Are the police useless ?

tangled_metal · January 2017

Was it Blairs obsessive targets culture that did this or were the targets and bean counters already there before his day?

bompington · January 2017

bompington wrote:

So does anyone actually know what the stats are for the number of police officers over, say, the last 20 years? It must have halved or something, right? Maybe down by ¾?

So, did anybody get this right?
Basically, the number of police officers (in England and Wales - proportions work out very similar in Scotland) was:
125,800 in 1994
126,800 in 2015

Some cuts, eh?

And given that crime is down significantly over the same period - not just by police counting, but any other method of data gathering - it does make you wonder what's going on a bit.

My guess is that it's firstly paperwork, and secondly that the police are no longer allowed to just do things their own way. Which obviously means good things and bad things: where's the line between a good old-fashioned "stern word in the ear

" and a good old-fashioned "stitch up a local bad 'un and give him a going over"?

kingstongraham · January 2017

davebradswmb wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

thats not really true through is it? we used to be able to fund basic Policing and the NHS.

Demography, isn't it? The answer to every question about why can't we afford what we used to.

Not entirely. We have gone from being one of the highest taxed countries in the western world to one of the lowest. I'm not saying we should return to early 70s levels of taxation, but there must be some room in the middle.

Is that true across all forms of direct and indirect taxation, or are you talking about top rate of income tax?

rick_chasey · January 2017

bompington wrote:

bompington wrote:

So does anyone actually know what the stats are for the number of police officers over, say, the last 20 years? It must have halved or something, right? Maybe down by ¾?

So, did anybody get this right?
Basically, the number of police officers (in England and Wales - proportions work out very similar in Scotland) was:
125,800 in 1994
126,800 in 2015

Number of police is usually measured as a proportion of the population.

napoleond · January 2017

We had 8000 about 10 years ago.
About 6000 now.

Steve-XcT · January 2017

Slowbike wrote:

When he's old enough I'll tell my son to do what I did - stand up for yourself - warn them then act.
Bully confronted me outside the school gates - I was on my bike - I got off, picked up my bike, threw it at him, picked it up off the ground leaving the bully on the ground - rode off. He didn't bother me again. I got into enough trouble without his help!

And as I learned when at school you just have to fight back... preferably hurt them .. you don't need to actually win.
(though its satisfying)

Steve-XcT wrote:

When I was a kid we had a beat copper... and for 90% of the stuff we did as kids it involved being dragged home by the ear and a lathering off my mum. Now both my mum and the copper would probably be in court for assault....

Nope - not quite right - Mum would ball out the copper for hurting her poor innocent child then take the force to court for damages and sell the whole story to the papers.

It would seem that the police only react if theres a strong possibility of a conviction - you can only blame those in charge as they set the priorities.

Yes but then who's in charge ???
I mean technically that's the electorate.... (us)

The issue is manipulation of the electorate and probably not helped by modern media....

tangledmetal wrote:

Was it Blairs obsessive targets culture that did this or were the targets and bean counters already there before his day?

The problem wasn't exclusive but made worse...
The rot really started from my perspective under Thatcher. Using the police in various civil protests such as poll tax and miners strikes actually turned them into political creatures at least top down....

Blairs beancounting did nothing to help.... but equally IMHO it was the generations brought up with manipulated expectations that is the major problem...

To illustrate:

So, did anybody get this right?
Basically, the number of police officers (in England and Wales - proportions work out very similar in Scotland) was:
125,800 in 1994
126,800 in 2015

Some cuts, eh?

bompington wrote:

And given that crime is down significantly over the same period - not just by police counting, but any other method of data gathering - it does make you wonder what's going on a bit.

My guess is that it's firstly paperwork, and secondly that the police are no longer allowed to just do things their own way. Which obviously means good things and bad things: where's the line between a good old-fashioned "stern word in the ear " and a good old-fashioned "stitch up a local bad 'un and give him a going over"?

No reported and recorded crime is down .... that's got nothing to do with actual crime.
Like the OP I wouldn't even report most crime... and the police make reporting it as difficult as possible...

I remember a decade ago phoning the police as someone on a motor scooter had just put a brick through a parked car window... they refused to log it, refused to take the scooter reg... and of course the car was then robbed later that night

Stolen bike.... again next to impossible to report

My flat got burgled... I called them (and the station is 100m away) and the burglar could still have been in the building given the mexican peso's he'd stolen were still on the stairs where they had been thrown away... it took them 4 days to respond with SOCA... when I insisted.

A week later it turned out the fingerprints they found belonged to a "dangerous criminal"... on their top wanted list...
I then got a whole team from some special task force 9 days after the incident!
They apparently apprehended the guy....

In the meantime I had been stopped and searched for carrying a "dangerous weapon" (a Digital SLR) and I don't mean self loading rifle! The officer in question spent as much time poking me with a pen in the kidneys trying to get me to react so they could charge me with something as actually searching me for whatever they thought they were searching for....

They also stole the paper (some old receipt in my pocket) on which I'd written their badge numbers as apparently I wasn't allowed their badge numbers as I was being searched under the prevention of terrorism act (for having a camera at the British Museum)...

When I then got contacted by their special team for the "dangerous criminal" they were taking to court I refused to press charges unless they sacked the officer who had assaulted me. I told them I wasn't interested in helping them unless they successfully removed this dangerous criminal from the police force and "looking into it" was not good enough!

