Help: I want a race frame, but I best fit an endurance frame.

jvannistelrooy

I did a bike fit this week to figure out in which size to order my Canyon Ultimate SL Disc. However, the bike fit pointed out I have long legs compared to my arms, and would better fit an endurance frame, like the Canyon Endurace SL Disc.

I want a frame that fits me (endurance geometry), but that's also stiff (race frame). Should I sacrifice one for the other?

kingstongraham

What sort of riding are you going to be doing?

rolf_f

Do you weigh a lot?

jvannistelrooy

KingstonGraham wrote:

What sort of riding are you going to be doing?

I'm not actually going to race, but I will be climbing a lot and and do courses with sprints in them. I'm fine with endurance geometry if that fits better, but I'd like responsiveness in my bike.

Rolf F wrote:

Do you weigh a lot?

No, I'm tall but I weigh 78kg (172 lbs).

Hinaultscrapcousin

Get Matt Sowter to build you something and you can have the best of both worlds:

http://www.saffronframeworks.com

rolf_f

jvannistelrooy wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

What sort of riding are you going to be doing?

I'm not actually going to race, but I will be climbing a lot and and do courses with sprints in them. I'm fine with endurance geometry if that fits better, but I'd like responsiveness in my bike.

Rolf F wrote:

Do you weigh a lot?

No, I'm tall but I weigh 78kg (172 lbs).

The reason I ask is that the effective stiffness of a bike is affected by the weight of its load. So if you are light, then most bikes will be over-stiff to start with. Really, 'stiffness' and 'sportive vs race geometry' are just characteristics that depend more on the riders vital statistics than what they want to do with the bike. In a sensible world, these would just be frame options. I'm in the same boat as you proportionally and need short, tall bikes. Never noticed them being wobbly.

Moonbiker

Sprints for the cafe or get KOM?

Iv'e found dissapointingly my new carbon bike has make me no faster than my old heavier "more flexy" steel bike, though i suppose there must be some marginal gains, but no PB's on 10 and 5 mile TT's yet , or improvment on strava segs, & doesn't feel any faster for just gernal riding. (I don'y havea TT bike or clip on bars)

I think being aero on the drops is most important unless your doing hill climbs


So forget stiffness & to a certain extent weight just get as aero as possible.

So the lower bars on a race bike geo will be more important than frame stiffness.

imposter2.0

jvannistelrooy wrote:

No, I'm tall but I weigh 78kg (172 lbs).

I don't see why that should prevent you from getting a 'race' frame. It doesn't seem to prevent anyone else. The terms 'race' and 'endurance' are largely marketing-led anyway. Pretty much every race outside of a track sprint or F200 is an 'endurance' event anyway.

jvannistelrooy

Imposter wrote:

jvannistelrooy wrote:

No, I'm tall but I weigh 78kg (172 lbs).

I don't see why that should prevent you from getting a 'race' frame. It doesn't seem to prevent anyone else. The terms 'race' and 'endurance' are largely marketing-led anyway. Pretty much every race outside of a track sprint or F200 is an 'endurance' event anyway.

Well, according to my bike fit, most race frames have a stack that's too low. That doesn't have anything to do with my agility, but more with the geometry I need for an optimal position on the bike. On an endurance frame, I will sit in a race like position.

jvannistelrooy

Rolf F wrote:

jvannistelrooy wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

What sort of riding are you going to be doing?

I'm not actually going to race, but I will be climbing a lot and and do courses with sprints in them. I'm fine with endurance geometry if that fits better, but I'd like responsiveness in my bike.

Rolf F wrote:

Do you weigh a lot?

No, I'm tall but I weigh 78kg (172 lbs).

The reason I ask is that the effective stiffness of a bike is affected by the weight of its load. So if you are light, then most bikes will be over-stiff to start with. Really, 'stiffness' and 'sportive vs race geometry' are just characteristics that depend more on the riders vital statistics than what they want to do with the bike. In a sensible world, these would just be frame options. I'm in the same boat as you proportionally and need short, tall bikes. Never noticed them being wobbly.

Does that mean you have endurance bike(s)? Or do you have something custom?

cycleclinic

There is alot of overlap between endurance and race bikes anyway.

Stiffness is not dependent on the load carried. The ammount of flex is dependent on the stiffness and load applied. Effective stiffness means nothing.

Your bike fit may not be the full story. a saddle to handlebar drop may have been assumed. You can assume a bigger drop and therefore a race frame will work. I have found through experimentation that just increasing the drop is not the best way to get an aero position. For example both my Look and my old Klein have a long top tubes and long 130mm stems. The head tubes are very tall but on the drops my back i almost flat. Those two bikes are therefore the quickest I own. Other bikes with a shorter reach but more saddle to handlebar drop are still comfortable but I am not as aero on them.

