Help: I want a race frame, but I best fit an endurance frame.
Comments
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No bike is going to be perfect for you out of the box. If you don't like the bars, just change them. 'Pedalling stiffness' (lol) sounds like something dreamed up by bike reviewers - I'm not even sure it's an actual thing.0
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Sure, I will definitely not be put off from buying a bike just because the bars are too wide. On pedalling stiffness, I've rode other bikes that I felt seriously flex during climbing or sprinting (those were old or low-end bikes though).Imposter wrote:No bike is going to be perfect for you out of the box. If you don't like the bars, just change them. 'Pedalling stiffness' (lol) sounds like something dreamed up by bike reviewers - I'm not even sure it's an actual thing.
I think what has my mind spinning now is that in the case of canyon, the Endurace SL is marketed as "maximum comfort" and the SL frame is lighter than it's Ultimate SL counterpart. That has me wondering wether it's lighter because the frame is less "rigid" to increase comfortability.0 -
Giant talk about pedalling stiffness a lot and Tour Magazine do too -
https://www.giant-bicycles.com/int/tech ... detail/1070 -
bristolpete wrote:Giant talk about pedalling stiffness a lot and Tour Magazine do too -
https://www.giant-bicycles.com/int/tech ... detail/107
Giant also talks about 'legendary handling' and 'race-tuned ride quality' - it's marketing nonsense, not worthy of serious discussion..0 -
How does the bike fit work, have they given you stack and reach figure to shop for? If so give us those and a budget and people may have some suggestions.
I would be wary of buying a Canyon anyway given the stories about their delivery times. I mean they may be good bikes at reasonable prices but they aren't unique in that.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
DeVlaeminck wrote:How does the bike fit work, have they given you stack and reach figure to shop for? If so give us those and a budget and people may have some suggestions.
I would be wary of buying a Canyon anyway given the stories about their delivery times. I mean they may be good bikes at reasonable prices but they aren't unique in that.
I have a whole set of measurements, but I guess most important are reach 38.9cm and stack 61.9cm. I'm looking for something around €2500, preferably with disc brakes and ultegra groupset.0 -
jvannistelrooy wrote:DeVlaeminck wrote:How does the bike fit work, have they given you stack and reach figure to shop for? If so give us those and a budget and people may have some suggestions.
I would be wary of buying a Canyon anyway given the stories about their delivery times. I mean they may be good bikes at reasonable prices but they aren't unique in that.
I have a whole set of measurements, but I guess most important are reach 38.9cm and stack 61.9cm. I'm looking for something around €2500, preferably with disc brakes and ultegra groupset.
A 58cm Cube attain GTC (disc or not, same frame geo) is going to be pretty much perfect for that I think.0 -
jvannistelrooy wrote:DeVlaeminck wrote:How does the bike fit work, have they given you stack and reach figure to shop for? If so give us those and a budget and people may have some suggestions.
I would be wary of buying a Canyon anyway given the stories about their delivery times. I mean they may be good bikes at reasonable prices but they aren't unique in that.
I have a whole set of measurements, but I guess most important are reach 38.9cm and stack 61.9cm. I'm looking for something around €2500, preferably with disc brakes and ultegra groupset.
What stem length you looking at with that reach of 389mm and what reach bars?
The reason I ask is if the stem was a 120mm and the bars reach was 85 you have quite a lot of scope to play about with on the reach aspect, you could drop to an 110mm stem and a bar with a 70 reach and effectively have 25mm to play with in reach.
My Felt has a reach of 386mm, and a 110mm stem with 80mm reach bars, to get the same reach (or near enough) on my Kuota which has a reach of 390mm I have paired 110mm stem and 80mm bars and the reach is 4mm longer.
I also looked at a cannondale SuperSix Evo which has a reach of 395mm so to get the same effective reach to the hoods I would need to have a 100mm stem with 80mm reach bars, or a 110mm stem and find bars with a 70mm reach.
