Most overrated artist
Comments
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I suspect Sinatra might occasionally get that reaction from people who have only really registered him singing My Way or New York New York, and in his later less glorious years, when the voice was getting fallible. But his body of work over decades, and his musicianship are immense. He was peerless in his prime - e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IK_xmmB_L9EShortfall wrote:Can't agree with you about Sting and particularly Sinatra. To be considered great in any field be it sport, entertainment or politics etc then what sets you apart is longevity. There are lots of people who are brilliant for a short time frame but who ultimately don't stand the test of time. Both Sting and Sinatra sold millions of records across many decades and Sinatra is up there with Elvis and a select few others as one of the outstanding artists/performers of the 20th Century. If you don't like him that's fine but he didn't rely on hype, stunts or visual gimmickry like say Michael Jackson, he just sang the American songbook brilliantly and was one of the coolest dudes ever to walk the earth. Sting vies with Bono for most pretentious and annoying singer but set that aside and his body of work is impressive.0 -
briantrumpet wrote:...but there's been no-one like him in his prime.
I am surprised at that statement from you. My grandmother was an opera singer. She always said that Sinatra was always a little flat and the more I hear him, the more I agree.
Tom Jones - another shouter. Much more famous and successful than Englebert Huperdinck but he can't sing for toffee. Maybe that's TJ's underlying gripe with him.
Shirely Bassey - A whole career out of shouting. Surprised her vocal chords lasted so long.
My gripe with Adele is that when she sings Sotto Voce, she is spot on. When she raises her voice, she breaks into shouting. Clever composers and likewise, clever artists/lyricists, don't stretch their voices out of their maximum Octave range. When you hear Abba, Benny and Bjorn complied songs that fully exploited the range and limitations of the two girls brilliantly. Same as Simon and Garfunkel - never did the try to stray out of range and hence why the harmonies are so good.
Brice Springsteen shouts so hard his veins stick out of his neck. He's another singer who doesn't stay within his natural limits. If he had stuck to songs like 'I'm on fire' and 'Mr State Trooper', I would have liked him more and probably listened to him more.
A good example of a great voice is Katie Melua singing the Black cover, 'it's a wonderful life'. It's effortless. I wish she would do some more covers or someone write songs specifically for her because I don't really like the stuff she writes but her voice is stunning. Proper trained voices are leagues above most pop singers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abGe6uM9Ias
Classical is probably not most forumites thing but listen to this voice. Whether you like classical or not, you have to acknowledge the sheer perfection in this (Jane Edwards):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdlL5ObBMUAseanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Don't get me started on opera singers. Most of them you can't tell if they're in tune as they have a vibrato a tone or two either side of the target. Though I'm sure your grandmother was wonderful, of course...Pinno wrote:
I am surprised at that statement from you. My grandmother was an opera singer. She always said that Sinatra was always a little flat and the more I hear him, the more I agree.briantrumpet wrote:...but there's been no-one like him in his prime.
If you've never heard her, Anita O'Day might be more to your taste.
BTW, I don't disagree with your shouty dislike, or lack of technique of many singers: few can project properly without shouting, and rely on the mic to do all the work.
Oh, and vocal fry is another hate of mine. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UsE5mysfZsY0 -
In certain circles - NOFX. Punk really took a wrong turn when other bands started copying this lot.
Metallica.
Bon f^ckin Jovi.0 -
I have loads of Sinatra stuff, love his voice. Also Mel Torme, not even remotely cool to be a fan of his but has a great style.briantrumpet wrote:
Don't get me started on opera singers. Most of them you can't tell if they're in tune as they have a vibrato a tone or two either side of the target. Though I'm sure your grandmother was wonderful, of course...Pinno wrote:
I am surprised at that statement from you. My grandmother was an opera singer. She always said that Sinatra was always a little flat and the more I hear him, the more I agree.briantrumpet wrote:...but there's been no-one like him in his prime.
If you've never heard her, Anita O'Day might be more to your taste.
BTW, I don't disagree with your shouty dislike, or lack of technique of many singers: few can project properly without shouting, and rely on the mic to do all the work.
Oh, and vocal fry is another hate of mine. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UsE5mysfZsYOpen One+ BMC TE29 Seven 622SL On One Scandal Cervelo RS0 -
Garry H wrote:Madonna - singing in your bra and knickers isn't particularly ground-breaking.
Good call.
