Titanium bikes

ben@31

What I've never understood is if metals are that fantastic (allegedly) then why do these frames come with forks that are made out of carbon?
For those of you who think carbon must be fragile at all times... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25833264

The Rookie

Different materials have different properties, why should the best material for a frame be the best material for a fork?

Ti came in initially as a lightweight alternative to the current (at that time) top end steel frames, although they tried to use it to improve the ride (stiffness v compliance as appropriate) the over riding reason was weight and why (for example) Trek used Ti frames made by the Lysnkeys at Litespeed for the TdF.

As carbon came in and trumped the Ti frames for weight the makers of Ti frames sought to give them a new relevance and in that respect, it is the combination you can create of better vertical compliance with satisfactory longitudinal and lateral stiffness and a competitive weight where Ti can still be the best option (though other materials can get close with the right design and aluminium frames are still improving in that respect), the key advantage over steel is weight, over Al is the compliance without risking fatigue failures and versus carbon its again the compliance is easier to create.

You don't want a compliant fork as it creates handing issues as the wheel moves rearward, you also loose steering precision, which is why carbon forks are often used with Ti frames.

These are obviously all somewhat generalised as it depends on the specific design, and there have been some pretty awful Ti frames made just so they can be sold as Ti, in the same way as there are some awful CF frames.

coops1967

The Rookie wrote:

With respect to stiffness, Ti is significantly less stiff than a steel frame of the same dimensions......the lower Youngs Modulus can't be ignored!

Oooooh look - he used the term "Youngs Modulus".... yet forgot to mention density of the materials which results in "steel and titanium are roughly comparable when it comes to the stiffness-to-weight ratio".

Here's some reliable info here:- (and info on aluminium and carbon fibre)

http://www.ibiscycles.com/support/techn ... advantage/


Fatigue strength, elongation and anti-corrosion are some of the main strengths of titanium ( I've had Ping stainless steel golf clubheads start getting rust spots here in hot and humid Asia...)

Just to be clear - a badly designed frame isn't going to be saved by being made of titanium, and a badly welded titanium frame will ruin any good design. The same goes for carbon fibre and for aluminium... reviews of the aluminium CAAD 12 are extremely positive, but you could just as easily find scathing reviews of aluminium bikes blaming the frame material ( rather than the bad design).

antonyfromoz

coops1967 wrote:

The Rookie wrote:

With respect to stiffness, Ti is significantly less stiff than a steel frame of the same dimensions......the lower Youngs Modulus can't be ignored!

Oooooh look - he used the term "Youngs Modulus".... yet forgot to mention density of the materials which results in "steel and titanium are roughly comparable when it comes to the stiffness-to-weight ratio".

Here's some reliable info here:- (and info on aluminium and carbon fibre)

http://www.ibiscycles.com/support/techn ... advantage/


Fatigue strength, elongation and anti-corrosion are some of the main strengths of titanium ( I've had Ping stainless steel golf clubheads start getting rust spots here in hot and humid Asia...)

Just to be clear - a badly designed frame isn't going to be saved by being made of titanium, and a badly welded titanium frame will ruin any good design. The same goes for carbon fibre and for aluminium... reviews of the aluminium CAAD 12 are extremely positive, but you could just as easily find scathing reviews of aluminium bikes blaming the frame material ( rather than the bad design).

But if you read that article (which I recommend if you are going to rely on it to support a point) you will see that the author agrees with The Rookie especially as he had the qualifying statement about the tubes being of the same dimensions - "If steel is "density challenged" and aluminum is "strength challenged," then what challenges face titanium? Modulus is the biggie. Even if we start building our bikes out of higher strength titanium like 6/4, the modulus will stay the same." I would think this means that a titanium frame which is engineered to be stiff will probably lose quite a lot of weight advantage over good quality steel. Having said this, my brother swears by his titanium frames to the extent that he had another frame custom built in Ti for his wife.

The Rookie

coops1967 wrote:

The Rookie wrote:

With respect to stiffness, Ti is significantly less stiff than a steel frame of the same dimensions......the lower Youngs Modulus can't be ignored!

