London - Edinburgh - London 2017

thomasmorris

So... thinking of giving this a go, but have a couple of questions

1) what do you do about spare clothes, just carry them all in panniers?

2) what do you do about charging batteries for lights and GPS? Dynamo? Spares?

3) What general advice would you have if you've done it before?

marcusjb

You will have 2 bag drops. So have clean shorts in those, any special foods you like and job done. I haven't looked at the options for this year, but 2013 I had a bag at 400/1000 km and a bag at the 700km turn. Worked out perfectly. Did not need the bag at 400km, but clean shorts at 700 and then 1000km was just about perfect.

You should obviously carry a rain jacket and spares/tools with you and depending on how hot or cold you get, and how fast you are, any options for extra clothing you might need (knee and arm warmers for night riding etc).

Charging - dynamo is a good option as it powers lights at night and charges stuff up during the day. That said, with the above bag drops, a couple of £15 power packs and you'll be fine keeping a garmin going (a 5000mAh power pack is easily enough for a 600). Again, you can leave some AA batteries for lights in those bag drops as well if you do not have a dynamo.

It is a cracking event, very well organised. Good route.

I am not going to ride it this time, but will be volunteering at one of the controls along the way.

thomasmorris

Thanks

I've got a replaceable cell 4x18650 battery pack for my light, with a USB connection. I was thinking that could charge my garmin, power a light on 300 lumens over night, and I could carry spare replacement cells and maybe charge a little while I sleep.

I guess you don't need a light to get you all the way through night, as you'll be doing some sleeping. And in july it's not dark for very long.

The bag drop sounds good. I could in theory manage with a top tube bag then, even my large saddle bag might be too much? Like you said I'd always carry a rain cape, and probably knee and arm warmers and light gillet. That should be enough in July, with spares in drop bag.

Seriously interested though

Brakeless

If you can get a place go for it. It's probably the easiest big long distance ride in terms of logistics as everything is laid on. Your two bag drops can effectively be 4 as you can visit each drop on the way north and south(unless you use Edinburgh for one of your drops). There are brilliant controls every 120k (ish) with proper food, most have sleeping arrangements, all have brilliant helpers. You only really need to think about what clothing to carry as you're never actually that far from a control. I did it in 2013 as roughly 4 x 350km days and am aiming to do similar this year. Don't underestimate the weather in Scotland, even in summer if it's wet at night it'll be pretty cold. I'll be carrying a spare LS baselayer and legwarmers, long finger gloves for the northern half.

jasgill

I would be interested in this but am worried about the distances involved etc. Is it achievable for an average cyclist who is used to 100 mile rides a few times a year and 2 or 3 rides a week of between 60 and 70 miles each ? How do you train for something like this ? Think I can get a place through Audax UK. Priority entries are available now for members.
Many thanks for any replies.

ugo.santalucia

jasgill wrote:

I would be interested in this but am worried about the distances involved etc. Is it achievable for an average cyclist who is used to 100 mile rides a few times a year and 2 or 3 rides a week of between 60 and 70 miles each ? How do you train for something like this ? Think I can get a place through Audax UK. Priority entries are available now for members.
Many thanks for any replies.

I am in the same boat, I thought about LEL 2017, but in the end decided I need a couple more years to build into a long distance rider... so it's maybe PBP in 2019

marcusjb

jasgill wrote:

Is it achievable for an average cyclist

YES!

If you want it enough, then that is half the battle.

Long distances at moderate pace is not as hard as it first appears and it's less to do with athleticism than it is to do with mental fortitude.

The mind will give up way before the body!

Stripped down to it's most basic it's around 295km per day. A moving average of 20kph (which is fairly typical) means you have 15 hours of riding and 9 hours of not riding. That gives some reasonable possibilities for a good sleep each night (for good sleep, read 4-5 hours!). Faster rider? More sleep! Slower rider? Well, that's where things start to get tricky and where the true heroes are - those that struggle to get a couple of hours kip a night and just keep on plodding away at it.

In terms of preparation - riding a lot is the big help as it sorts out the two big physical issues:

Comfort - get comfy. If something is niggling after 100 miles, it might start to become that doubt that starts convincing you that you need to quit.