Had the misfortune of seeing her live.
Absolute garbage.0 -
briantrumpet wrote:
I suspect Sinatra might occasionally get that reaction from people who have only really registered him singing My Way or New York New York, and in his later less glorious years, when the voice was getting fallible. But his body of work over decades, and his musicianship are immense. He was peerless in his prime - e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IK_xmmB_L9EShortfall wrote:Can't agree with you about Sting and particularly Sinatra. To be considered great in any field be it sport, entertainment or politics etc then what sets you apart is longevity. There are lots of people who are brilliant for a short time frame but who ultimately don't stand the test of time. Both Sting and Sinatra sold millions of records across many decades and Sinatra is up there with Elvis and a select few others as one of the outstanding artists/performers of the 20th Century. If you don't like him that's fine but he didn't rely on hype, stunts or visual gimmickry like say Michael Jackson, he just sang the American songbook brilliantly and was one of the coolest dudes ever to walk the earth. Sting vies with Bono for most pretentious and annoying singer but set that aside and his body of work is impressive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BEaAbGuCfw
Listening to the Three Tenors sing my My Way make me realise what a great singer Sinatra is. It's just completely different to the classical opera style.As I said earlier he invented a different way of singing underpinned by a revolutionary breathing technique. His contribution to the art of singing in the big band era was immense. He was a pretty decent actor too.0 -
briantrumpet wrote:
Don't get me started on opera singers. Most of them you can't tell if they're in tune as they have a vibrato a tone or two either side of the target. Though I'm sure your grandmother was wonderful, of course..Pinno wrote:
I am surprised at that statement from you. My grandmother was an opera singer. She always said that Sinatra was always a little flat and the more I hear him, the more I agree.briantrumpet wrote:...but there's been no-one like him in his prime.
I do agree with you in that Opera singers often over embelish and add far too much vibrato:
Just for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cf8uyUtK3fA.
I didn't get to hear my grandmother sing. Her last performance was in Birmingham in 1953 in front of the Queen. After that, she conducted the Birmingham Civic Choir until the late 60's.briantrumpet wrote:If you've never heard her, Anita O'Day might be more to your taste.
Aaah, proper jazz singer - that's right up my street. Ella Fitzgerald and in proximity, Dinah Washington.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
And Diane Reeves. Gorgeous voice.Pinno wrote:briantrumpet wrote:
Don't get me started on opera singers. Most of them you can't tell if they're in tune as they have a vibrato a tone or two either side of the target. Though I'm sure your grandmother was wonderful, of course..Pinno wrote:
I am surprised at that statement from you. My grandmother was an opera singer. She always said that Sinatra was always a little flat and the more I hear him, the more I agree.briantrumpet wrote:...but there's been no-one like him in his prime.
I do agree with you in that Opera singers often over embelish and add far too much vibrato:
Just for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cf8uyUtK3fA.
I didn't get to hear my grandmother sing. Her last performance was in Birmingham in 1953 in front of the Queen. After that, she conducted the Birmingham Civic Choir until the late 60's.briantrumpet wrote:If you've never heard her, Anita O'Day might be more to your taste.
Aaah, proper jazz singer - that's right up my street. Ella Fitzgerald and in proximity, Dinah Washington.Open One+ BMC TE29 Seven 622SL On One Scandal Cervelo RS0 -
Garry H wrote:xdoc wrote:The beatles, a couple of decent songs but average musicians/vocalists and only so famous because of the 1000s of screaming teenage girls they attracted.
Agreed. I felt all alone until you said it
Same goes for Bowie, just don't get it.
He is definitely not alone.
More specifically Lennon and McCartney. Both were responsible for some right bilge, especially in the post Beatles years.0 -
Bob Dylan also. Terrible voice and a complete arse.0
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Robbie Williams, pub singer at best.
Dido, absolutely dire.0 -
Rating Springsteen based on his vocals seems to miss the point of Springsteen entirely as far as I'm concerned.Pinno wrote:Brice Springsteen shouts so hard his veins stick out of his neck. He's another singer who doesn't stay within his natural limits. If he had stuck to songs like 'I'm on fire' and 'Mr State Trooper', I would have liked him more and probably listened to him more.Rigga wrote:Bob Dylan also. Terrible voice and a complete ars*.
Ditto with Dylan.0 -
And another.Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:Rigga wrote:Bob Dylan also. Terrible voice and a complete ars*.