Oooooh look - he used the term "Youngs Modulus".... yet forgot to mention density of the materials which results in "steel and titanium are roughly comparable when it comes to the stiffness-to-weight ratio".

Too many variables to list which is why I stuck to the same dimension, but your obvious failing as them having a similar stiffness to weight ratio, well no-one would buy a Ti frame that weighed as much as a steel one, they are made lighter so will be less stiff......your ability to take the kick was only exceeded by your ability to miss the wood in amongst the trees.

Brian B

This thread has went a way too technical.

Original op was asking if they were any good. I have a Van Nic Astraeus and can say it is a good bike, a very good bike. Is it any better in terms of functionality than the super stiff carbon Storck that used to be my 'good' summer bike, then probably not.

What I can say its far more comfortable and it runs very silent as the frame smooth's out buzz and road noise. I do long sportive style efforts most times when out on the bike and find my ti bike far more suitable to my style of riding and since I opted for a high end frame which leans towards the racing end of the spectrum its is still very fast and stiff.

It looks the dog's b*ll*cks though and never seen the same bike as mine in the cafes I frequent and surely that's the most important point.

What I was wanting to say that my bike is very good for me but would not good for somebody who wants a super stiff racing frame.

Most frame materials can be made to suit riders needs and it boils down to how you want your bike to look, feel or your riding style.

benws1

Thanks Brian.

This thread has indeed gone very technical.

I was querying titanium frames as I may consider one for my next bike. I'm not someone who requires a stiff, racing-style frame as I currently ride a Raleigh Misceo 1.0 hybrid and I have an old Bianchi ML3 Alu attached to a turbo.

Titanium looks nice and as someone who isn't all that bothered about carbon, I wondered if there are any good examples out there that are affordable to me. It looks like there are.

Thanks all.

shortfall

benws1 wrote:

Thanks Brian.

This thread has indeed gone very technical.

I was querying titanium frames as I may consider one for my next bike. I'm not someone who requires a stiff, racing-style frame as I currently ride a Raleigh Misceo 1.0 hybrid and I have an old Bianchi ML3 Alu attached to a turbo.

Titanium looks nice and as someone who isn't all that bothered about carbon, I wondered if there are any good examples out there that are affordable to me. It looks like there are.

Thanks all.

Just to set your mind at rest, there are people here telling you that titanium frames are prone to cracking when what they actually mean is a, they know someone who's ti frame cracked, or b, they saw some pictures of cracked ti frames on Google. Neither of these prove that titanium is "prone" to anything.

tmg

Ti isn't cheap, take a look at Enigma, they do Ti and also steel frames. The high end frames are handbuilt in the UK

I have an Enigma Evoke that I use to commute on, its a great bike and I have had no issue's with the bike at all since I bought it last year and have done plenty of miles on it since

The Rookie

Shortfall wrote:

Just to set your mind at rest, there are people here telling you that titanium frames are prone to cracking when what they actually mean is a, they know someone who's ti frame cracked, or b, they saw some pictures of cracked ti frames on Google. Neither of these prove that titanium is "prone" to anything.

Except that given the relatively small portion of Ti frames versus the number that do crack they appear more prone than other materials.

That's probably not down to the material itself as such, but that its harder to fabricate.

keezx

That's the problem, the material itself isn't prone to cracking, but the welding has to done properly.

coops1967

The Rookie wrote:

coops1967 wrote:

The Rookie wrote:

With respect to stiffness, Ti is significantly less stiff than a steel frame of the same dimensions......the lower Youngs Modulus can't be ignored!

Oooooh look - he used the term "Youngs Modulus".... yet forgot to mention density of the materials which results in "steel and titanium are roughly comparable when it comes to the stiffness-to-weight ratio".

Too many variables to list which is why I stuck to the same dimension, but your obvious failing as them having a similar stiffness to weight ratio, well no-one would buy a Ti frame that weighed as much as a steel one, they are made lighter so will be less stiff......your ability to take the kick was only exceeded by your ability to miss the wood in amongst the trees.