Eating/drinking - plenty of people screw this up badly. Your digestive system takes a beating on long brevets. Learn what you can and can not eat and drink for long days in the saddle. Some people will swear by a full English, whereas that may have some others by the side of the road throwing up afterwards. There's no hard and fast rules. The food on LEL was superb last time though!

If you are thinking about it, then decide if you really want it. If the answer is yes, then you're likely to be good.

In terms of training - you're riding loads more than I generally do! Try and step up to a 300km event in April and a 400km in May/June - both of these distances teach you a lot about being in the saddle for a long time! A 600km is a great application of what you learn on a 300 and 400 and teaches you about waking up, feeling sore and tired, getting back on the bike regardless and that, at some point during the day, it will all start to work again! But if you can not fit a 600km ride in, I would highly recommend a 300 and 400 if you can (though there are plenty of people who complete LEL having never done more than 100 or so miles in a day before - again, if you want it enough, then it's actually more straightforward than it first appears).

ugo.santalucia

marcusjb wrote:

Eating/drinking - plenty of people screw this up badly. Your digestive system takes a beating on long brevets. Learn what you can and can not eat and drink for long days in the saddle.

So true... the thing I find the hardest on multiple day riding is managing food and drinks... eat too little and you bonk, eat too much and you can't sleep, eat the wrong food and you get the runs...

Too much sugar and/or too many carbs don't work for me... problem is when you are not at home, you eat what you find, rather than what you should

nammynake

I'm planning to apply on the 20th and really hope I get a place. My longest ride to date is 200km so the step up in distance as well as back-to-back long days will be a challenge for sure. I did the Schwalbe TransAlp race in 2015 which consisted of seven consecutive road stages - although they were much shorter than what will be required on LEL (average of 100-120km but lots of ascent over Alpine climbs) they were done at a decent pace (23-27 kph) and did give me experience in riding on fatigued legs. I have decent speed in the legs (from regular chain-gangs and fast training rides) so hopefully if I can supplement this with increased endurance then I should be able to complete the ride in the allotted time.

Marcus - I've read your comments here and on many other posts/forums. Thanks for taking the time to provide really useful insight and advise.

marcusjb

nammynake wrote:

Marcus - I've read your comments here and on many other posts/forums. Thanks for taking the time to provide really useful insight and advise.

My pleasure. I am passionate about helping others to challenge themselves with distance.

I'm no athlete, I have a knackered lung, and was never particularly fast before I had chunks of it chopped out. But I can pedal a bike all day long, and then do it again the next day. I have experienced many amazing things since discovering distance riding, I have been to some incredible places and made many friends. I love the feeling and simplicity of just pedalling your bike, all you need to worry about is what to eat and where to sleep.

Every step up in distance can seem daunting at first, but it really is just about kicking them sticky-out things one after another.

Whilst I say it is more straight forward than it sounds, that is not to say it is easy. Of course it isn't, but it is rarely the riding a bike 300km a day that is the hard bit, it is the stuff surrounding it, be that poor weather, mechanicals, whatever - that's the stuff that let's you find out what you are made of.

Anyway, enough waffling. Riding a bike a long way at a moderate pace is all great and not beyond anyone who has mental resilience; it can take you to some amazing places, it can take you to some very very dark places; but it can also teach you just what you are truly made of when faced with adversity.

marcusjb

And best of luck for the 20th!

ugo.santalucia

marcusjb wrote:

I love the feeling and simplicity of just pedalling your bike, all you need to worry about is what to eat and where to sleep.

Every step up in distance can seem daunting at first, but it really is just about kicking them sticky-out things one after another.

Marcus, I read your blog... you seem to carry a lot of clothing with you... is it really necessary? For PBP end of August in France I would have though one short sleeve to wear, one pair of bibs to wear, a waterproof/windproof jacket in the rear pocket and maybe a long sleeve merino base layer for the night should be plenty... makes sense?

marcusjb

Like much in life, there is no right or wrong answer. I know people who will ride 1000km with nothing but a rain cape. I am a skinny little runt who feels the cold. I have ridden tens of thousands of km in all weather conditions and have worked out what I need to be comfortable for many days in the saddle.

