4iiii Power meter - sending away your crank for fitting. VAT and extra tax etc.

barry_badrinath

Hello All. This PM is really interesting me and seems to have pretty good feedback and reviews after some early hiccups.
https://4iiii-innovations.myshopify.com/collections/power-meters/products/precision-factory-install?variant=17326966406

I'm taking delivery of my new steed soon with Dura Ace groupset (a ridiculous ex demo Rose bike), and the option to send my left crank away is a lot more attractive than a lot of the other options out there. I don't really want to spend over £500 and this looks ideal (a Stages 105 is a similar price, but don't fancy that).

However, on the site there is this caveat: For customers outside of Canada and the USA order will be subject to applicable VAT and duties.

It's around £330 just now (but that will likely go up as the pound continues to tank!), so was wondering how much extra I am likely to pay - has anyone in the UK got one and can offer advice? Also, are you happy with the it generally?

Grill

You'll likely have to pay it and you should expect up to £100 in fees. TBH you can get a Quarq or P2M for that price, so personally I wouldn't bother.

barry_badrinath

Grill wrote:

You'll likely have to pay it and you should expect up to £100 in fees. TBH you can get a Quarq or P2M for that price, so personally I wouldn't bother.

Have you got a link? I was sure all Quarqs were over a grand?

timothyw

If you're keen I would think very seriously about going for the dual-sided factory install rather than just single sided - it's considerably cheaper to get it done now rather than the left side now, right side later.

To agree with Grill though, once you're spending that sort of money you should probably be thinking seriously about other options which avoid the inconvenience of sending the crank off (and uncertainty over fees) which might allow you to recoup some cash by selling the dura ace crankset.

smoggysteve

The power meter market is going to experience a massive shift now that Shimano have entered the game. Expect to see the moderate priced meters come down in price. The cost of a crank based meter could be close to where stuff like Stages and Pioneer are now.

For me the 4iiii system and the hoops you need to jump through to get it you're just as well buying a Stages of pioneer or a garmin Vector S. at least these are relatively easy to send back if you have issues.

barry_badrinath

Yeah fair points, can't argue with that too much. I'll maybe leave it a few months and see how the market changes - not likely to be riding the new bike outside properly for a few months anyway living in Edinburgh...

I know it makes me sound like the ridiculous road bike snob I swore I never would be, but I wouldn't want to get a Stages 105 crank and put it on the DA chainset (as well as leaving the DA left crank doing nothing). And over £600 for the DA Stages crank is ludicrous!

super_davo

Evans stock the pre installed arms, similar to Stages.

It's £379 for 105, £469 for Ultegra, £549 for Duraace.

I can get 10% off Evans through my work, which means I can get a 105 for £340ish. Mighty tempting, but I've got the same bike tart issue as my bikes are all Ultegra. I'm sure I will crack at the first hint of a discount!

Grill

Barry Badrinath wrote:

Grill wrote:

You'll likely have to pay it and you should expect up to £100 in fees. TBH you can get a Quarq or P2M for that price, so personally I wouldn't bother.

Have you got a link? I was sure all Quarqs were over a grand?

Naw, they start around 600. Just buy used, lots of good deals out there.

harry-s

It's no big deal sending your crank to Canada. You make your purchase online, 4iiii email you the FedEx labels, put your crank in a bag and FedEx them FOC to 4iiii. Two weeks later you'll get a crank/pm back via FedEx. I've done it a few times now, and got stung for duty once I think, so it seems a bit hit and miss.

barry_badrinath

Harry-S wrote:

It's no big deal sending your crank to Canada. You make your purchase online, 4iiii email you the FedEx labels, put your crank in a bag and FedEx them FOC to 4iiii. Two weeks later you'll get a crank/pm back via FedEx. I've done it a few times now, and got stung for duty once I think, so it seems a bit hit and miss.

How much did it sting you by?

gethinceri

Buy a BePro.

StillGoing

Grill wrote:

You'll likely have to pay it and you should expect up to £100 in fees. TBH you can get a Quarq or P2M for that price, so personally I wouldn't bother.