Sorry if I offended you.

Each material has its pros/cons which result in different compromises - and that ibis cycles link has some interesting info.

For instance, the titanium frame can be lighter than the steel one ( for similar stiffness) because of its properties allowing it to be built with larger diameter tubing than steel ( as does aluminium vs steel). With the large diameter downtubes you'll often see in Al or Ti frames, a steel tube would be liable to buckle.

The main thing to be wary of with titanium frames is the quality of the welding - so caveat emptor and all that with all the new brands putting out Ti frames.

shortfall

The Rookie wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

Just to set your mind at rest, there are people here telling you that titanium frames are prone to cracking when what they actually mean is a, they know someone who's ti frame cracked, or b, they saw some pictures of cracked ti frames on Google. Neither of these prove that titanium is "prone" to anything.

Except that given the relatively small portion of Ti frames versus the number that do crack they appear more prone than other materials.

That's probably not down to the material itself as such, but that its harder to fabricate.

I accept that titanium requires careful preparation and welding, but where is the objective proof that ti bikes are more prone to cracking than any other material? Pictures of failed welds on the internet or knowledge of a mates bike doesn't count as objective proof. If the OP is worried about the possibility of a failure he should get a frame with a good guarantee.

rower63

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, my Titanium frame cracked rather badly, admittedly after 3 years' use and 18k miles, with serious cracks emanating from the BB shell and propagating along the seat-tube, down-tube and both chainstays before it failed catastrophically.

What I didn't mention was that about the same time, the saddle on that bike, a Titanium Brooks saddle, had its (Titanium) "tension-brace" crack and break.

Look at the technical websites and they'll tell you that pure Titanium becomes especially brittle at low temperatures, but I guess the various alloys have been designed to remove that property.

I may have been very unlucky, but my experience of Titanium is that so far two of the 3 things I own have cracked and failed. I'm curious whether my current (warranty replacement) Ti frame will go the same way....

Monty Dog

rower63 wrote:

Look at the technical websites and they'll tell you that pure Titanium becomes especially brittle at low temperatures, but I guess the various alloys have been designed to remove that property.

Oh $hit - I'd better abandon my plans to take my titanium bike to a 5-day race in the arctic in 2 weeks on the basis that at -20C it will crack and shatter into a thousand pieces! Titanium is extensively used on aircraft - they are regularly exposed to temperatures exceeding -40C and don't plummet out the sky.

I've had cracking, corrosion and catastrophic failure of frames I've owned in aluminium alloy, steel and carbon but none on the 6 titanium bikes I've owned....

term1te

I don't see that many titanium bikes out here in Switzerland, and those I do tend to belong to expats. With a lick of WD40 my 11 year old Van Nicholas frame still looks brand new, after at least 50,000 km. My Enigma Excel is a thing of beauty and is by the far the best bike I've ridden.

An American friend asked if I had a "Ti" bike, I said no, it was made in Sussex.

meanredspider

Term1te wrote:

An American friend asked if I had a "Ti" bike, I said no, it was made in Sussex.

At least you don't ride an "aloominum" bike

rower63

Monty Dog wrote:

rower63 wrote:

Look at the technical websites and they'll tell you that pure Titanium becomes especially brittle at low temperatures, but I guess the various alloys have been designed to remove that property.

Oh $hit - I'd better abandon my plans to take my titanium bike to a 5-day race in the arctic in 2 weeks on the basis that at -20C it will crack and shatter into a thousand pieces! Titanium is extensively used on aircraft - they are regularly exposed to temperatures exceeding -40C and don't plummet out the sky.

I've had cracking, corrosion and catastrophic failure of frames I've owned in aluminium alloy, steel and carbon but none on the 6 titanium bikes I've owned....

Not quite sure what the point of your sarcastic post is. Are you suggesting that pure Titanium is not brittle? I included it because it could be a source for the prevalent view that “Titanium cracks”. Or are you suggesting that my experience of Titanium frames and components is irrelevant - in a thread about Titanium bikes - because you haven’t had that experience?

