Help: I want a race frame, but I best fit an endurance frame.
jvannistelrooy
Posts: 10
I did a bike fit this week to figure out in which size to order my Canyon Ultimate SL Disc. However, the bike fit pointed out I have long legs compared to my arms, and would better fit an endurance frame, like the Canyon Endurace SL Disc.
I want a frame that fits me (endurance geometry), but that's also stiff (race frame). Should I sacrifice one for the other?
I want a frame that fits me (endurance geometry), but that's also stiff (race frame). Should I sacrifice one for the other?
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No, I'm tall but I weigh 78kg (172 lbs).
http://www.saffronframeworks.com
The reason I ask is that the effective stiffness of a bike is affected by the weight of its load. So if you are light, then most bikes will be over-stiff to start with. Really, 'stiffness' and 'sportive vs race geometry' are just characteristics that depend more on the riders vital statistics than what they want to do with the bike. In a sensible world, these would just be frame options. I'm in the same boat as you proportionally and need short, tall bikes. Never noticed them being wobbly.
Iv'e found dissapointingly my new carbon bike has make me no faster than my old heavier "more flexy" steel bike, though i suppose there must be some marginal gains, but no PB's on 10 and 5 mile TT's yet , or improvment on strava segs, & doesn't feel any faster for just gernal riding. (I don'y havea TT bike or clip on bars)
I think being aero on the drops is most important unless your doing hill climbs
So forget stiffness & to a certain extent weight just get as aero as possible.
So the lower bars on a race bike geo will be more important than frame stiffness.
I don't see why that should prevent you from getting a 'race' frame. It doesn't seem to prevent anyone else. The terms 'race' and 'endurance' are largely marketing-led anyway. Pretty much every race outside of a track sprint or F200 is an 'endurance' event anyway.
Well, according to my bike fit, most race frames have a stack that's too low. That doesn't have anything to do with my agility, but more with the geometry I need for an optimal position on the bike. On an endurance frame, I will sit in a race like position.
Does that mean you have endurance bike(s)? Or do you have something custom?
Stiffness is not dependent on the load carried. The ammount of flex is dependent on the stiffness and load applied. Effective stiffness means nothing.
Your bike fit may not be the full story. a saddle to handlebar drop may have been assumed. You can assume a bigger drop and therefore a race frame will work. I have found through experimentation that just increasing the drop is not the best way to get an aero position. For example both my Look and my old Klein have a long top tubes and long 130mm stems. The head tubes are very tall but on the drops my back i almost flat. Those two bikes are therefore the quickest I own. Other bikes with a shorter reach but more saddle to handlebar drop are still comfortable but I am not as aero on them.
You can possibly adjust the canyon ultimate to fit you properly but maybe the endurance frame is better. We lack the geometry of both frames and your exact fit data. Without this no one here can help. You have approached a bike fitter. Take there advise can the ultimate be made to fit you properly or is the endurance frame only for you. That is your desicion no other factors even come into it.
frames are stiff enough do not get hung up on all this. Fit is by far the most important aspect of nay bike purchase.
Thing is, most 'bike fits' aren't worth the paper that your dimensions are written on. You could get another bike fit tomorrow from a different fitter and get a completely different outcome.
As said above, it is usually possible to achieve a good fit on pretty much any frame (assuming the basic sizing is correct), so choose the frame you want and don't get hung up on 'endurance v race' as it means nothing.
Yes; mine are endurance oriented - Ribble Gran Fondo, Look 585 and a Scott CR1 SL frame which one day might get built. I'm quite low down on them due to my short reach - it would be difficult for me to achieve a more upright position without the bars getting too close to my knees when standing out of the saddle. People get confused about the aero-ness of non race bikes; they think that because they would be quite upright on a sportive bike then you would as well. It doesn't work like that!
Anyway, I don't find them in any way too flexible - the Ribble in particular is a chunky frame (more so than the current model) and more than stiff enough for me.