The irony was I was searched as part of a statistics fiddling exercise! I was stopped and searched because I'm white and they had an operation at the British Museum where their goal was to stop and search as many white people as possible to create some stats... for a laugh I tested it ... I was meeting a black female friend at the BM and they were doing the same exercise... so we both walked seperately at the police doing the searching both with cameras ... they homed in on me and then as planned my friend came up and grabbed me by the arm and gave me a huge kiss.... and the second they saw we were together the police practically did a 180...

I'd no longer report almost any crime to the police.... just like millions....all its doing is letting them create false statistics.

From my perspective they have created this mistrust themselves....

I used to see someone spread-eagled against a wall and assume they must have done something .. now my first thought is what they are being stitched up for!

RallyBiker · January 2017

Rick Chasey wrote:

#Torycuts

cretin

andcp · January 2017

bompington wrote:

Basically, the number of police officers (in England and Wales - proportions work out very similar in Scotland) was:
125,800 in 1994
126,800 in 2015

Total police officer strength, England and Wales 2004-2016
2004 138,468
2005 141,059
2006 141,523
2007 141,892
2008 141,861
2009 143,770
2010 143,734 (387 people per officer)
2011 139,109
2012 134,099
2013 129,584
2014 127,909
2015 126,818
2016 124,066 (466 people per officer)

I estimate there were 406 people per officer in 1994

Source https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... N_cxAab_tg

This is also worth a read - https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... march-2015

mamba80 · January 2017

RallyBiker wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

#Torycuts

cretin

2010 143,734 (387 people per officer)
2011 139,109
2012 134,099
2013 129,584
2014 127,909
2015 126,818
2016 124,066 (466 people per officer)

i dont know who has been in power these last 6 years, Labour i assume from your answer.

napoleond · January 2017

It's skewed by the met though. They were recruiting when every other force had to shrink.

finchy · January 2017

Steve-XcT wrote:

bompington wrote:

So, did anybody get this right?
Basically, the number of police officers (in England and Wales - proportions work out very similar in Scotland) was:
125,800 in 1994
126,800 in 2015

Some cuts, eh?

And given that crime is down significantly over the same period - not just by police counting, but any other method of data gathering - it does make you wonder what's going on a bit.

My guess is that it's firstly paperwork, and secondly that the police are no longer allowed to just do things their own way. Which obviously means good things and bad things: where's the line between a good old-fashioned "stern word in the ear " and a good old-fashioned "stitch up a local bad 'un and give him a going over"?

No reported and recorded crime is down .... that's got nothing to do with actual crime.
Like the OP I wouldn't even report most crime... and the police make reporting it as difficult as possible...

Crime surveys (which aren't subject to under-reporting and changing methodologies) also show a massive fall in crime rates.

I've heard several explanations for this, it might be any one of these, it's more likely a combination:

Falling alcohol consumption and longer opening hours, leading to less binge drinking
Falling drug use and improved treatment
Removal of lead from petrol
Ageing population
Consumer goods are cheaper, so not worth the risk of nicking
Improved private and public security systems (CCTV, etc.)
Improved social safety net
Improved criminal rehabilitation
Improved policing

There might be other factors, such as people becoming generally friendlier, people spending more time indoors, etc. I don't know why, but people seem to be very resistant to the idea of society becoming safer. :?

Steve-XcT · January 2017

finchy wrote:

Steve-XcT wrote:

bompington wrote:

So, did anybody get this right?
Basically, the number of police officers (in England and Wales - proportions work out very similar in Scotland) was:
125,800 in 1994
126,800 in 2015

Some cuts, eh?

And given that crime is down significantly over the same period - not just by police counting, but any other method of data gathering - it does make you wonder what's going on a bit.

My guess is that it's firstly paperwork, and secondly that the police are no longer allowed to just do things their own way. Which obviously means good things and bad things: where's the line between a good old-fashioned "stern word in the ear " and a good old-fashioned "stitch up a local bad 'un and give him a going over"?

No reported and recorded crime is down .... that's got nothing to do with actual crime.
Like the OP I wouldn't even report most crime... and the police make reporting it as difficult as possible...

Crime surveys (which aren't subject to under-reporting and changing methodologies) also show a massive fall in crime rates.

I've heard several explanations for this, it might be any one of these, it's more likely a combination:

Falling alcohol consumption and longer opening hours, leading to less binge drinking
Falling drug use and improved treatment
Removal of lead from petrol
Ageing population
Consumer goods are cheaper, so not worth the risk of nicking
Improved private and public security systems (CCTV, etc.)
Improved social safety net
Improved criminal rehabilitation
Improved policing

There might be other factors, such as people becoming generally friendlier, people spending more time indoors, etc. I don't know why, but people seem to be very resistant to the idea of society becoming safer. :?

Most people have their daily experience regardless of what the police, politicians or crime surveys say.
I think the most interesting is "Consumer goods are cheaper, so not worth the risk of nicking" ...

I find it interesting as it's consumer goods not what we need to live... It's not nicking a loaf of bread to stay alive or feed the children ...

I suspect much of this consumer item has reduced but it's not anything to do with improved policing... and perhaps the internet has also played a part... ??? I'm more than convinced retail crime may have fallen but that in itself only directly affects a small part of the population who work in retail

In the periods that were being discussed (1994-2015) though I don't think we can point to falling alcohol consumption and less binge drinking.... indeed quite the opposite perhaps with 2012ish marking a turning point ?

As for falling drug use I'd say the same trend especially if you ignore cannabis from the equation???