Got to agree with Grill and find a crank based power meter second hand or new if you can afford it. Pedal systems restrict you to one type of pedal and useless if you prefer Speedplay. 4iiii is single sided and a faff to be having to send a crank arm off in exchange for another when you could get a second hand P2M for similar money and a lot less hassle.

Man Of Lard

4iiii actually declare the crank correctly so it shouldn't attract duty or VAT - if it does it's a clerical error at FedEx and should be sorted quickly and painlessly.

barry_badrinath

philthy3 wrote:

Grill wrote:

You'll likely have to pay it and you should expect up to £100 in fees. TBH you can get a Quarq or P2M for that price, so personally I wouldn't bother.

Got to agree with Grill and find a crank based power meter second hand or new if you can afford it. Pedal systems restrict you to one type of pedal and useless if you prefer Speedplay. 4iiii is single sided and a faff to be having to send a crank arm off in exchange for another when you could get a second hand P2M for similar money and a lot less hassle.

For my uses I think I'd be OK with single arm crank and don't really want to go above £500. Ideally would rather go new as well for warranty etc.

londoncommuter

Have a look online to check the latest but, from memory, you're looking at a worst case scenario of 20% VAT, 4.8% import duty and a Royal Mail fee of £12.

londoncommuter

Man Of Lard wrote:

4iiii actually declare the crank correctly so it shouldn't attract duty or VAT - if it does it's a clerical error at FedEx and should be sorted quickly and painlessly.

Why wouldn't it? You're importing the 4iii device so it should attract VAT and duty.

barry_badrinath

londoncommuter wrote:

Have a look online to check the latest but, from memory, you're looking at a worst case scenario of 20% VAT, 4.8% import duty and a Royal Mail fee of £12.

Cool cheers. So we're talking c£95 extra. One to ponder!

booyaka

Please check your bike first that you can fit a crank based power meter.

Rose bikes with direct mount rear brakes under the bottom bracket sometimes don't allow you to fit crank arm based power meters as they won't clear the rear brake!

I know from experience.

Check the clearance!!

Man Of Lard

londoncommuter wrote:

Man Of Lard wrote:

4iiii actually declare the crank correctly so it shouldn't attract duty or VAT - if it does it's a clerical error at FedEx and should be sorted quickly and painlessly.

Why wouldn't it? You're importing the 4iii device so it should attract VAT and duty.

You export your crank to 4iiii (you paid UK VAT on it) and then you have paid for the service to have the power meter added with the UK VAT - if they charged import VAT on top that would be double VATting (which I think is illegal)

If you buy one complete from 4iiii they charge you the VAT - so there is nothing to pay.

I know this because I did it...

You certainly wouldn't expect to pay VAT on the clothes you took on holiday to the US on your return...

londoncommuter

Man Of Lard wrote:

londoncommuter wrote:

Man Of Lard wrote:

4iiii actually declare the crank correctly so it shouldn't attract duty or VAT - if it does it's a clerical error at FedEx and should be sorted quickly and painlessly.

Why wouldn't it? You're importing the 4iii device so it should attract VAT and duty.

You export your crank to 4iiii (you paid UK VAT on it) and then you have paid for the service to have the power meter added with the UK VAT - if they charged import VAT on top that would be double VATting (which I think is illegal)

If you buy one complete from 4iiii they charge you the VAT - so there is nothing to pay.

I know this because I did it...

You certainly wouldn't expect to pay VAT on the clothes you took on holiday to the US on your return...

I'm not suggesting you pay VAT or import duty on your crank. You are paying it on the power meter they glue to it.

4iii in the US will not charge you UK VAT that's why you suffer it when it arrives:

"Our factory installed PRECISION Powermeters cost $399.99 USD + shipping, which is calculated during the checkout process. In addition to this, international customers may need to pay taxes and duties (such as VAT) that are assessed by their government. Our carrier will also charge a convenience fee for paying these duties and taxes at the time of import, and customers are responsible for paying that fee as well."

Man Of Lard

Read the page where you buy it to be fitted : https://4iiii-innovations.myshopify.com ... ry-install

Once you place your order, we get in touch with the logistics. You’ll then send us your left crank arm, we install a PRECISION left-side power meter on it, and we ship it back to you. Orders placed today will require approximately two weeks to install and ship back to you.