I compiled a who spreadsheet about it looking at stack ad reach of loads of bikes to see what would be in the ball park to fit me, once consideration whihc counted out a lot of long low bikes was my pathological hate of too many spacers under the stem, just looks wrong to me.
The Kuota Kougar is pretty much spot on for me now with a 20mm spacer and a Di2 Junction box mount which is also a 5mm spacer, the set up on the Kuota is 5mm longer and 5mm lower than my Felt which after losing weight and getting fitter this year now seems a little high for me in the front.Obsessed is a word used by the lazy to describe the dedicated!0 -
bristolpete wrote:I think Rob Spedding Editor of Cycling Plus was advised that he was better suited to race geo over endurance as he had a fit on his BMC and was advised to get way lower, but the cable was drilled through the top cap if I recall correctly. I think he is on something else now. The foibles of bike fit and the human body. Crazy.
I remember the white paper from Cervelo saying that short legged riders make the best bike fit as long torso is aero and can get low etc etc. The paradox of a bigger upper body is more weight up top and large drop / lack of stack has to be factored in.
Personally, I would def take a look at a Synapse as that has been to go to frame for long legged asking on here before.
bristolpete,
Just curious, did you not have a Defy before the Supersix Evo, which you swopped for the Synapse. Have you swopped to a TCR but also have the Synapse? IIRC you were underwhelmed when you test rode the two 2016 TCR bikes.0 -
DJ58 wrote:bristolpete wrote:I think Rob Spedding Editor of Cycling Plus was advised that he was better suited to race geo over endurance as he had a fit on his BMC and was advised to get way lower, but the cable was drilled through the top cap if I recall correctly. I think he is on something else now. The foibles of bike fit and the human body. Crazy.
I remember the white paper from Cervelo saying that short legged riders make the best bike fit as long torso is aero and can get low etc etc. The paradox of a bigger upper body is more weight up top and large drop / lack of stack has to be factored in.
Personally, I would def take a look at a Synapse as that has been to go to frame for long legged asking on here before.
bristolpete,
Just curious, did you not have a Defy before the Supersix Evo, which you swopped for the Synapse. Have you swopped to a TCR but also have the Synapse? IIRC you were underwhelmed when you test rode the two 2016 TCR bikes.
Sort of. Long short story. I rode my Defy for 2 years (April 14- March16) and was super happy. Without a doubt, by a long way, shod with 25mm tyres the best descending bike I have ever ridden. 50 mph felt like 30 and I normally crap myself at 40 !!!
Just so sublime. I then happen-stanced upon the Supersix evo bargain sale thread on here and thought £799 for a hi mod evo frame a bargain so I bought one, stripped the Defy and rode then Evo which is believe is an excellent bike.
However, as a frame, the whole thing was really just a tad big for my shape, more so in stand over. I am typically not a medium, but not a large. 5'9 just over.
So, yes, I put 105 bought from Merlin with a discount code on the Evo and sold it to a friend of a friend who paid £1500 for it so I was up £££ wise. I then asked the bloke who bought my Defy if I could buy it back, but he smashed / written it in a crash within 4 weeks of me selling it to him - by being a knob !!! Finally, I test rode a TCR locally and was underwhelmed (may have been spec/kit/wheels) although somewhat oddly, I found I was smashing personal Strava PB's all the time.
In the end, I bought a discounted Synapse as sort of lost my way, just wanted a bike and rode that from April to Nov when I sold it. I enjoyed it, lovely fast supple plush bike but and this is why I commented not as stiff at the BB as a TCR for the steep sharp hills where I live. A two year period if you will of looking for something which I was already on at the start of the process. WIsh I had never seen the Evo thread. Trouble is Defy is disk only and thats not for me ATM.