My perspective on this is perhaps due to spending most of 1994-2015 outside the UK....
Certainly from my perspective I was not being offered hard drugs in the local pub or on the street in 1994.... but when I came back in 2007 it was extremely common....I'd liken getting hold of hard drugs in London in 2007 to having a pizza delivered... people were picking up the mobile, making a call and having hard drugs delivered where the busy schedule of the dealer fits in.... one dealer must have been committing hundreds of crimes a week but the people buying them were hardly going to report that as a crime.

As to "improved policing" ??? Improved in what way?
I'm sure they have improved their ticking boxes ... but that doesn't equate to improved policing.
Refusing to log a crime and refusing to respond is hardly improved....
Most people I know barely think to even bother trying to report a crime based on their past experiences.
Perhaps part of this is also due to t'internet as well ???

When someone broke into my partners car a month ago and stole the stereo I just got a new window of ebay and repaired the car....
I'm not going to report it to the police because
a) they already knew as they had a CCTV camera
b) they are probably already busy deleting the footage so they don't record it so will refuse to log it
c) they will then doubtless share the information with the insurers even though we didn't bother claiming

Noone has asked me about a crime survey but if they did I'm really not going to bother

"Improved private and public security systems (CCTV, etc.)"
Perhaps private.... public security CCTV however is under the control of the police.
When they kill someone the footage mysteriously goes missing or for technical reasons was "not recorded"

How many security cameras "failed to record De Menzies" ? Why were the security cameras turned off when the police murdered Ian Tomlinson? Of course these are the "big items".... how much footage gets deleted when the police assault someone for no reason other than their amusement? To make matters worse it's now illegal to actually film the police committing a crime (or not).

bompington · January 2017

Steve-XcT wrote:

Most people have their daily experience regardless of what the police, politicians or crime surveys say.

Well, yes. And mine is very different from the "daily experience" that you describe, so that makes me just as right as you then? Did you get your allegation about Tomlinson from your daily experience then - you must have been there, right? or are you choosing to believe one version of events because it fits your prejudices?

andcp · January 2017

Steve-XcT wrote:

Most people I know barely think to even bother trying to report a crime based on their past experiences.

Most people I know would do the opposite, and thankfully, where I live we would get a response.

Steve-XcT wrote:

When someone broke into my partners car a month ago and stole the stereo I just got a new window of ebay and repaired the car....
I'm not going to report it to the police because
a) they already knew as they had a CCTV camera
b) they are probably already busy deleting the footage so they don't record it so will refuse to log it
c) they will then doubtless share the information with the insurers even though we didn't bother claiming

a) CCTV may have been looking the other way
b) Do you honestly believe this happens? honestly?
c) No they wouldn't. Fact.

Steve-XcT wrote:

Noone has asked me about a crime survey but if they did I'm really not going to bother

Then you are (cliche alert) part of the problem, not part of the solution. "I think the police stink but I'm damned if I'm going to tell them" is not helpful for improving the police if there is a need. Moaning about the police on an internet cycling forum will not be much use either, so whatever your issues are, find out who your PCC is and engage with them. I'm not a fan of PCC's but the guy round our way actively encourages people to attend meetings with him - try it, it may work

Steve-XcT wrote:

How many security cameras "failed to record De Menzies" ? Why were the security cameras turned off when the police murdered Ian Tomlinson? Of course these are the "big items".... how much footage gets deleted when the police assault someone for no reason other than their amusement? To make matters worse it's now illegal to actually film the police committing a crime (or not).

De Menzies I cannot comment about, but Ian Tomlinson was murdered? You and I have somewhat different views on this.

TL:DR - engage with your PCC/police, don't stand at the sides and slag them off. How about joining the Specials to get first hand experience of what's happening?.
eta: - Just to be very clear, I have no connections with the police. None.

finchy · January 2017

Steve-XcT wrote:

finchy wrote:

Steve-XcT wrote:

bompington wrote:

So, did anybody get this right?
Basically, the number of police officers (in England and Wales - proportions work out very similar in Scotland) was:
125,800 in 1994
126,800 in 2015

Some cuts, eh?

And given that crime is down significantly over the same period - not just by police counting, but any other method of data gathering - it does make you wonder what's going on a bit.

My guess is that it's firstly paperwork, and secondly that the police are no longer allowed to just do things their own way. Which obviously means good things and bad things: where's the line between a good old-fashioned "stern word in the ear " and a good old-fashioned "stitch up a local bad 'un and give him a going over"?

No reported and recorded crime is down .... that's got nothing to do with actual crime.
Like the OP I wouldn't even report most crime... and the police make reporting it as difficult as possible...

Crime surveys (which aren't subject to under-reporting and changing methodologies) also show a massive fall in crime rates.

I've heard several explanations for this, it might be any one of these, it's more likely a combination:

Falling alcohol consumption and longer opening hours, leading to less binge drinking
Falling drug use and improved treatment
Removal of lead from petrol
Ageing population
Consumer goods are cheaper, so not worth the risk of nicking
Improved private and public security systems (CCTV, etc.)
Improved social safety net
Improved criminal rehabilitation
Improved policing

There might be other factors, such as people becoming generally friendlier, people spending more time indoors, etc. I don't know why, but people seem to be very resistant to the idea of society becoming safer. :?

Most people have their daily experience regardless of what the police, politicians or crime surveys say.
I think the most interesting is "Consumer goods are cheaper, so not worth the risk of nicking" ...

I find it interesting as it's consumer goods not what we need to live... It's not nicking a loaf of bread to stay alive or feed the children ...

I suspect much of this consumer item has reduced but it's not anything to do with improved policing... and perhaps the internet has also played a part... ??? I'm more than convinced retail crime may have fallen but that in itself only directly affects a small part of the population who work in retail

In the periods that were being discussed (1994-2015) though I don't think we can point to falling alcohol consumption and less binge drinking.... indeed quite the opposite perhaps with 2012ish marking a turning point ?