The Rookie

Shortfall wrote:

The Rookie wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

Just to set your mind at rest, there are people here telling you that titanium frames are prone to cracking when what they actually mean is a, they know someone who's ti frame cracked, or b, they saw some pictures of cracked ti frames on Google. Neither of these prove that titanium is "prone" to anything.

Except that given the relatively small portion of Ti frames versus the number that do crack they appear more prone than other materials.

That's probably not down to the material itself as such, but that its harder to fabricate.

I accept that titanium requires careful preparation and welding, but where is the objective proof that ti bikes are more prone to cracking than any other material? .

Where is the objective proof they don't? The problem is that the only people who are likely to have the evidence (manufacturers) are unlikely to share it if there is an issue (noting they have shared no proof they are better either), beyond that there is no central collation of data either way. Of vague interest is that the Lightspeed Niota frame had the rear triangle swapped to the aluminium one off the cheaper Niota Al as they couldn't stop the Ti one cracking.

shortfall

The Rookie wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

The Rookie wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

Just to set your mind at rest, there are people here telling you that titanium frames are prone to cracking when what they actually mean is a, they know someone who's ti frame cracked, or b, they saw some pictures of cracked ti frames on Google. Neither of these prove that titanium is "prone" to anything.

Except that given the relatively small portion of Ti frames versus the number that do crack they appear more prone than other materials.

That's probably not down to the material itself as such, but that its harder to fabricate.

I accept that titanium requires careful preparation and welding, but where is the objective proof that ti bikes are more prone to cracking than any other material? .

Where is the objective proof they don't? The problem is that the only people who are likely to have the evidence (manufacturers) are unlikely to share it if there is an issue (noting they have shared no proof they are better either), beyond that there is no central collation of data either way. Of vague interest is that the Lightspeed Niota frame had the rear triangle swapped to the aluminium one off the cheaper Niota Al as they couldn't stop the Ti one cracking.

Hang on. You came up with the premise that titanium frames are prone to cracking and so the burden of proof lies with you. It's not up to me to prove that they don't. I'm not saying they never crack, but for something to be "prone" to a certain event there has to be objective, measurable evidence. If that evidence is difficult to obtain it's not my problem. People post stories and pictures on the internet purporting to demonstrate that the Zionists rule the world, that the Illuminati orchestrate wars and financial crashes, and that George Bush brought down WTC. I'm not putting your suggestion in the same category but you get where I'm coming from? If you have seen and heard enough anecdotal evidence to put you off owning a titanium bike then I can accept that, but it's not quite the same as demonstrating that your premise is an actual fact.

meanredspider

I suspect the answer is in this extract from a Ti design guide - in particular references to heat treatment. It's really common to experience cracking issues when weld preparation of certain alloys is not done well. Ironically (and this might be the case with the Chinese sourced frames) the less stiff the material, the less prone to cracking it is too.

The toughness of titanium alloys is dependent upon strength, composition, microstructure and texture, which properties are interrelated. However, in general terms, the toughness of titanium alloys varies inversely with strength in the same way as that of steels or aluminium alloys. For example, the plain strain fracture toughness of the alpha-beta alloys drops from a value of between 60 and 100 MPa.m-½ at proof stress levels of 800 MPa, to 20 to 60 MPa.m-½ at proof stress levels of 1200 MPa. In general, the heat treatments that are normally used with titanium were originally developed to give optimum tensile properties rather than to improve fracture toughness. However, it has been established that for certain alpha-beta alloys it is possible to increase fracture toughness significantly by simple changes in heat treatment procedure or by a minor variation in alloy chemistry, for example, by reducing the oxygen level in the Ti-6%Al-4%V alloy to produce the extra low interstitial (ELI) grade. Such improvements are generally only associated with small decreases in tensile and fatigue strengths. Other alloy types such as the beta heat treated near alpha alloys have better fracture toughness levels than the alpha-beta types.

dyrlac

I have a titanium leg:



Only six months and a bit on the clock. No cracks yet, in fact a real upgrade after the catastrophic failure of the original components .

meanredspider

I don't like to worry you but the screws all fractured in my son's pelvis where the cut it out, nuked the tumour and screwed it back in again. Slightly odd to see a screw head poking up under his skin each time. Bit of local and a small incision and I had a lightweight bit for my bike. So, yes, even medical grade Ti cracks.

