. The reason the pressure is so high, is to minimise chance of puncture.
  • shooter999 wrote:

    I currently ride 23" inflated to 125 psi. The reason the pressure is so high, is to minimise chance of puncture.

    Thats some big tyres :shock:
    I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles
  • shooter999 wrote:

    I currently ride 23" inflated to 125 psi. The reason the pressure is so high, is to minimise chance of puncture.

    Thats some big tyres :shock:


    Decided to go with Cont 4 seasons 25". £60!! for 2, but what price safety and peace of mind.

    What PSI would you guys recommend?
  • cougiecougie Posts: 22,512
    I rode 23mm at 90 psi or so with no drama. Lower your pressure and keep the weight back.
    If you go wider you can go lower psi again.
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,001
    I have no issue getting up steep wet climbs on Rubino Pros. Your pressure sounds too high, unless you are particularly heavy. Keeping the pressure high to avoid punctures is a false premise, that's not how it works.
  • Imposter wrote:
    I have no issue getting up steep wet climbs on Rubino Pros. Your pressure sounds too high, unless you are particularly heavy. Keeping the pressure high to avoid punctures is a false premise, that's not how it works.

    Not particularly heavy, just over 12st. Probably not the tyres (although they do feel slippy in the wet) just the fact that my weight isn't over the rear wheel.
  • arlowoodarlowood Posts: 2,464
    shooter999 wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    I have no issue getting up steep wet climbs on Rubino Pros. Your pressure sounds too high, unless you are particularly heavy. Keeping the pressure high to avoid punctures is a false premise, that's not how it works.

    Not particularly heavy, just over 12st. Probably not the tyres (although they do feel slippy in the wet) just the fact that my weight isn't over the rear wheel.

    At your weight you could run 25's at 80psi or maybe even lower. 125psi sounds way too high even for 23's

    I'm just under 14st and run Michelin Pro4 Endurance 28's at 85psi front and 95psi rear. Could probably shade those pressures down a bit but that will come with later experimentation. Currently recovering after an "off" on black ice 10 days ago.
  • arlowood wrote:
    shooter999 wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    I have no issue getting up steep wet climbs on Rubino Pros. Your pressure sounds too high, unless you are particularly heavy. Keeping the pressure high to avoid punctures is a false premise, that's not how it works.

    Not particularly heavy, just over 12st. Probably not the tyres (although they do feel slippy in the wet) just the fact that my weight isn't over the rear wheel.

    At your weight you could run 25's at 80psi or maybe even lower. 125psi sounds way too high even for 23's

    I'm just under 14st and run Michelin Pro4 Endurance 28's at 85psi front and 95psi rear. Could probably shade those pressures down a bit but that will come with later experimentation. Currently recovering after an "off" on black ice 10 days ago.

    Hope you're not too badly injured? I always thought that the lower the pressure the more likelihood of a puncture?
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,001
    shooter999 wrote:
    I always thought that the lower the pressure the more likelihood of a puncture?

    You are obviously at risk of pinch flats if you run too low - but in terms of 'penetrative' punctures, I don't think there is any more or less risk from different pressures.
  • BobbinogsBobbinogs Posts: 4,928
    shooter999 wrote:
    Thanks for the replies, appreciated.

    I'm in the top gear, so no more gears to go and I've stayed in the saddle for as long as I can!

    ...

    I didn't mean going to a smaller gear but a higher gear (as in one that is slightly tougher). A very low gear can make it difficult to control the power so click the gear back up and then learn to keep under the slip point whilst keeping control of the bike. On very damp steep roads it can be simply impossible (I had to jump off on a 33% hairpin a couple of years ago which was a bit hairy) but most of the time it should be ok.