As for falling drug use I'd say the same trend especially if you ignore cannabis from the equation???

My perspective on this is perhaps due to spending most of 1994-2015 outside the UK....
Certainly from my perspective I was not being offered hard drugs in the local pub or on the street in 1994.... but when I came back in 2007 it was extremely common....I'd liken getting hold of hard drugs in London in 2007 to having a pizza delivered... people were picking up the mobile, making a call and having hard drugs delivered where the busy schedule of the dealer fits in.... one dealer must have been committing hundreds of crimes a week but the people buying them were hardly going to report that as a crime.

As to "improved policing" ??? Improved in what way?
I'm sure they have improved their ticking boxes ... but that doesn't equate to improved policing.
Refusing to log a crime and refusing to respond is hardly improved....
Most people I know barely think to even bother trying to report a crime based on their past experiences.
Perhaps part of this is also due to t'internet as well ???

When someone broke into my partners car a month ago and stole the stereo I just got a new window of ebay and repaired the car....
I'm not going to report it to the police because
a) they already knew as they had a CCTV camera
b) they are probably already busy deleting the footage so they don't record it so will refuse to log it
c) they will then doubtless share the information with the insurers even though we didn't bother claiming

Noone has asked me about a crime survey but if they did I'm really not going to bother

"Improved private and public security systems (CCTV, etc.)"
Perhaps private.... public security CCTV however is under the control of the police.
When they kill someone the footage mysteriously goes missing or for technical reasons was "not recorded"

How many security cameras "failed to record De Menzies" ? Why were the security cameras turned off when the police murdered Ian Tomlinson? Of course these are the "big items".... how much footage gets deleted when the police assault someone for no reason other than their amusement? To make matters worse it's now illegal to actually film the police committing a crime (or not).

Crime surveys are just calling people and asking them whether or not they've been the victim of a crime. The main one in the UK is the British Crime Survey, and although it obviously has its flaws, is generally respected as a good source of information about crime.

And you're basically ignoring the fact that we're talking here about CHANGES over time. The police weren't perfect 30 years ago and aren't perfect now. But do you think that Britain is getting safer or less safe? And why?

I'm working, so haven't got time to go into too much detail, but my point about goods becoming cheaper means that if someone nicks your car radio or TV, they're less likely to get good money for it down at the local pub, so the reward for theft isn't as great as it was before.

Steve-XcT · January 2017

Andcp wrote:

Steve-XcT wrote:

Most people I know barely think to even bother trying to report a crime based on their past experiences.

Most people I know would do the opposite, and thankfully, where I live we would get a response.

Steve-XcT wrote:

When someone broke into my partners car a month ago and stole the stereo I just got a new window of ebay and repaired the car....
I'm not going to report it to the police because
a) they already knew as they had a CCTV camera
b) they are probably already busy deleting the footage so they don't record it so will refuse to log it
c) they will then doubtless share the information with the insurers even though we didn't bother claiming

a) CCTV may have been looking the other way
b) Do you honestly believe this happens? honestly?
c) No they wouldn't. Fact.

Steve-XcT wrote:

Noone has asked me about a crime survey but if they did I'm really not going to bother

Then you are (cliche alert) part of the problem, not part of the solution. "I think the police stink but I'm damned if I'm going to tell them" is not helpful for improving the police if there is a need. Moaning about the police on an internet cycling forum will not be much use either, so whatever your issues are, find out who your PCC is and engage with them. I'm not a fan of PCC's but the guy round our way actively encourages people to attend meetings with him - try it, it may work

Steve-XcT wrote:

How many security cameras "failed to record De Menzies" ? Why were the security cameras turned off when the police murdered Ian Tomlinson? Of course these are the "big items".... how much footage gets deleted when the police assault someone for no reason other than their amusement? To make matters worse it's now illegal to actually film the police committing a crime (or not).

De Menzies I cannot comment about, but Ian Tomlinson was murdered? You and I have somewhat different views on this.

TL:DR - engage with your PCC/police, don't stand at the sides and slag them off. How about joining the Specials to get first hand experience of what's happening?.
eta: - Just to be very clear, I have no connections with the police. None.

The bit in bold thousands of times a day..... the new policing is about statistics and how to manipulate them.

for Ian Tomlinson ... I simply cannot believe that every camera was turned off by accident to directly co-incide with a planned demonstration.

To look at this in reverse, if Ian Tomlinson had been a fit bloke who's hobbies were cage fighting and as a result of him resisting the police officer died to you REALLY believe there would have been no footage from the dozens of cameras in that vicinity ???

Ironically had this not been filmed by the banker and sent directly to the newspapers do you really think any police investigation would have taken place?

The problem with "public CCTV" is it's not public... and the very people that want to manipulate statistics are able to control what is released vs deleted.

It wasn't for a few months that I found my stop and search was part of a statistics manipulation exercise when the British Museum and British Library were persuaded to let the Met perform searches.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... and-search

Later in an parliamentary enquiry Lord Carlile found that this was purely to manipulate statistics but his enquiry was unfortunately unable to find evidence against specific high level officers that had planned and instigated as ... it had disappeared....

Ignoring everything else I and everyone should really be very disturbed at the patterns of disappearing evidence ...
You might not wish to comment on De Menzies but you can't believe every single camera was not working ....(especially as some was released and then withdrawn.... and then it's existence denied....)