For customers outside of Canada and the USA orders will be subject to applicable VAT and duties.

Orders - ie. You pay the VAT when you order - it arrives here VAT prepaid and nothing to declare.

I've done it - it arrived VAT prepaid. Because (highly technical content) I paid the VAT on the original order.

londoncommuter

Man Of Lard wrote:

Read the page where you buy it to be fitted : https://4iiii-innovations.myshopify.com ... ry-install

Once you place your order, we get in touch with the logistics. You’ll then send us your left crank arm, we install a PRECISION left-side power meter on it, and we ship it back to you. Orders placed today will require approximately two weeks to install and ship back to you.

For customers outside of Canada and the USA orders will be subject to applicable VAT and duties.

Orders - ie. You pay the VAT when you order - it arrives here VAT prepaid and nothing to declare.

I've done it - it arrived VAT prepaid. Because (highly technical content) I paid the VAT on the original order.

Yes, the goods are subject to VAT and applicable duties but that statement from 4iii doesn't confirm they hand it over. If you're saying that is actually the case in practice then great.

barry_badrinath

Man of Lard - are you happy with it as a product? Would you recommend it?

Man Of Lard

Barry Badrinath wrote:

Man of Lard - are you happy with it as a product? Would you recommend it?

Well - it gives results generally in agreement with the Stages G2 that I sent back because the Stages doesn't play nicely with the Edge 820 on an out front mount... I suspect a compromised antenna design in the Stages which reduces range to ~5m in clear air (obviously a lot less when it is trying to penetrate a frame, headset, bars, mount) and a bit of daft antenna placement in the 520/820/1000.

The 4iiii shows no signs of dropouts that plagued the Stages G2.

harry-s

I can't say I can remember exactly how much duty I paid when I did pay, it wasn't near £100 though, more like £50 ish. 4iiii were, at the time, having a few issues with FedEx, and it's possible they've changed their shipping protocol since I last used them, which was about 6 months ago.
Generally the product has been pretty good, - the first (early) one I got developed a problem, but the 4iiii support was excellent. That was a gen 1 version, and they replaced it FOC with a gen 2, and that has been fine. My other, later gen 1 has been reliable and is half way through it's second winter now. The Garmin interface is good, battery life good, and no data drop outs.

barry_badrinath

Sounds good - thanks both

sloppyschleckonds

Primary concern for a powermeter should be accuracy

barry_badrinath

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

Primary concern for a powermeter should be accuracy

Seems pretty accurate from the tests a lot of the reviews (including DC Rainmaker). Main limitation seems to be that it's one sided, but I'm OK with that.

StillGoing

Barry Badrinath wrote:

philthy3 wrote:

Grill wrote:

You'll likely have to pay it and you should expect up to £100 in fees. TBH you can get a Quarq or P2M for that price, so personally I wouldn't bother.

Got to agree with Grill and find a crank based power meter second hand or new if you can afford it. Pedal systems restrict you to one type of pedal and useless if you prefer Speedplay. 4iiii is single sided and a faff to be having to send a crank arm off in exchange for another when you could get a second hand P2M for similar money and a lot less hassle.

For my uses I think I'd be OK with single arm crank and don't really want to go above £500. Ideally would rather go new as well for warranty etc.

You may not see the point of having a two sided measurement now, but should you later decide you do want an idea of L/R balance, you won't get it with a single sided system. There are better systems than 4iiii out there and you shouldn't be put off by going 2nd hand, especially with the likes of P2M. Their back up service is readily available although I have never needed it.

I looked at 4iiii when it was first announced, paid for the device and waited. And waited. And waited. There were so many glitches with the thing I eventually cancelled the order and went down the P2M route on the advice of Grill on here. Never looked back.

With 4iiii isn't it still the case that you send the crank arm off and they eventually send you one back. It won't be your's, but one in stock. Your's, as I understood it, will be refurbished and have a pod glued on ready to be sent out to the next customer. So in effect, you're getting a 2nd hand crank arm back.

harry-s

The crank I got back was mine.
There may be many others like it, but that crank was mine.

barry_badrinath

Harry-S wrote:

The crank I got back was mine.
There may be many others like it, but that crank was mine.

Yeah I'd want to make sure it was my brand new crank coming back!