For reference, PBP in 2015 had unusually low night time temperatures of around 5 degrees. There were plenty of very cold riders, especially those from warmer climates. I was wearing everything I had and was just about okay.

As per brakeless above, never underestimate the weather, particularly in Scotland!

Keep a good modular wardrobe to hand and you can get through everything.

ugo.santalucia

marcusjb wrote:

Like much in life, there is no right or wrong answer. I know people who will ride 1000km with nothing but a rain cape. I am a skinny little runt who feels the cold. I have ridden tens of thousands of km in all weather conditions and have worked out what I need to be comfortable for many days in the saddle.

For reference, PBP in 2015 had unusually low night time temperatures of around 5 degrees. There were plenty of very cold riders, especially those from warmer climates. I was wearing everything I had and was just about okay.

As per brakeless above, never underestimate the weather, particularly in Scotland!

Keep a good modular wardrobe to hand and you can get through everything.

What's your thought on seat packs? I like the Ortlieb one

https://www.ortlieb.com/en/Seat-Pack/

And it doesn't seem to be much more money than Carradice or other equivalent... my experience with Ortlieb products is that they are the best out there, the only truly waterproof

Brakeless

ugo.santalucia wrote:

marcusjb wrote:

Like much in life, there is no right or wrong answer. I know people who will ride 1000km with nothing but a rain cape. I am a skinny little runt who feels the cold. I have ridden tens of thousands of km in all weather conditions and have worked out what I need to be comfortable for many days in the saddle.

For reference, PBP in 2015 had unusually low night time temperatures of around 5 degrees. There were plenty of very cold riders, especially those from warmer climates. I was wearing everything I had and was just about okay.

As per brakeless above, never underestimate the weather, particularly in Scotland!

Keep a good modular wardrobe to hand and you can get through everything.

What's your thought on seat packs? I like the Ortlieb one

https://www.ortlieb.com/en/Seat-Pack/

And it doesn't seem to be much more money than Carradice or other equivalent... my experience with Ortlieb products is that they are the best out there, the only truly waterproof

I used exactly that seatpack on 1200 in Scotland this Summer. It's very good but it is massive. I had a sleeping bag in it along with food and sapre clothes. It's more of a bike packing thing than an Audax thing. That style of bag is very light, very aero and waterproof. The downside is that they are a bit of a PITA to get stuff out from and you have to pack heavy stuff near the saddle to help keep them stable. I've got a smaller one from Altura which is pretty good and waterproof as well, I've found the Altura one spot on for 600 type rides that you need a good selection of clothing.
https://www.edinburghbicycle.com/altura ... 0wodjucBPA

ugo.santalucia

Brakeless wrote:

I used exactly that seatpack on 1200 in Scotland this Summer. It's very good but it is massive. I had a sleeping bag in it along with food and sapre clothes. It's more of a bike packing thing than an Audax thing. That style of bag is very light, very aero and waterproof. The downside is that they are a bit of a PITA to get stuff out from and you have to pack heavy stuff near the saddle to help keep them stable. I've got a smaller one from Altura which is pretty good and waterproof as well, I've found the Altura one spot on for 600 type rides that you need a good selection of clothing.
https://www.edinburghbicycle.com/altura ... 0wodjucBPA

Thanks. I tend to stick the stuff I need in my rear pockets, including food and a wind/waterproof so I don't really need something to open on the fly... I would say waterproof, expandable, robust and aerodynamic are the main requirements... all boxes which the Ortlieb seem to tick. I see Rutland have it in stock for 95 pounds, which is only 15 pounds more than the Carradice equivalent

The Altura is cheaper but it has no rigid structure... does it not flap around like a reviewer seems to point out?