When I lived on the Winstanley estate everyone knew there was going to be a gang gunfight one night... like I was in the off license and the bloke reminded me "don't forget to stay in tonight"

Then as thousands knew there was a gun fight, one kids get killed.... and the next day the police were pretending they didn't know it was going to happen... and they have no idea who did it or why....

EVERYONE on the estate knew who it was BEFORE the incident took place but the police would never even enter the estate at night ... regardless of any crime being reported or not!

bompington · January 2017

Well, that just about proves it then.

Now all we need is some evidence.

apreading · January 2017

Steve-XcT wrote:

Andcp wrote:

Steve-XcT wrote:

Most people I know barely think to even bother trying to report a crime based on their past experiences.

Most people I know would do the opposite, and thankfully, where I live we would get a response.

Steve-XcT wrote:

When someone broke into my partners car a month ago and stole the stereo I just got a new window of ebay and repaired the car....
I'm not going to report it to the police because
a) they already knew as they had a CCTV camera
b) they are probably already busy deleting the footage so they don't record it so will refuse to log it
c) they will then doubtless share the information with the insurers even though we didn't bother claiming

a) CCTV may have been looking the other way
b) Do you honestly believe this happens? honestly?
c) No they wouldn't. Fact.

Steve-XcT wrote:

Noone has asked me about a crime survey but if they did I'm really not going to bother

Then you are (cliche alert) part of the problem, not part of the solution. "I think the police stink but I'm damned if I'm going to tell them" is not helpful for improving the police if there is a need. Moaning about the police on an internet cycling forum will not be much use either, so whatever your issues are, find out who your PCC is and engage with them. I'm not a fan of PCC's but the guy round our way actively encourages people to attend meetings with him - try it, it may work

Steve-XcT wrote:

How many security cameras "failed to record De Menzies" ? Why were the security cameras turned off when the police murdered Ian Tomlinson? Of course these are the "big items".... how much footage gets deleted when the police assault someone for no reason other than their amusement? To make matters worse it's now illegal to actually film the police committing a crime (or not).

De Menzies I cannot comment about, but Ian Tomlinson was murdered? You and I have somewhat different views on this.

TL:DR - engage with your PCC/police, don't stand at the sides and slag them off. How about joining the Specials to get first hand experience of what's happening?.
eta: - Just to be very clear, I have no connections with the police. None.

The bit in bold thousands of times a day..... the new policing is about statistics and how to manipulate them.

for Ian Tomlinson ... I simply cannot believe that every camera was turned off by accident to directly co-incide with a planned demonstration.

To look at this in reverse, if Ian Tomlinson had been a fit bloke who's hobbies were cage fighting and as a result of him resisting the police officer died to you REALLY believe there would have been no footage from the dozens of cameras in that vicinity ???

Ironically had this not been filmed by the banker and sent directly to the newspapers do you really think any police investigation would have taken place?

The problem with "public CCTV" is it's not public... and the very people that want to manipulate statistics are able to control what is released vs deleted.

It wasn't for a few months that I found my stop and search was part of a statistics manipulation exercise when the British Museum and British Library were persuaded to let the Met perform searches.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... and-search

Later in an parliamentary enquiry Lord Carlile found that this was purely to manipulate statistics but his enquiry was unfortunately unable to find evidence against specific high level officers that had planned and instigated as ... it had disappeared....

Ignoring everything else I and everyone should really be very disturbed at the patterns of disappearing evidence ...
You might not wish to comment on De Menzies but you can't believe every single camera was not working ....(especially as some was released and then withdrawn.... and then it's existence denied....)

When I lived on the Winstanley estate everyone knew there was going to be a gang gunfight one night... like I was in the off license and the bloke reminded me "don't forget to stay in tonight"

Then as thousands knew there was a gun fight, one kids get killed.... and the next day the police were pretending they didn't know it was going to happen... and they have no idea who did it or why....

EVERYONE on the estate knew who it was BEFORE the incident took place but the police would never even enter the estate at night ... regardless of any crime being reported or not!

This all says far more about your personal bias than it does about the reality of policing in the UK. Its complete and utter fantasy.

For a start, alot of the CCTV used by the police in london actually comes from Transport for London, London Underground, Rail Operators and Stations - Police have no control over it. And access to police CCTV is shared between the Met, City of London and BTP amongst others so hiding something would require collusion of more than one organisation.

And you knew about this gun fight - did you tell the police? did everyone else not tell the police just as you didnt? So how would they know? Did any witnesses come forward to testify who did it? If not then the police have no proof so they cant say who did it.

The Police are so heavily scrutinised and regulated these days that there is no way they could or would act like you seem to think, even if they wanted to, which they dont anyway.

Crazyjenkins01 · January 2017

Dont forget, the police and CPS wont want to prosecute unless they are pretty sure of conviction. I can see the headlines now "Police wasting taxpayers money on spurious cases"...

tangled_metal · January 2017

There's a guy on another cycling forum that sounds just like you. He's a conspiracy nut though. At least you have solid evidence to back your conspiracies up with.

napoleond · January 2017

another busy day at the office for me today, so much cctv footage to delete.

Some pretty warped ideas of what the police actually get up to alluded to above.

ballysmate · January 2017

Steve-XcT wrote:

Andcp wrote:

Steve-XcT wrote:

Most people I know barely think to even bother trying to report a crime based on their past experiences.

Most people I know would do the opposite, and thankfully, where I live we would get a response.