Ditto with Dylan.
I've never swallowed the line that it's great poetry. And anyway, if it's great poetry, just read it as a poem, don't try to sing it using a voice that has no idea what singing really is. If I want my ears to suffer like that, I'll cut the lyrics and stand with my ear next to an angle grinder for an hour or two.0 -
Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:
Rating Springsteen based on his vocals seems to miss the point of Springsteen entirely as far as I'm concerned.Pinno wrote:Brice Springsteen shouts so hard his veins stick out of his neck. He's another singer who doesn't stay within his natural limits. If he had stuck to songs like 'I'm on fire' and 'Mr State Trooper', I would have liked him more and probably listened to him more.Rigga wrote:Bob Dylan also. Terrible voice and a complete ars*.
Ditto with Dylan.
Not rate a singer on their vocals? How's that work then? :?0 -
Ballysmate wrote:Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:
Rating Springsteen based on his vocals seems to miss the point of Springsteen entirely as far as I'm concerned.Pinno wrote:Brice Springsteen shouts so hard his veins stick out of his neck. He's another singer who doesn't stay within his natural limits. If he had stuck to songs like 'I'm on fire' and 'Mr State Trooper', I would have liked him more and probably listened to him more.Rigga wrote:Bob Dylan also. Terrible voice and a complete ars*.
Ditto with Dylan.
Not rate a singer on their vocals? How's that work then? :?
Who wrote the vast majority of the songs Springsteen sings? And who wrote the songs Sinatra sang? If you think of Springsteen as a singer I also think that's missing the point of Springsteen.0 -
finchy wrote:In certain circles - NOFX.
whoa!! I can't have that!! Great band, first band a got really in to! (maybe i'm part of these certain circles you speak of!!)
I would throw in the sex pistols though, maybe i'm a bit young for them but it sounds like bad music played by people who were chosen to fit how they wanted the band to look/behave.www.conjunctivitis.com - a site for sore eyes0 -
Ballysmate wrote:Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:
Rating Springsteen based on his vocals seems to miss the point of Springsteen entirely as far as I'm concerned.Pinno wrote:Brice Springsteen shouts so hard his veins stick out of his neck. He's another singer who doesn't stay within his natural limits. If he had stuck to songs like 'I'm on fire' and 'Mr State Trooper', I would have liked him more and probably listened to him more.Rigga wrote:Bob Dylan also. Terrible voice and a complete ars*.
Ditto with Dylan.
Not rate a singer on their vocals? How's that work then? :?
Dunno but if you judge an artist on vocal ability alone then you'd have to discount some great acts like Shane Magowan, Johnny Rotten, Dylan, Leonard Cohen etc etc etc. Maybe it's the emotion in the voice or lyric, or that they've captured the zeitgeist or that having a perfect voice isn't always that important to making great music? If that's all it took then the charts would be made up entirely of talent contest contestants. I think it also depends on the genre so for instance Dylan could never get away with singing Three Coins In The Fountain, Frank Sinatra couldn't do Pretty Vacant and the Three Tenors couldn't do Jilted John. I hadn't really given it that much thought before but it must just boil down to personal taste and is probably the reason why I could never understand the success enjoyed by Madonna and Britney and their ilk who not only can't sing and cant play, but who have nothing to say either. They can dance and get their tits out though, which apparently is enough.0 -
Shortfall wrote:Ballysmate wrote:Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:
Rating Springsteen based on his vocals seems to miss the point of Springsteen entirely as far as I'm concerned.Pinno wrote:Brice Springsteen shouts so hard his veins stick out of his neck. He's another singer who doesn't stay within his natural limits. If he had stuck to songs like 'I'm on fire' and 'Mr State Trooper', I would have liked him more and probably listened to him more.Rigga wrote:Bob Dylan also. Terrible voice and a complete ars*.
Ditto with Dylan.
Not rate a singer on their vocals? How's that work then? :?
Dunno but if you judge an artist on vocal ability alone then you'd have to discount some great acts like Shane Magowan, Johnny Rotten, Dylan, Leonard Cohen etc etc etc. Maybe it's the emotion in the voice or lyric, or that they've captured the zeitgeist or that having a perfect voice isn't always that important to making great music? If that's all it took then the charts would be made up entirely of talent contest contestants. I think it also depends on the genre so for instance Dylan could never get away with singing Three Coins In The Fountain, Frank Sinatra couldn't do Pretty Vacant and the Three Tenors couldn't do Jilted John. I hadn't really given it that much thought before but it must just boil down to personal taste and is probably the reason why I could never understand the success enjoyed by Madonna and Britney and their ilk who not only can't sing and cant play, but who have nothing to say either. They can dance and get their tits out though, which apparently is enough.