Well no, not in this case. It isn't about the fine details. If you have long legs and a short body then there isn't much room to play with. Stack will be way too low on a race frame and you'd need a micro stem to reach the bars. Even with really short, tall frames, I still need a 90mm stem and compact bars and then I need to be careful out of the saddle as my knees can hit the bars if they aren't straight. You end up pretty much with one fit that works and anything else will be obviously wrong.
Sure, everyone is physically different, but unless the guy's dimensions are so remarkable to the point that they are seen as 'physically unusual' then I'd be very surprised if he couldn't find a 'race' frame to fit him. Or an endurance frame. Or any other frame.
Essentially having the person put you more upright is reducing your reach, it seems to me.
90% of the world in which we ride is pancake flat. Most carbon frames for the non-racer will be plenty light with 105 or Ultegra to get up most hills or true climbs we fancy to do. On a "race bike" most non-racer types may find the crank set too strong for them, make sure it comes with an 11-28 OR a semi-compact setup. Don't go buy an S2 with 11-25 or 11-23 AND a full size crank.
I say this also to mean that the "stiffness" for power transfer probably matters more once you can hold 400+ watts for several minutes or can crank out close to a kilowatt on a super short punch.
There's not way I'm "pushing" the limits of the stiffness of my Propel, and likely will never get close.
Might be where you ride...
Although I believe that his Domane had non-standard "Pro" geometry (and probably a very long stem). Still, shows he wasn't too worried about any lack of stiffness.
No, you shouldn't be surprised if he can't find a race frame to fit him. How would it. The race frame (by definition) is longer than the sportive frame of same stack. So if the stack is right, the bars are too far away. If you go for a short enough frame then yes, you can make it fit by having a huge stack of spacers. But then that would a) look stupid and b) offer no advantage over the sportive bike with the same effective fit but far more appropriate frame geometry (bearing in mind that the stiffness issue really isn't relevant).
Or putting it another way - yes, you an force a frame to fit. It will just be a bad fit and he may need to make sure the fork steerer is uncut from the factory to accommodate sufficient spacers; but why would you want to do that when you can get frames that are already the right fit?
So, look at other makes and you might find that without going for a sportive type option their more race orientated geometry might suit just fine.
So maybe fit a shorter stem? You see where this is going...
I've got identical fits (or near as dammit) on both my race frame and my gravel bike. Granted the gravel bike looks a bit odd with a slammed, -17deg stem, but it feels right.
I think so, but that's part of the reason I put the endurance in quotes.
I'm pretty sure that if Canyon just marketed them as a different fit this post would never have been made...
BMC maybe or the SL Giant defy offerings ?
I raced all of last year on a Felt Z75 which is Ali and has an endurance oriented geometry and it didn't hold me back, I noticed a little flex in the BB but that was only when sprinting full gas, and due to the longer wheelbase it wasn't as nimble in Crits, that said it did everything else brilliantly.
I believe the Canyon Endurance will be plenty stiff enough for you! Have a google for reviews before you buy
Random, I also use 90mm stem and compact bars.
We must be similar proportions.
Synapse was a revelation for me.
On my first incorrectly purchased bike, I had to drop to a 60mm stem.
Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
Scott CR1 SL 12
Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
Scott Foil 18
I remember the white paper from Cervelo saying that short legged riders make the best bike fit as long torso is aero and can get low etc etc. The paradox of a bigger upper body is more weight up top and large drop / lack of stack has to be factored in.
Personally, I would def take a look at a Synapse as that has been to go to frame for long legged asking on here before.
I tried to search for reviews, but I'm looking at the less expensive SL variant, instead of the SLX version. The single letter difference makes it very hard to find reviews that are not about the SLX.
That's another problem, I'm tall but also small, so ideally I should have a handle bar width of 40cm. However, most frames in my size come with 44cm. Next to that, I'm not a fan of fitting too many spacers, and it seems like many of the newest frames don't even allow for it.