You can possibly adjust the canyon ultimate to fit you properly but maybe the endurance frame is better. We lack the geometry of both frames and your exact fit data. Without this no one here can help. You have approached a bike fitter. Take there advise can the ultimate be made to fit you properly or is the endurance frame only for you. That is your desicion no other factors even come into it.

frames are stiff enough do not get hung up on all this. Fit is by far the most important aspect of nay bike purchase.

imposter2.0

jvannistelrooy wrote:

Imposter wrote:

jvannistelrooy wrote:

No, I'm tall but I weigh 78kg (172 lbs).

I don't see why that should prevent you from getting a 'race' frame. It doesn't seem to prevent anyone else. The terms 'race' and 'endurance' are largely marketing-led anyway. Pretty much every race outside of a track sprint or F200 is an 'endurance' event anyway.

Well, according to my bike fit, most race frames have a stack that's too low. That doesn't have anything to do with my agility, but more with the geometry I need for an optimal position on the bike. On an endurance frame, I will sit in a race like position.

Thing is, most 'bike fits' aren't worth the paper that your dimensions are written on. You could get another bike fit tomorrow from a different fitter and get a completely different outcome.

As said above, it is usually possible to achieve a good fit on pretty much any frame (assuming the basic sizing is correct), so choose the frame you want and don't get hung up on 'endurance v race' as it means nothing.

rolf_f

jvannistelrooy wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

jvannistelrooy wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

What sort of riding are you going to be doing?

I'm not actually going to race, but I will be climbing a lot and and do courses with sprints in them. I'm fine with endurance geometry if that fits better, but I'd like responsiveness in my bike.

Rolf F wrote:

Do you weigh a lot?

No, I'm tall but I weigh 78kg (172 lbs).

The reason I ask is that the effective stiffness of a bike is affected by the weight of its load. So if you are light, then most bikes will be over-stiff to start with. Really, 'stiffness' and 'sportive vs race geometry' are just characteristics that depend more on the riders vital statistics than what they want to do with the bike. In a sensible world, these would just be frame options. I'm in the same boat as you proportionally and need short, tall bikes. Never noticed them being wobbly.

Does that mean you have endurance bike(s)? Or do you have something custom?

Yes; mine are endurance oriented - Ribble Gran Fondo, Look 585 and a Scott CR1 SL frame which one day might get built. I'm quite low down on them due to my short reach - it would be difficult for me to achieve a more upright position without the bars getting too close to my knees when standing out of the saddle. People get confused about the aero-ness of non race bikes; they think that because they would be quite upright on a sportive bike then you would as well. It doesn't work like that!

Anyway, I don't find them in any way too flexible - the Ribble in particular is a chunky frame (more so than the current model) and more than stiff enough for me.

rolf_f

Imposter wrote:

Thing is, most 'bike fits' aren't worth the paper that your dimensions are written on. You could get another bike fit tomorrow from a different fitter and get a completely different outcome.

As said above, it is usually possible to achieve a good fit on pretty much any frame (assuming the basic sizing is correct), so choose the frame you want and don't get hung up on 'endurance v race' as it means nothing.

Well no, not in this case. It isn't about the fine details. If you have long legs and a short body then there isn't much room to play with. Stack will be way too low on a race frame and you'd need a micro stem to reach the bars. Even with really short, tall frames, I still need a 90mm stem and compact bars and then I need to be careful out of the saddle as my knees can hit the bars if they aren't straight. You end up pretty much with one fit that works and anything else will be obviously wrong.

imposter2.0

Rolf F wrote:

Imposter wrote:

Thing is, most 'bike fits' aren't worth the paper that your dimensions are written on. You could get another bike fit tomorrow from a different fitter and get a completely different outcome.

As said above, it is usually possible to achieve a good fit on pretty much any frame (assuming the basic sizing is correct), so choose the frame you want and don't get hung up on 'endurance v race' as it means nothing.

Well no, not in this case. It isn't about the fine details. If you have long legs and a short body then there isn't much room to play with. Stack will be way too low on a race frame and you'd need a micro stem to reach the bars. Even with really short, tall frames, I still need a 90mm stem and compact bars and then I need to be careful out of the saddle as my knees can hit the bars if they aren't straight. You end up pretty much with one fit that works and anything else will be obviously wrong.

Sure, everyone is physically different, but unless the guy's dimensions are so remarkable to the point that they are seen as 'physically unusual' then I'd be very surprised if he couldn't find a 'race' frame to fit him. Or an endurance frame. Or any other frame.

burnthesheep

I'm still a little new to all this, but wouldn't this mostly affect your reach? Buy the race bike for your legs size then buy a new stem to sort out your reach. It would be a shorter stem.