Hope that helps.0 -
I own a himod supersix evo which I have ridden for many miles. Early this month I rode the synapse which is a terrific bike - lovely ride and excellent handling. In my perspective as an average ability rider there is not a massive difference between the Synapse and the evo in their handling abilities.0
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letap73 wrote:I own a himod supersix evo which I have ridden for many miles. Early this month I rode the synapse which is a terrific bike - lovely ride and excellent handling. In my perspective as an average ability rider there is not a massive difference between the Synapse and the evo in their handling abilities.
I agree. Certainly an easy bike to ride. I rode from Bristol to the other side of Exeter three times last year and each time the bike just cruised - you loose awareness on the bike as you just ride it - miles just creep up. Funny thing - I suppose that's the crush vs. plush thing going on.0 -
bristolpete wrote:letap73 wrote:I own a himod supersix evo which I have ridden for many miles. Early this month I rode the synapse which is a terrific bike - lovely ride and excellent handling. In my perspective as an average ability rider there is not a massive difference between the Synapse and the evo in their handling abilities.
I agree. Certainly an easy bike to ride. I rode from Bristol to the other side of Exeter three times last year and each time the bike just cruised - you loose awareness on the bike as you just ride it - miles just creep up. Funny thing - I suppose that's the crush vs. plush thing going on.
Funnily enough I originally bought the Evo to replace a Defy. However after a 50 mile ride on the Evo - I got on the Defy and although it was most definitely a less exciting ride, the 10 - 15 miles were far easier and faster than the last 10 on the Evo (terrain was very similar). So I ended up keeping both the Defy and the Evo.0 -
letap73 wrote:bristolpete wrote:letap73 wrote:I own a himod supersix evo which I have ridden for many miles. Early this month I rode the synapse which is a terrific bike - lovely ride and excellent handling. In my perspective as an average ability rider there is not a massive difference between the Synapse and the evo in their handling abilities.
I agree. Certainly an easy bike to ride. I rode from Bristol to the other side of Exeter three times last year and each time the bike just cruised - you loose awareness on the bike as you just ride it - miles just creep up. Funny thing - I suppose that's the crush vs. plush thing going on.
Funnily enough I originally bought the Evo to replace a Defy. However after a 50 mile ride on the Evo - I got on the Defy and although it was most definitely a less exciting ride, the 10 - 15 miles were far easier and faster than the last 10 on the Evo (terrain was very similar). So I ended up keeping both the Defy and the Evo.
That is the key. As committed cyclists we more often not want or deserve one of each, budgets and space withstanding. Perhaps even an aero bike for looks and kudos too Tried a Propel. Pooh off a stick but so.bloody.stiff ! Did a 60 miler over Dartmoor and coming back in via steep climbs in Teignmouth I had to get off the bike shaken and stirred !!! 0 -
Thanks for all the suggestions! I'm convinced now that it's better to go with endurance geometry because the fit will be better, and I've looked at several brands and reviews to try to find something that's also a bit stiff (and affordable).
I think I'm going to choose between the Canyon Endurace CF SL Disc, and the Rose XEON CDX Disc. The latter even has reviewers complaining it's too stiff for an endurance bike, which is a pro for me.0 -
bristolpete wrote:DJ58 wrote:bristolpete wrote:I think Rob Spedding Editor of Cycling Plus was advised that he was better suited to race geo over endurance as he had a fit on his BMC and was advised to get way lower, but the cable was drilled through the top cap if I recall correctly. I think he is on something else now. The foibles of bike fit and the human body. Crazy.
I remember the white paper from Cervelo saying that short legged riders make the best bike fit as long torso is aero and can get low etc etc. The paradox of a bigger upper body is more weight up top and large drop / lack of stack has to be factored in.
Personally, I would def take a look at a Synapse as that has been to go to frame for long legged asking on here before.
bristolpete,
Just curious, did you not have a Defy before the Supersix Evo, which you swopped for the Synapse. Have you swopped to a TCR but also have the Synapse? IIRC you were underwhelmed when you test rode the two 2016 TCR bikes.