Brakeless

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Brakeless wrote:

I used exactly that seatpack on 1200 in Scotland this Summer. It's very good but it is massive. I had a sleeping bag in it along with food and sapre clothes. It's more of a bike packing thing than an Audax thing. That style of bag is very light, very aero and waterproof. The downside is that they are a bit of a PITA to get stuff out from and you have to pack heavy stuff near the saddle to help keep them stable. I've got a smaller one from Altura which is pretty good and waterproof as well, I've found the Altura one spot on for 600 type rides that you need a good selection of clothing.
https://www.edinburghbicycle.com/altura ... 0wodjucBPA

Thanks. I tend to stick the stuff I need in my rear pockets, including food and a wind/waterproof so I don't really need something to open on the fly... I would say waterproof, expandable, robust and aerodynamic are the main requirements... all boxes which the Ortlieb seem to tick. I see Rutland have it in stock for 95 pounds, which is only 15 pounds more than the Carradice equivalent

The Altura is cheaper but it has no rigid structure... does it not flap around like a reviewer seems to point out?

Once it's packed it becomes pretty rigid! You'll end up putting tubes and your multitool near the saddle for stability so you'll always need to get into it at some point. I can't see myself using the ortlieb one again until I know I'm going to be bivying and need a sleeping bag, it rolls down to a degree but it's still big. I'm planning a 1600km trip down to Munich next summer, hotel to hotel as well as LEL again and certainly won't need the Ortlieb one. If Ortlieb bring out a smaller version I'd get it straight away but the current one is too big unless you're carrying sleeping gear.

marcusjb

All that ^

I have used Carradice and bikepacking style bags (revelate viscacha) - both have pros and cons.

Carradice main pro is easy access to everything. Main con is heavy (especially with a bagman support).

Bikepacking bags are the opposite - poor access to stuff but super light.

The other big difference is weather proofing. A Carradice is, the majority of bike packing bags are not.

I've done a 1300, 1200 and 2500km with the Viscacha and you need to think carefully how to pack. They are best suited to stuff like sleeping bags that you only need to access once a day).

ugo.santalucia

Any thought on the Apidura?

https://www.lakes-cycles.com/apidura-sa ... 0wodraYGSA

Or even better, the smaller and fully waterproof...

https://www.lakes-cycles.com/apidura-saddle-pack-dry-9l

Brakeless

That waterproof one looks pretty good I reckon. It's similar to the Ortlieb but half (ish) the size which could be spot on.

ugo.santalucia

Brakeless wrote:

That waterproof one looks pretty good I reckon. It's similar to the Ortlieb but half (ish) the size which could be spot on.

Isn't 9 Lt a bit too minimal though?

The 14 lt version folds up pretty small, down to 6 lt... here (there is also in full waterproof version)

http://road.cc/content/review/182156-ap ... k-mid-size

bobmcstuff

Really, really want to do this, however I think 2017 is not the year for me as it coincides with when I'll need to do my MBA dissertation

2021 for me

marcusjb

bobmcstuff wrote:

Really, really want to do this, however I think 2017 is not the year for me as it coincides with when I'll need to do my MBA dissertation

2021 for me

Well, if you can't wait, there is always PBP in 2019!

(There are loads of other 1000km+ events across the world every year, but PBP and LEL are the biggies).

bobmcstuff

marcusjb wrote:

bobmcstuff wrote:

Really, really want to do this, however I think 2017 is not the year for me as it coincides with when I'll need to do my MBA dissertation

2021 for me

Well, if you can't wait, there is always PBP in 2019!

(There are loads of other 1000km+ events across the world every year, but PBP and LEL are the biggies).

Well that's more plausible as I'll graduate in 2018...

htsw5

So just how broken are you at the end of LEL?

I'm trying to figure out whether I can fit in doing LEL and then go straight on a family holiday on the Saturday. The problem being I have no idea how fast I'll do it in and being based in Edinburgh, I then have to figure out how to get home (i.e. which train to reserve a space on) and whether I'll be any use with helping to pack for the holiday etc.

Speed wise, I think I'll be okay as I was dragged round a 330km course at 28kmph (my longest ride to date) and I did the North Coast 500 (mile) over 4 days averaging 24kmph+ on the hilly route (credit card touring), but this is my first proper big audax, so I'm pondering whether my best option is to try and blast it and get home to recover (although this will mean I'll be worrying about whether I'll make my train the whole ride), or to try to get proper rest each night and return relatively refreshed on Friday. Is part of the fun of LEL the lack of sleep or can you get proper rest if you're fast enough?