Essentially having the person put you more upright is reducing your reach, it seems to me.

90% of the world in which we ride is pancake flat. Most carbon frames for the non-racer will be plenty light with 105 or Ultegra to get up most hills or true climbs we fancy to do. On a "race bike" most non-racer types may find the crank set too strong for them, make sure it comes with an 11-28 OR a semi-compact setup. Don't go buy an S2 with 11-25 or 11-23 AND a full size crank.

I say this also to mean that the "stiffness" for power transfer probably matters more once you can hold 400+ watts for several minutes or can crank out close to a kilowatt on a super short punch.

There's not way I'm "pushing" the limits of the stiffness of my Propel, and likely will never get close.

mrb123

Looking at the measurements for the Ultimate and Endurace frames for any given size there doesn't seem to be much more than a spacer or two between them. As others have said, there often aren't huge differences between frames sold as "race" or "endurance" and a frame of the correct size can be tweaked to suit you.

Hinaultscrapcousin

burnthesheep wrote:

I'm still a little new to all this, but wouldn't this mostly affect your reach? Buy the race bike for your legs size then buy a new stem to sort out your reach. It would be a shorter stem.

Essentially having the person put you more upright is reducing your reach, it seems to me.

90% of the world in which we ride is pancake flat. Most carbon frames for the non-racer will be plenty light with 105 or Ultegra to get up most hills or true climbs we fancy to do. On a "race bike" most non-racer types may find the crank set too strong for them, make sure it comes with an 11-28 OR a semi-compact setup. Don't go buy an S2 with 11-25 or 11-23 AND a full size crank.

I say this also to mean that the "stiffness" for power transfer probably matters more once you can hold 400+ watts for several minutes or can crank out close to a kilowatt on a super short punch.

There's not way I'm "pushing" the limits of the stiffness of my Propel, and likely will never get close.

Might be where you ride...

Hinaultscrapcousin

On the OP, there is this fella called Fabian Cancellara. He seemed to do alright on an "endurance" frame when he raced.

mrb123

Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:

On the OP, there is this fella called Fabian Cancellara. He seemed to do alright on an "endurance" frame when he raced.

Although I believe that his Domane had non-standard "Pro" geometry (and probably a very long stem). Still, shows he wasn't too worried about any lack of stiffness.

rolf_f

Imposter wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Imposter wrote:

Thing is, most 'bike fits' aren't worth the paper that your dimensions are written on. You could get another bike fit tomorrow from a different fitter and get a completely different outcome.

As said above, it is usually possible to achieve a good fit on pretty much any frame (assuming the basic sizing is correct), so choose the frame you want and don't get hung up on 'endurance v race' as it means nothing.

Well no, not in this case. It isn't about the fine details. If you have long legs and a short body then there isn't much room to play with. Stack will be way too low on a race frame and you'd need a micro stem to reach the bars. Even with really short, tall frames, I still need a 90mm stem and compact bars and then I need to be careful out of the saddle as my knees can hit the bars if they aren't straight. You end up pretty much with one fit that works and anything else will be obviously wrong.

Sure, everyone is physically different, but unless the guy's dimensions are so remarkable to the point that they are seen as 'physically unusual' then I'd be very surprised if he couldn't find a 'race' frame to fit him. Or an endurance frame. Or any other frame.

No, you shouldn't be surprised if he can't find a race frame to fit him. How would it. The race frame (by definition) is longer than the sportive frame of same stack. So if the stack is right, the bars are too far away. If you go for a short enough frame then yes, you can make it fit by having a huge stack of spacers. But then that would a) look stupid and b) offer no advantage over the sportive bike with the same effective fit but far more appropriate frame geometry (bearing in mind that the stiffness issue really isn't relevant).

Or putting it another way - yes, you an force a frame to fit. It will just be a bad fit and he may need to make sure the fork steerer is uncut from the factory to accommodate sufficient spacers; but why would you want to do that when you can get frames that are already the right fit?

mfin

I'm surprised no one has mentioned that just because Canyon might seem long and low (definitely in the case of the Aeroad) and hence might not work, it doesn't mean all makes are like that, and they are not.

So, look at other makes and you might find that without going for a sportive type option their more race orientated geometry might suit just fine.

trek_dan

MrB123 wrote:

Looking at the measurements for the Ultimate and Endurace frames for any given size there doesn't seem to be much more than a spacer or two between them. As others have said, there often aren't huge differences between frames sold as "race" or "endurance" and a frame of the correct size can be tweaked to suit you.