I see your point. Axl Rose doesn't have much of a singing voice but he is in key and the voice fits the song/style. What narks me is when certain 'artists' are hailed as 'great singers'; Robbie Williams. That Buble tw@t, Whitney Houston etc.
Yes, pop can sound good despite various vocal inadequacies but the bar is oft set very low.
Springsteen singing 'Born in the USA' (not a song I like) could be done so much better with a better voice and the song might even be likeable. It just grates.seanoconn - gruagach craic!0 -
Chris Bass wrote:finchy wrote:In certain circles - NOFX.
whoa!! I can't have that!! Great band, first band a got really in to! (maybe i'm part of these certain circles you speak of!!)
I would throw in the sex pistols though, maybe i'm a bit young for them but it sounds like bad music played by people who were chosen to fit how they wanted the band to look/behave.
I don't hate them or anything, I just find that there were far better punk bands out there and their sound was a bandwagon that other bands shouldn't have jumped on.0 -
Pink Floyd
A band that was or perhaps still is fashionable to like.0 -
Bit of a different slant on this one but I find Jimi Hendrix frequently gets put on a pedastal as an amazing guitarist. I love his stuff, he was the first artist I ever really got into, and I appreciate how ground breaking he was but just as a guitarist I wouldn't rate him as highly as lots of others. As I say, as an artist he's awesome (I know that was the OP's question) but maybe he's just seen as the easy go-to guitar hero to non guitarists?0
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HaydenM wrote:Bit of a different slant on this one but I find Jimi Hendrix frequently gets put on a pedastal as an amazing guitarist. I love his stuff, he was the first artist I ever really got into, and I appreciate how ground breaking he was but just as a guitarist I wouldn't rate him as highly as lots of others. As I say, as an artist he's awesome (I know that was the OP's question) but maybe he's just seen as the easy go-to guitar hero to non guitarists?
Personally I don't think anyone can match up to Hendrix when he's viewed in the context of what came before him and who his contemporaries were.
The Rolling Stones, Cream and Zeppelin were still recycling old blues licks (very well, don't get me wrong). The Small Faces and The Kinks were pushing the British sound but there wasn't much to write home about when it came to guitar playing. Duane Allman and Dickey Betts were possibly the greatest duo in terms of guitar players of all time, I'm a massive Duane fan but I don't even think his slide playing pushed guitar playing forward as much as Hendrix did.
Out of interest, who do you rate above him?0 -
Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:HaydenM wrote:Bit of a different slant on this one but I find Jimi Hendrix frequently gets put on a pedastal as an amazing guitarist. I love his stuff, he was the first artist I ever really got into, and I appreciate how ground breaking he was but just as a guitarist I wouldn't rate him as highly as lots of others. As I say, as an artist he's awesome (I know that was the OP's question) but maybe he's just seen as the easy go-to guitar hero to non guitarists?
Personally I don't think anyone can match up to Hendrix when he's viewed in the context of what came before him and who his contemporaries were.
The Rolling Stones, Cream and Zeppelin were still recycling old blues licks (very well, don't get me wrong). The Small Faces and The Kinks were pushing the British sound but there wasn't much to write home about when it came to guitar playing. Duane Allman and Dickey Betts were possibly the greatest duo in terms of guitar players of all time, I'm a massive Duane fan but I don't even think his slide playing pushed guitar playing forward as much as Hendrix did.
Out of interest, who do you rate above him?
That is probably it really, as a modern guitar hero I'm not sure I'd put him in with others, I guess he is the guitar hero to lots of people though. I can't really disagree with any of that in terms of ground breaking playing, my opinion comes from people (me) unfairly rating him against modern guitarists, I don't put him on to specifically listen to his guitar work like I would with someone more modern like Derek Trucks for example. Though I'd take Peter Green at his best over Hendrix any day 0 -
Led Zep is a great shout, agree with above poster, all white boy blues. Eric Crapton especially.
I usuallyget flamed big time for this one though...
Velvet Underground. What a screech.Superstition sets the whole world in flames; philosophy quenches them.