Any thoughts from the old hands?

marcusjb

You have some pace on your side, so, if you don't want to smash your yourself up to much, focus on the simple stuff - 288km per day - that is what is needed to get around LEL in the time limit (the ride is a little over distance, so it is more like 295km before any pedants get excited).

If you want to finish in good shape, use your pace, but then get proper nights sleep etc. - possibly in hotels for the real cushy option.

That was pretty much my approach to PBP 2015. Mrs JB was coming out to Paris for the finish and I did not want to have her need to get to the velodrome at some unearthly hour, so everything was based around an 88ish hour ride that time. I stopped in hotels 2 out of 3 nights and it was all rather relaxing and straightforwards. Lots of socialising at bars etc, couple of meals at restaurants.

That's one approach.

Or, as you say, just go for it and hope for the best! There will be plenty of fast riders to work with, certainly on the way north. With this year's 100 hour option, it should provide a hurry up for that group.

Both options have merit, but having done both, the lots of sleep and possibly hotels option is very appealing. Certainly post PBP 2015, I felt in better shape* than at the end of any other 1000km+ ride.

As the challenge is not about speed, no one really cares whether you finish in 80 or 116 hours, it is the same thing. Time is not really spoken about. Sure people like to hear about the first rider back (65 hours or something daft), but beyond that, it doesn't matter**

* apart from my behind which took a bit of a beating as it was my first long ride on a fixed wheel.
**except on PBP, which is not a race these days, but is one of the only brevets where your time is published (and is engraved on your medal). Anything below 60 hours is fast.

ugo.santalucia

marcusjb wrote:

As the challenge is not about speed, no one really cares whether you finish in 80 or 116 hours, it is the same thing. Time is not really spoken about. Sure people like to hear about the first rider back (65 hours or something daft), but beyond that, it doesn't matter**

* apart from my behind which took a bit of a beating as it was my first long ride on a fixed wheel.
**except on PBP, which is not a race these days, but is one of the only brevets where your time is published (and is engraved on your medal). Anything below 60 hours is fast.

I thought there were time limits on both rides...

I thought hotel options make sense if you make up enough time. Between check in/check out, get to the hotel, get back on route and stuff you can easily lose an hour or more per night. Do they have mattresses and blankets at the check points?

cgraley77

Hi all,
Any idea when entry will open on the 20th (based on past events?).

Are we talking midnight, 3am, 8am?

Any advice gratefully received!

Cheers

marcusjb

https://londonedinburghlondon.com/2016/ ... ntry-news/

marcusjb

ugo.santalucia wrote:

marcusjb wrote:

As the challenge is not about speed, no one really cares whether you finish in 80 or 116 hours, it is the same thing. Time is not really spoken about. Sure people like to hear about the first rider back (65 hours or something daft), but beyond that, it doesn't matter**

* apart from my behind which took a bit of a beating as it was my first long ride on a fixed wheel.
**except on PBP, which is not a race these days, but is one of the only brevets where your time is published (and is engraved on your medal). Anything below 60 hours is fast.

I thought there were time limits on both rides...

I thought hotel options make sense if you make up enough time. Between check in/check out, get to the hotel, get back on route and stuff you can easily lose an hour or more per night. Do they have mattresses and blankets at the check points?

As long as you finish LEL in under 116 hours and 40 minutes, you have succeeded. Not many people care too much whether you've done that in 80 or 116 hours, it's irrelevant and all that matters is being within the time limit. Of course, you can set your own goals and time expectations, but that's a personal thing.

PBP is a little more complex in that there are three events in one: Vedettes with an 80 hour limit, Touristes with a 90 hour limit and Randonneur at 84 hours.

LEL is also introducing a 100 hour category this year to try and increase capacity.

As with all these things, if you start in the 80 hour group, but take 82, you have failed and will not have the ride recognised.

ugo.santalucia

Thanks,

I thought the 100 hours applied to all for LEL... 116 makes it a more palatable proposition... but I don't want to jump the gun. This year I want to do a hilly 300 or a flat 400, then next year maybe look at doing a 600... I like to do one step at a time... it makes for a project with more legs