    As others have said, way too much pressure. Try 85 front/90 back and see how you get on. Moving to a 25 at the back (if it fits) will give slightly more traction and the ability to drop another 5-10 PSI.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Op you should be able to climb in the saddle. Out of the saddle climbing is a finely balanced thing. I do it in the dry sometimes because of the problem you desribe. I used to get this alot then i starting using irc rbcc tubeless tyres and now i can stand up in the wet and put more effort in before wheels slip. I used to use conti gp4000sii tyres and vittoria corsa's. The corsa' did jot slop. Neither do vittoria pave's. The new corsa is a bit like the old pave for wet grip.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • I found along with some of my riding mates from all disciplines that Rubinho pro and censored . Basically , don't flex much and are " crapper " in the wet.
    I like Vitoria corsa 320 tpi versions , they roll well and a wet weather racing version are available. They do appear to get small cuts quickly but this doesn't translate into any real damage and they go on performing as long as most. However Vitoria diamanté pro cut quickly and don't last hence why they are always getting sold off cheap.
    The usual gator skin , 4 season , pro race are all decent winter runners.
    Never tried hutchinsons but would if io offer at the time.
    I tend to stock up on sale tyres , don't care if they are 23 or 25 mm , winter 85 to 90 psi , summer 100 to 110 .
    70 kg rider. Club runs , chain gangs , and the odd race.
  • MoonbikerMoonbiker Posts: 1,706
    I use rubino pro 3 folding, on the rear run them @ 80 psi. Don't to spin out on steep I climbs but I do climb seated mostly, They only cost a tenner each when I got them, I think they are decent tyre durable pretty fast rolling but the grip in the wet not the best.


    For the front I use open pave or now a clement LGG as they have better grip, they cost alot more though, but front tyres wear alot slower than rear.
  • Pressure does not have much effect on grip in these circumstances (rear wheel spinning on steep, wet climbs). This is because there is not much need for suspension here, so the tyre maintains firm contact even at high pressures. The reduced contact area at higher pressures is mostly offset by increased contact pressure.

    At any rate, your pressure (125 PSI on 23 mm tyres at 12 stone) is not wildly off. You’d be right to worry about pinch flats at 90 PSI with those tyres. Maybe you’d get away with 90 PSI on 25 mm tyres, though I’d use a little more myself (if I weighed 12 stone).

    In any case, Continental Grand Prix 4 Seasons are just about the best gripping tyres you can get in cool, wet conditions. So, good choice!
  • Thanks everyone for all of the comments and advice. Its all appreciated.

    The 4 seasons will be here tomorrow (gotta love Amazon prime) and will be going straight on the bike, will try lowering the psi from 125.
  • sungodsungod Posts: 12,817
    you should go waaaaaaay lower than 125psi, i'm 80kg at the moment which is over 12st

    my commute bike has 23mm gp4000s, 80/90psi to 90/100psi (front/back) is the typical range i inflate to (lower end for wet roads) though in times of laziness it's dropped considerably lower, haven't had a pinch flat in over five years in spite of the worsening state of london roads
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • webboowebboo Posts: 2,886
    I don't think I've ever put 125 psi in a tyre.
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    High pressure wont help. I find conti gators and 4 seasons rubbish in the wet and cold, simply not enough grip.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • sungod wrote:
    you should go waaaaaaay lower than 125psi, i'm 80kg at the moment which is over 12st
    webboo wrote:
    I don't think I've ever put 125 psi in a tyre.
    Despite these cries to the contrary, 125 PSI is hardly unusual in a 23 mm tyre. The chart here (PDF) recommends 120 PSI for an 86 kg all-up weight on a road bike (60% of weight on the rear wheel). And that’s coming from Jan Heine who’s largely responsible for the current trend to fat, soft tyres.

    I inflate for best performance, not to avoid pinch flats (a negligible risk at any pressure I’d want to ride). A rear tyre pressure under 100 PSI at 12 stone with a 23 mm tyre results in significantly more rolling resistance with all but the very fastest tyres available.