Steve-XcT wrote:

When someone broke into my partners car a month ago and stole the stereo I just got a new window of ebay and repaired the car....
I'm not going to report it to the police because
a) they already knew as they had a CCTV camera
b) they are probably already busy deleting the footage so they don't record it so will refuse to log it
c) they will then doubtless share the information with the insurers even though we didn't bother claiming

a) CCTV may have been looking the other way
b) Do you honestly believe this happens? honestly?
c) No they wouldn't. Fact.

Steve-XcT wrote:

Noone has asked me about a crime survey but if they did I'm really not going to bother

Then you are (cliche alert) part of the problem, not part of the solution. "I think the police stink but I'm damned if I'm going to tell them" is not helpful for improving the police if there is a need. Moaning about the police on an internet cycling forum will not be much use either, so whatever your issues are, find out who your PCC is and engage with them. I'm not a fan of PCC's but the guy round our way actively encourages people to attend meetings with him - try it, it may work

Steve-XcT wrote:

How many security cameras "failed to record De Menzies" ? Why were the security cameras turned off when the police murdered Ian Tomlinson? Of course these are the "big items".... how much footage gets deleted when the police assault someone for no reason other than their amusement? To make matters worse it's now illegal to actually film the police committing a crime (or not).

De Menzies I cannot comment about, but Ian Tomlinson was murdered? You and I have somewhat different views on this.

TL:DR - engage with your PCC/police, don't stand at the sides and slag them off. How about joining the Specials to get first hand experience of what's happening?.
eta: - Just to be very clear, I have no connections with the police. None.

The bit in bold thousands of times a day..... the new policing is about statistics and how to manipulate them.

for Ian Tomlinson ... I simply cannot believe that every camera was turned off by accident to directly co-incide with a planned demonstration.

To look at this in reverse, if Ian Tomlinson had been a fit bloke who's hobbies were cage fighting and as a result of him resisting the police officer died to you REALLY believe there would have been no footage from the dozens of cameras in that vicinity ???

Ironically had this not been filmed by the banker and sent directly to the newspapers do you really think any police investigation would have taken place?

The problem with "public CCTV" is it's not public... and the very people that want to manipulate statistics are able to control what is released vs deleted.

It wasn't for a few months that I found my stop and search was part of a statistics manipulation exercise when the British Museum and British Library were persuaded to let the Met perform searches.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... and-search

Later in an parliamentary enquiry Lord Carlile found that this was purely to manipulate statistics but his enquiry was unfortunately unable to find evidence against specific high level officers that had planned and instigated as ... it had disappeared....

Ignoring everything else I and everyone should really be very disturbed at the patterns of disappearing evidence ...
You might not wish to comment on De Menzies but you can't believe every single camera was not working ....(especially as some was released and then withdrawn.... and then it's existence denied....)

When I lived on the Winstanley estate everyone knew there was going to be a gang gunfight one night... like I was in the off license and the bloke reminded me "don't forget to stay in tonight"

Then as thousands knew there was a gun fight, one kids get killed.... and the next day the police were pretending they didn't know it was going to happen... and they have no idea who did it or why....

EVERYONE on the estate knew who it was BEFORE the incident took place but the police would never even enter the estate at night ... regardless of any crime being reported or not!

Welcome back Manc!!

hamish_mctavish · January 2017

Steve-XcT wrote:

Andcp wrote:

Steve-XcT wrote:

When someone broke into my partners car a month ago and stole the stereo I just got a new window of ebay and repaired the car....
I'm not going to report it to the police because
a) they already knew as they had a CCTV camera
b) they are probably already busy deleting the footage so they don't record it so will refuse to log it
c) they will then doubtless share the information with the insurers even though we didn't bother claiming

a) CCTV may have been looking the other way
b) Do you honestly believe this happens? honestly?
c) No they wouldn't. Fact.

The bit in bold thousands of times a day..... the new policing is about statistics and how to manipulate them.

I think I've got this right - you maintain that the police employ people to monitor cctv cameras and, when they have evidence of a crime, rather than attempt to arrest the perpetrators and try to reduce crime by catching criminals, they instead reduce the evidence of crime by deleting cctv records and that this is driven by a desire to manipulate statistics?

How do you think this even works, are all the cctv recordings sent off to some office where the statistics people count the number of crimes and generate crime statistics that way? Do you think that if the police hadn't deleted the breaking of your partner's car window then it would have been recorded as a crime?

Perhaps if you or your partner had reported the crime then it would have been recorded as a crime and you would have foiled the police and their sinister army of cctv deleters.

wiznaeme · January 2017

I think street disorder and violence has reduced because of technology; in a number of forms. When Playstation (etc) became attractive to some of the young people who spent their evenings standing on street corners they went indoors and no longer met people on the street to fight with. When public space CCTV first started it was rarely looked at other than as something for the police to perhaps respond to crimes in progress, etc but later when they started looking on a Monday morning at what happened on Friday and Saturday nights and then taking people to court a lot of local youths started to stay indoors (gaming?).
In respect of breaking into cars. Stereos used to be very expensive relative to income but now most people use Bluetooth from phones etc. I can't remember someone telling me that a car was broken into locally. (And my friends stay across Glasgow). I read of cars being stolen occasionally but this is normally after the keys are stolen first. Again this is to do with technology making the thefts harder, not the actions of the police.

andcp · January 2017

Steve-XcT wrote:

The bit in bold thousands of times a day..... the new policing is about statistics and how to manipulate them.

You may have a point here - but I suspect the police are not setting the targets, I guess they'll come from central government or the local PCC

Steve-XcT wrote:

...Ian Tomlinson ... I simply cannot believe that every camera was turned off by accident to directly co-incide with a planned demonstration.