Voltaire0 -
HaydenM wrote:Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:HaydenM wrote:Bit of a different slant on this one but I find Jimi Hendrix frequently gets put on a pedastal as an amazing guitarist. I love his stuff, he was the first artist I ever really got into, and I appreciate how ground breaking he was but just as a guitarist I wouldn't rate him as highly as lots of others. As I say, as an artist he's awesome (I know that was the OP's question) but maybe he's just seen as the easy go-to guitar hero to non guitarists?
Personally I don't think anyone can match up to Hendrix when he's viewed in the context of what came before him and who his contemporaries were.
The Rolling Stones, Cream and Zeppelin were still recycling old blues licks (very well, don't get me wrong). The Small Faces and The Kinks were pushing the British sound but there wasn't much to write home about when it came to guitar playing. Duane Allman and Dickey Betts were possibly the greatest duo in terms of guitar players of all time, I'm a massive Duane fan but I don't even think his slide playing pushed guitar playing forward as much as Hendrix did.
Out of interest, who do you rate above him?
That is probably it really, as a modern guitar hero I'm not sure I'd put him in with others, I guess he is the guitar hero to lots of people though. I can't really disagree with any of that in terms of ground breaking playing, my opinion comes from people (me) unfairly rating him against modern guitarists, I don't put him on to specifically listen to his guitar work like I would with someone more modern like Derek Trucks for example. Though I'd take Peter Green at his best over Hendrix any day
Derek Trucks has surpassed Duane in my eyes and that's a bloody difficult thing to do!
Peter Green playing need your love so bad is possibly one of my top 5 guitar based songs of all time (which, like all true guitarists, changes every 2 weeks ). Superb example of what you can do with a few well played notes. David Lindley's guitar work on Late For the Sky by Jackson Browne (title track specifically) is probably my favourite. 0 -
Bob Dylan0
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Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:HaydenM wrote:Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:HaydenM wrote:Bit of a different slant on this one but I find Jimi Hendrix frequently gets put on a pedastal as an amazing guitarist. I love his stuff, he was the first artist I ever really got into, and I appreciate how ground breaking he was but just as a guitarist I wouldn't rate him as highly as lots of others. As I say, as an artist he's awesome (I know that was the OP's question) but maybe he's just seen as the easy go-to guitar hero to non guitarists?
Personally I don't think anyone can match up to Hendrix when he's viewed in the context of what came before him and who his contemporaries were.
The Rolling Stones, Cream and Zeppelin were still recycling old blues licks (very well, don't get me wrong). The Small Faces and The Kinks were pushing the British sound but there wasn't much to write home about when it came to guitar playing. Duane Allman and Dickey Betts were possibly the greatest duo in terms of guitar players of all time, I'm a massive Duane fan but I don't even think his slide playing pushed guitar playing forward as much as Hendrix did.
Out of interest, who do you rate above him?
That is probably it really, as a modern guitar hero I'm not sure I'd put him in with others, I guess he is the guitar hero to lots of people though. I can't really disagree with any of that in terms of ground breaking playing, my opinion comes from people (me) unfairly rating him against modern guitarists, I don't put him on to specifically listen to his guitar work like I would with someone more modern like Derek Trucks for example. Though I'd take Peter Green at his best over Hendrix any day
Derek Trucks has surpassed Duane in my eyes and that's a bloody difficult thing to do!
Peter Green playing need your love so bad is possibly one of my top 5 guitar based songs of all time (which, like all true guitarists, changes every 2 weeks ). Superb example of what you can do with a few well played notes. David Lindley's guitar work on Late For the Sky by Jackson Browne (title track specifically) is probably my favourite.
Peter Green - I've Got a Mind to Give Up Living
Based on BB King's All Over Again. BB King
There are many Peter Green tracks that are epic. The blues guitarist that gave BB chills.
Worried Dream
Love that Burns[/quote]
An outstanding version of an Elmore James classic by Derek Trucks and Warren Haynes.
The Sky is Crying
I believe this is the song the Allman Brothers played at Duane's funeral.0 -
Here's one who came to mind while sweating away on the TT, rain having put kybosh on planned outdoor action.
Tom Odell.
I heard him do a live radio session on Jo Whiley's evening R2 session back end last year, November?, and I rated his performance as pants. Hyped up Brit rich-kid singer-songwriter.0