Sort of. Long short story. I rode my Defy for 2 years (April 14- March16) and was super happy. Without a doubt, by a long way, shod with 25mm tyres the best descending bike I have ever ridden. 50 mph felt like 30 and I normally crap myself at 40 !!! Just so sublime. I then happen-stanced upon the Supersix evo bargain sale thread on here and thought £799 for a hi mod evo frame a bargain so I bought one, stripped the Defy and rode then Evo which is believe is an excellent bike.
However, as a frame, the whole thing was really just a tad big for my shape, more so in stand over. I am typically not a medium, but not a large. 5'9 just over.
So, yes, I put 105 bought from Merlin with a discount code on the Evo and sold it to a friend of a friend who paid £1500 for it so I was up £££ wise. I then asked the bloke who bought my Defy if I could buy it back, but he smashed / written it in a crash within 4 weeks of me selling it to him - by being a knob !!! Finally, I test rode a TCR locally and was underwhelmed (may have been spec/kit/wheels) although somewhat oddly, I found I was smashing personal Strava PB's all the time.
In the end, I bought a discounted Synapse as sort of lost my way, just wanted a bike and rode that from April to Nov when I sold it. I enjoyed it, lovely fast supple plush bike but and this is why I commented not as stiff at the BB as a TCR for the steep sharp hills where I live. A two year period if you will of looking for something which I was already on at the start of the process. WIsh I had never seen the Evo thread. Trouble is Defy is disk only and thats not for me ATM.
Hope that helps.
bristolpete Thanks for the reply, interesting read.0 -
DJ58 wrote:bristolpete wrote:DJ58 wrote:bristolpete wrote:I think Rob Spedding Editor of Cycling Plus was advised that he was better suited to race geo over endurance as he had a fit on his BMC and was advised to get way lower, but the cable was drilled through the top cap if I recall correctly. I think he is on something else now. The foibles of bike fit and the human body. Crazy.
I remember the white paper from Cervelo saying that short legged riders make the best bike fit as long torso is aero and can get low etc etc. The paradox of a bigger upper body is more weight up top and large drop / lack of stack has to be factored in.
Personally, I would def take a look at a Synapse as that has been to go to frame for long legged asking on here before.
bristolpete,
Just curious, did you not have a Defy before the Supersix Evo, which you swopped for the Synapse. Have you swopped to a TCR but also have the Synapse? IIRC you were underwhelmed when you test rode the two 2016 TCR bikes.
Sort of. Long short story. I rode my Defy for 2 years (April 14- March16) and was super happy. Without a doubt, by a long way, shod with 25mm tyres the best descending bike I have ever ridden. 50 mph felt like 30 and I normally crap myself at 40 !!! Just so sublime. I then happen-stanced upon the Supersix evo bargain sale thread on here and thought £799 for a hi mod evo frame a bargain so I bought one, stripped the Defy and rode then Evo which is believe is an excellent bike.
However, as a frame, the whole thing was really just a tad big for my shape, more so in stand over. I am typically not a medium, but not a large. 5'9 just over.
So, yes, I put 105 bought from Merlin with a discount code on the Evo and sold it to a friend of a friend who paid £1500 for it so I was up £££ wise. I then asked the bloke who bought my Defy if I could buy it back, but he smashed / written it in a crash within 4 weeks of me selling it to him - by being a knob !!! Finally, I test rode a TCR locally and was underwhelmed (may have been spec/kit/wheels) although somewhat oddly, I found I was smashing personal Strava PB's all the time.
In the end, I bought a discounted Synapse as sort of lost my way, just wanted a bike and rode that from April to Nov when I sold it. I enjoyed it, lovely fast supple plush bike but and this is why I commented not as stiff at the BB as a TCR for the steep sharp hills where I live. A two year period if you will of looking for something which I was already on at the start of the process. WIsh I had never seen the Evo thread. Trouble is Defy is disk only and thats not for me ATM.
Hope that helps.
bristolpete Thanks for the reply, interesting read.