3 seconds on Google will give you, amongst other things - https://www.theguardian.com/uk/video/20 ... nson-video

Steve-XcT wrote:

It wasn't for a few months that I found my stop and search was part of a statistics manipulation exercise when the British Museum and British Library were persuaded to let the Met perform searches.

So you visited a potential terrorist target and you were stopped and searched - is that such a big deal? I'd rather the police were searching people than not - I'd be happy to be searched because I'd think that the Police were trying to do something.

Steve-XcT wrote:

Ignoring everything else I and everyone should really be very disturbed at the patterns of disappearing evidence ...

Genuinely struggling with this - if the evidence has disappeared, how do you know it existed to begin with?

Steve-XcT wrote:

You might not wish to comment on De Menzies...

I didn't say I didn't wish to, I said I couldn't as I am not that familiar with the case (even though I was on the tube that morning) I am familiar with the Tomlinson case as I took an interest. Ian grew up in the same town as me and I knew him, albeit vaguely. Was Ian murdered? no, the officer was found to be not guilty of manslaughter by a jury - that's people like you and I, who had a lot more factual evidence in front of them than we have access to. Did this individual officer act inappropriately? I don't know, I wasn't with him that day.

Steve-XcT wrote:

When I lived on the Winstanley estate everyone knew there was going to be a gang gunfight one night...

Did YOU phone the police? did YOU tip them off?

Anyway did you apply for the Specials yet? Remember, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

webboo · January 2017

Clearly where Steve-XcT lives the Police are doing a poor job as it would appear the use of Crack is rife.

Steve-XcT · January 2017

apreading wrote:

This all says far more about your personal bias than it does about the reality of policing in the UK. Its complete and utter fantasy.

My personal bias is a direct result of interactions with the Police... most specifically the Met.

For a start, alot of the CCTV used by the police in london actually comes from Transport for London, London Underground, Rail Operators and Stations - Police have no control over it. And access to police CCTV is shared between the Met, City of London and BTP amongst others so hiding something would require collusion of more than one organisation.

It's called blackmail ... or simply intimidation but that makes it all the more worrying.
The police should have no control over what is deleted but they obviously manage to exert control....

From the link above... why would the police even ask for the head of media relations not the head of security to conduct a mass stop and search that clearly violates the BM's own security processes???
Bear in mind this was later found by a parliamentary enquiry to create false statistics.
My mind boggles, could it be Miki just went to school with the chief constable or perhaps they just play golf together or perhaps the police have some evidence of Miki caught in illegal acts - who knows why he would breach the Libraries policy or why the police would approach him not the head of security - perhaps that is why he's now on an extended leave of absence ?

The point really is that the police as organisations are no longer anything to do with preventing or solving crime except as a set of Key Performance Indicators... reality has taken a backseat to manipulating data and evidence to meet these KPI's....

The statement, issued by Miki Lentin, head of media relations, strategic marketing and communications of the British Library is as follows.

Monday 23rd February 2009, two police officers from the Metropolitan police service approached British Library security staff at the front entrance and requested Miki Lenton that they could carry out stop and search with members of the public under the Terrorism Act.

The British Library's own security services are responsible for ensuring the safety of our readers and the collections, and any police searches on our premises should be strictly and clearly voluntary. It appears that the correct procedures were not followed in this case and we will be investigating this further.

It is the British Library's policy to ensure the safety and security of our readers and collections at all times. We operate random bag searches at the main customer and staff entrances to the building based on the security advice we receive on a regular basis from the Metropolitan police service.

Due to the British Library's position within the King's Cross area, as well as our proximity to one of the capital's largest transport hubs, St Pancras, the British Library benefits from a proactive and supportive relationship with the Metropolitan police service.

Mr Lentin refused to add anything to this or comment on the unwitting irony of this lapse in the correct procedure. Asked if this was because he was government servant, he declined to comment further.

And you knew about this gun fight - did you tell the police? did everyone else not tell the police just as you didnt? So how would they know? Did any witnesses come forward to testify who did it? If not then the police have no proof so they cant say who did it.

Everyone on an estate of several thousand knew about it... the pubs knew about it, the shops ... if the police were truly unaware it was going to happen it would speak volumes about their incompetence...

but the chance they were unaware it was going to happen seems somewhat less than remote .... when "everyone else is thousands of people" ... of course of those thousands many will have tried reporting incidents before... like when I reported the fridge and TV being thrown out of a 10 story window on the estate when they then turn around and start threatening you when you ask if they are going to send someone onto the estate before someone gets killed..

As I said my personal bias is a result of interactions with the met since 2007 or so...

The Police are so heavily scrutinised and regulated these days that there is no way they could or would act like you seem to think, even if they wanted to, which they dont anyway.

Erm sure and all the cases of serving officers police being involved in extortion, human trafficking, prostitution etc. are the only ones... like no-one ever reported Jimmy Saville to the Police... like no-one colluded at Hillsborough ??

Besides it's not what I think but for example what Lord Carlile wrote as the independent reviewer of anti-terror legislation.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... 509278.pdf

He's hardly known as a soft touch regarding policing (being known as supporting detention without reason for 42 days) yet found that the met police were deliberately setting out to fabricate data on a mass scale.
He then went on that he couldn't name the officers that had instigated the policies and specific operations as "the evidence has disappeared" ...

This is but one example.... but the important part is that the police as organisations have no respect for evidence.
It has become something that is routinely created and destroyed (or just not gathered) at their convenience... be that Hillsborough or your bike being stolen... the fact that many things have become digital seems to make this all the more convenient.

tangled_metal · January 2017

British library or British museum? Not that it matters but you've found something for British library that seems to support s something you said except for the location.