I'm sure your leg won't

slowmart

I've always gone my own way regardless of counter narratives or trends, which can be good and bad but life's too short for compromises

I bought a tI deluxe from Indy Fab. It was and remains the best bike I've ever bought. Why? It was made to measure and just felt so special when I rode it.

It's about smiles per mile. Fuck all else counts and if you disagree you need to re evaluate your life coz your not smelling, tasting or living life. Your really not.

dennisn

Dyrlac wrote:

I have a titanium leg:



Only six months and a bit on the clock. No cracks yet, in fact a real upgrade after the catastrophic failure of the original components .

I have 2 titanium plates on my lower right leg and something like 25 screws. Like Dyrlac says. Definitely an upgrade over the previous bones. So why is there ANY argument about having a bike made of it? It would seem that people would flock to them, given the amount of paranoid posts about carbon fiber. It's really weird that people buy carbon, then get a small scratch and freak out, as if the thing is going to shatter into a million pieces. Cyclists????? What can ya do about them???

paul_smith_srcc

I still have my two, a Van Nicholas Yukon and Van Nicholas Chinook, both links take you to my personal blog of each. Both over ten years old now and for me personally they ticked, and still tick the boxes I want. Classic designs, feel super smooth and comfortable to ride and each achieve the perfect bike fit and riding experience I was aiming for.

the_cyclist_of_catan

My titanium bike is going fine after 15,000 miles.

So's the tinanium leg, after 18 months
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByzVNqCc6XQYdmhYTThWd1VsdW8

dennisn

coops1967 wrote:

The Rookie wrote:

coops1967 wrote:

The Rookie wrote:

With respect to stiffness, Ti is significantly less stiff than a steel frame of the same dimensions......the lower Youngs Modulus can't be ignored!

Oooooh look - he used the term "Youngs Modulus".... yet forgot to mention density of the materials which results in "steel and titanium are roughly comparable when it comes to the stiffness-to-weight ratio".

Too many variables to list which is why I stuck to the same dimension, but your obvious failing as them having a similar stiffness to weight ratio, well no-one would buy a Ti frame that weighed as much as a steel one, they are made lighter so will be less stiff......your ability to take the kick was only exceeded by your ability to miss the wood in amongst the trees.

The main thing to be wary of with titanium frames is the quality of the welding -

And you, or anyone, would accomplish this HOW?

meanredspider

dennisn wrote:

coops1967 wrote:

The Rookie wrote:

coops1967 wrote:

The Rookie wrote:

With respect to stiffness, Ti is significantly less stiff than a steel frame of the same dimensions......the lower Youngs Modulus can't be ignored!

Oooooh look - he used the term "Youngs Modulus".... yet forgot to mention density of the materials which results in "steel and titanium are roughly comparable when it comes to the stiffness-to-weight ratio".

Too many variables to list which is why I stuck to the same dimension, but your obvious failing as them having a similar stiffness to weight ratio, well no-one would buy a Ti frame that weighed as much as a steel one, they are made lighter so will be less stiff......your ability to take the kick was only exceeded by your ability to miss the wood in amongst the trees.

The main thing to be wary of with titanium frames is the quality of the welding -

And you, or anyone, would accomplish this HOW?

On basic welds, industry does this by wanting to see that the welder is qualified for the type of weld being done. On more serious stuff, it's done by non-destructive testing or random destructive testing. I'd think it was reasonable to see the welding cert of the person doing the welding.

Ti is clearly more challenging to weld than steel or aluminium - hence, I'd guess, why people have seen what appears to be relatively more cracking issues than in alumium bikes.

navrig2

I've got Lynskey Ti and love it.

I saw the PlanetX Ti a couple of weekends ago and it looks brilliant. A nice mix of matt and shiny and a great looking shape.