No worries, must occasionally sound like a serial bike changer. Not the case. I've ridden and met / worked with blokes who change bike like pants, I just seek advice and chat on here when in the process. Life is short. Enjoy your bike say I - oddly the bike I spend most time on is my single speed , base miles year in and out and a 4 day commute 12.5 miles each way makes it worth every penny.0 -
I'm in exactly the same situation and have spent the last few months looking at bikes that fit but offer the same kind feedback and performance as my Tarmac. I've just bought a Domane SL8 which will be used as a winter bike and whilst comfy and nice it isn't a race bike. However the Bianchi Infinito CV that I have had on demo most certainly is. Its as sharp to ride as the tarmac but has a more relaxed geometry and I'll be ordering one of those as a summer bike. I've gone from a 54 Tarmac to a 56 Domane and a 55 Bianchi. I'd tried other sizes and other bikes like the Defy but the saddle to bar drop was too extreme and the Domane and Bianchi allow you to go up a size without sacrificing reach.
Obviously what works for me might not work for you but my problem is a long inseam and short torso so Endurance geometries work well. The problem with most endurance bikes is they only come with disc brakes which was something I definitely didn't want. Colnago do the high geometry on the C60 which is very similar to the Domane but at nearly £4K just for the frame its an expensive option.
P0 -
Other hobbies are available0
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Reach is not that useful a parameter to choose a bike with. It tells you something but not all you need. Effective top tube length is very important as that with seat tube angle tells you how far your bum will be from the bars with them you pick. Using reach by itself will get you so far.
Pick a frame that fits properly. Depending on the geometry yoj may get a more aero position on endurance frame.
When i do a bike bike fit i get alot of data. You get effective top tube, reach, stack, head tube length, saddle to handle bar drop and so on. One other measurement is centre of saddle mount to centre of handlebar as a diagonal. This incorporates seat post set back, effective top tube, seat tube angle, head tube length/stack, head tube angle and saddle to handle drop into one easy to picture measurement. You get an idea from this what sort of position you will have on the bike which is not so easy to envisage from reach and stack alone.
So for myself when i was deciding on a race frame last year i decided what this diagonal measurement was going to be i.e my position along witht he saddle to handle bar drop as i had set up my old klein to mock up if it would work for me and then looked at frames to see which one would do the job. The look 795 xl did with a 130mm stem. When the bike was built up i had exactly the position i expected.
Is the op's current bike set up to your bike fit. Can you post all it's details. If your current bike is not set up why not. Why not mock up your ideal position and post details.
I am still not clear what you want from the new frame. Forget stiffness for a moment. Lets focus on position. Do you want an aero position because an aero position can be very comfortable. The two are not mutually exclusive.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0 -
thecycleclinic wrote:Reach is not that useful a parameter to choose a bike with. It tells you something but not all you need. Effective top tube length is very important as that with seat tube angle tells you how far your bum will be from the bars with them you pick. Using reach by itself will get you so far.
I indeed received a sheet full of measurements, but it should not come as a surprise that the only bike exactly matching all those measurements will be a custom build.
If you would pick 2 measurements from the whole set of parameters to make a selection of bikes that should come close to fit, which parameters would you pick? Would you look at top tube + stack, or something else?0 -
jvannistelrooy wrote:thecycleclinic wrote:Reach is not that useful a parameter to choose a bike with. It tells you something but not all you need. Effective top tube length is very important as that with seat tube angle tells you how far your bum will be from the bars with them you pick. Using reach by itself will get you so far.
I indeed received a sheet full of measurements, but it should not come as a surprise that the only bike exactly matching all those measurements will be a custom build.
If you would pick 2 measurements from the whole set of parameters to make a selection of bikes that should come close to fit, which parameters would you pick? Would you look at top tube + stack, or something else?
You might want to check those numbers against the Eddy Merckx Milano 72.
(There has been slight changes in the geo numbers over the last three years, also i.e. check the archive).0