Not important and I'm being pedantic asking. Plus for all i know they next to each other. I've only been there twice as a kid and it's been 14 years or more since I've had the displeasure of having to step foot in London.

One point, this is your experience and view of police. It is an extreme view by large part of the UK population i think. Don't take it personally if people don't believe you, even imply/actually call you a conspiracy nut. My take on police is they're human, they make bad decisions like every one. They're as trustworthy as the population they come from at times, although the majority are decent. All serving and retired police officers I've met have been decent people. This is part of the reason i don't quite believe your view. Sorry if that offends you.

Steve-XcT · January 2017

Andcp wrote:

You may have a point here - but I suspect the police are not setting the targets, I guess they'll come from central government or the local PCC

No they are not setting the targets but that is because the senior positions are political...

3 seconds on Google will give you, amongst other things - https://www.theguardian.com/uk/video/20 ... nson-video

Exactly ... the footage of the numerous criminal events being committed by the police is provided by non-public cameras.... though to be fair that is footage the guardian could get... but nearly all the footage is from individuals phones or from the media cameras present... yet this area has hundreds (perhaps thousands) of CCTV cameras....

It is now illegal for a member of the public to record a police officer committing a crime. This therefore means any footage submitted as evidence is also illegal.

Likewise for De Menzies... every tube carriage and hundreds on the station all mysteriously "weren't working"...

This brings me to the next point....

I didn't say I didn't wish to, I said I couldn't as I am not that familiar with the case (even though I was on the tube that morning) I am familiar with the Tomlinson case as I took an interest. Ian grew up in the same town as me and I knew him, albeit vaguely. Was Ian murdered? no, the officer was found to be not guilty of manslaughter by a jury - that's people like you and I, who had a lot more factual evidence in front of them than we have access to. Did this individual officer act inappropriately? I don't know, I wasn't with him that day.
.....
Genuinely struggling with this - if the evidence has disappeared, how do you know it existed to begin with?

Because you can't instigate an operation without paperwork. That paperwork has disappeared according to Lord Carlile.
In the case of Tomlinson not only were the City Of London's cameras "turned off that day" but so we are meant to believe were hundreds of others...

The Jury had to make a decision based on the evidence available.
That is the basis of our legal system ... but it is one that relies on the chain of custody for evidence.

If that chain of custody is compromised then so is the whole legal process.

So you visited a potential terrorist target and you were stopped and searched - is that such a big deal? I'd rather the police were searching people than not - I'd be happy to be searched because I'd think that the Police were trying to do something.

According to the Met the whole area inside the M25 has been subject to a threat and elevated to the level of stop and search without suspicion since the legislation was enacted ... the Acts basically says a "designated area" can be designated as such for a maximum of 30 days.... it is as presented to Parliament a very special measure

This is what Parliament voted on....not how the Chief Constable has implemented it....

The chief constable however has interpreted a designated area as the whole remit of the met and renewed this every 30 days until after the Carlile report....

The Carlile report goes on that these specific stop and searches carried out as operations had nothing to do with anything except creating false statistics.

because I'd think that the Police were trying to do something

Yes.... exactly.... but the legislation specifically says they do not need reasonable grounds or suspicion.... exactly why this was a limited and designated area and for a maximum of 30 days....

What Lord Carlile found and published was a group of officers had on multiple occasions been told to stop people in certain places.
100% of the recorded stop and searches in these operations (of which there were hundreds) were on white people...
His interpretation as QC is that this would be impossible unless the officers were specifically told to only search based on ethnicity which is clearly illegal.... the reasons and chain of evidence for these operations has all disappeared.... or never existed and non of the officers involved would give a written statement either way???

Steve-XcT · January 2017

Tangled Metal wrote:

British library or British museum? Not that it matters but you've found something for British library that seems to support s something you said except for the location.

Not important and I'm being pedantic asking. Plus for all i know they next to each other. I've only been there twice as a kid and it's been 14 years or more since I've had the displeasure of having to step foot in London.

No they are actually a couple of miles apart.... the Report concentrates on the British Library (in terms of the investigation carried out) but also mentions the British Museum as the same things happening but in less detail....

The point really is the Met brazenly set up illegal operations knowing nothing would happen. That noone could be pinpointed as having set up these operations and issued orders.... that not a single officer involved would commit to paper their orders is I find very disturbing???

The Carlile report isn't specific to this.... indeed it's mention at all in the review of s44 is used as an example ... but it is very worrying in that the Met feel no compunction to preserve the chain of evidence... and are mostly immune to consequences so long as non of the officers involved is willing to stand up and say what their orders were.

One point, this is your experience and view of police. It is an extreme view by large part of the UK population i think. Don't take it personally if people don't believe you, even imply/actually call you a conspiracy nut. My take on police is they're human, they make bad decisions like every one. They're as trustworthy as the population they come from at times, although the majority are decent. All serving and retired police officers I've met have been decent people. This is part of the reason i don't quite believe your view. Sorry if that offends you.

This isn't about the individuals.... it's about the organisations.
Most officers a decent people... but they are people, have families and are subject to being bullied.

Because of the position they are in they are subject to internal pressure to act against their decency from internal bullying to promotion to being given the worst shifts... (A friend was drafted into central London during the poll tax riots and had a terrifying experience - the police van he was in being set alight with him inside and he's told me he's been threatened with finding himself in similar duties unless he tows the line...

Are the police useless ?

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