Yep. I've got a supposedly 'sportive' geometry Focus Cayo, and a supposedly 'race geometry' Focus Izalco. The only real difference is I need 20mm of spacers under the stem on the Izalco, and the seat is pushed noticeably forward on the Cayo to achieve the same saddle setback. I actually use the Cayo for crit racing as I am unconcerned about crashing it. Both feel stiff enough to me

imposter2.0

Rolf F wrote:

The race frame (by definition) is longer than the sportive frame of same stack. So if the stack is right, the bars are too far away.

So maybe fit a shorter stem? You see where this is going...

I've got identical fits (or near as dammit) on both my race frame and my gravel bike. Granted the gravel bike looks a bit odd with a slammed, -17deg stem, but it feels right.

Hinaultscrapcousin

MrB123 wrote:

Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:

On the OP, there is this fella called Fabian Cancellara. He seemed to do alright on an "endurance" frame when he raced.

Although I believe that his Domane had non-standard "Pro" geometry (and probably a very long stem). Still, shows he wasn't too worried about any lack of stiffness.

I think so, but that's part of the reason I put the endurance in quotes.

I'm pretty sure that if Canyon just marketed them as a different fit this post would never have been made...

bristolpete

The issue here as I read it is that the OP wants pedalling stiffness on an endurance frame ? I see where he is coming from as last year my synapse encouraged me to mile munch but avoid the really steep stuff, where as my TCR has me seeking out steep sharp climbs which though slow, helped me climb better. I've no idea which endurance road frames have super stiff BB but concur that of the endurance bikes I've tried Domane and Synapse are neither propel, tarmac or TCR down below. It always one in out for me but ideally have both.

BMC maybe or the SL Giant defy offerings ?

JesseD

Get what fits you best, if that's an "endurance" geometry frame then so be it, most are plenty stiff enough!

I raced all of last year on a Felt Z75 which is Ali and has an endurance oriented geometry and it didn't hold me back, I noticed a little flex in the BB but that was only when sprinting full gas, and due to the longer wheelbase it wasn't as nimble in Crits, that said it did everything else brilliantly.

I believe the Canyon Endurance will be plenty stiff enough for you! Have a google for reviews before you buy

daniel_b

Rolf F wrote:

Imposter wrote:

Thing is, most 'bike fits' aren't worth the paper that your dimensions are written on. You could get another bike fit tomorrow from a different fitter and get a completely different outcome.

As said above, it is usually possible to achieve a good fit on pretty much any frame (assuming the basic sizing is correct), so choose the frame you want and don't get hung up on 'endurance v race' as it means nothing.

Well no, not in this case. It isn't about the fine details. If you have long legs and a short body then there isn't much room to play with. Stack will be way too low on a race frame and you'd need a micro stem to reach the bars. Even with really short, tall frames, I still need a 90mm stem and compact bars and then I need to be careful out of the saddle as my knees can hit the bars if they aren't straight. You end up pretty much with one fit that works and anything else will be obviously wrong.

Random, I also use 90mm stem and compact bars.
We must be similar proportions.
Synapse was a revelation for me.
On my first incorrectly purchased bike, I had to drop to a 60mm stem.

DeVlaeminck

I would just find a race frame that wasn't particularly long and low - fit a couple of cms spacers, maybe a cm off the stem and a few degrees less angle - it'll be fine. Narrower bars effectively shorten the reach too and have the advantage of being more racey.

bristolpete

I think Rob Spedding Editor of Cycling Plus was advised that he was better suited to race geo over endurance as he had a fit on his BMC and was advised to get way lower, but the cable was drilled through the top cap if I recall correctly. I think he is on something else now. The foibles of bike fit and the human body. Crazy.

I remember the white paper from Cervelo saying that short legged riders make the best bike fit as long torso is aero and can get low etc etc. The paradox of a bigger upper body is more weight up top and large drop / lack of stack has to be factored in.

Personally, I would def take a look at a Synapse as that has been to go to frame for long legged asking on here before.

jvannistelrooy

bristolpete wrote:

The issue here as I read it is that the OP wants pedalling stiffness on an endurance frame ?

Yes, that's a good summary I guess.

JesseD wrote:

I believe the Canyon Endurance will be plenty stiff enough for you! Have a google for reviews before you buy

I tried to search for reviews, but I'm looking at the less expensive SL variant, instead of the SLX version. The single letter difference makes it very hard to find reviews that are not about the SLX.

DeVlaeminck wrote:

I would just find a race frame that wasn't particularly long and low - fit a couple of cms spacers, maybe a cm off the stem and a few degrees less angle - it'll be fine. Narrower bars effectively shorten the reach too and have the advantage of being more racey.

That's another problem, I'm tall but also small, so ideally I should have a handle bar width of 40cm. However, most frames in my size come with 44cm. Next to that, I'm not a fan of fitting too many spacers, and it seems like many of the newest frames don't even allow for it.