    Lower pressures in the wet help with high-speed cornering (where suspension plays a big role in maintaining traction) but not with climbing traction, as I said earlier. The intuitive belief that the majority of the extra traction comes from greater contact patch area is wrong.
  • Alex99Alex99 Posts: 1,436
    The two tyres that I've had friction issues with are Rubino Pro 3 and Conti Gatorskin. In winter I'm on Schwalbe Durano plus which have given me no worrying moments at all in three years.
  • MoonbikerMoonbiker Posts: 1,706
    My psi had dropped to 60 in both tyres when i last pumped them up, no pinch flats. I do try avoid massive potholes though.

    Only had pinch flats racing cx with 20 psi in tyres.
  • sungodsungod Posts: 12,817
    sungod wrote:
    you should go waaaaaaay lower than 125psi, i'm 80kg at the moment which is over 12st
    webboo wrote:
    I don't think I've ever put 125 psi in a tyre.
    Despite these cries to the contrary, 125 PSI is hardly unusual in a 23 mm tyre. The chart here (PDF) recommends 120 PSI for an 86 kg all-up weight on a road bike (60% of weight on the rear wheel). And that’s coming from Jan Heine who’s largely responsible for the current trend to fat, soft tyres.

    I inflate for best performance, not to avoid pinch flats (a negligible risk at any pressure I’d want to ride). A rear tyre pressure under 100 PSI at 12 stone with a 23 mm tyre results in significantly more rolling resistance with all but the very fastest tyres available.

    Lower pressures in the wet help with high-speed cornering (where suspension plays a big role in maintaining traction) but not with climbing traction, as I said earlier. The intuitive belief that the majority of the extra traction comes from greater contact patch area is wrong.

    there're umpteen tyre pressure charts giving a whole range of figures, which goes to show how useless they are, there're far more variables than tyre width and rider weight, even if a chart were correct for one set it'd be wrong for others

    the fact is that unless you have smooth surfaces, high pressure simply results in a harsh ride, surface roughness also affects traction

    whilst friction is independent of contact area (for the same total force, materials etc.), extra deformation at lower pressure allows increased traction, as the tyre can better conform to the rougher surface
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • mugensimugensi Posts: 558
    shooter999 wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    I have no issue getting up steep wet climbs on Rubino Pros. Your pressure sounds too high, unless you are particularly heavy. Keeping the pressure high to avoid punctures is a false premise, that's not how it works.

    Not particularly heavy, just over 12st. Probably not the tyres (although they do feel slippy in the wet) just the fact that my weight isn't over the rear wheel.

    I'm 12st 3lbs and ran 90psi on the rear and 85psi on the front when on 23mm tyres. Anything higher made the tyres skittish and uncomfortable on any mildly rough surface. Reduce your pressures to 100psi which is still more than enough to prevent pinch flats and stave off punctures.
  • MoonbikerMoonbiker Posts: 1,706
    I'd run higher psi if roads were like in the TDF, but local rds are terrible loads of sh*t chip surface dressing.
  • webboowebboo Posts: 2,886
    I think I've had 2 pinch flats in 30 years. Once hitting a massive pothole and the other hitting a large rock. 120 plus is for track racing.
  • ryan_w-2ryan_w-2 Posts: 1,160
    25c Conti GP4K2's @ 110psi rear, 100psi front. 92kg rider - no issues.

    Used my race bike last Friday which has Michelin Power Competitions on it, nearly crashed at every corner!
    '17 Focus Mares Force 1 --- '19 Cervélo S5 Disc Di2

    IG: RhinosWorkshop - Check it out for all my custom builds...
  • Ryan_W wrote:
    Used my race bike last Friday which has Michelin Power Competitions on it, nearly crashed at every corner!
    Can you give us a clue why?
  • keef66keef66 Posts: 13,286
    I've always had 25mm GP4Seasons on the winter bike and run them at 70psi front /85psi rear, but I weigh a bit less than you (currently 10.5 stone) and I don't have any cattle grids to deal with. In 10 years of using them I've never skidded or lost traction, but I do live in East Anglia so steep hills are a bit of a rarity...
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