Dynamo hubs, how much drag?

2

Comments

  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    alan sherman wrote:
    I have a SON delux, honestly don't notice it is there. i even commute in daylight with the lights on now as I've become too lazy to switch the switch. I used that wheel on all winter club runs too. I doubt I'll ever get a non-dynamo front wheel again.

    The shutter precision ones are about the same efficiency but cheaper.

    My only regret was not getting a disc one (for flexibility)

    I'd have to get a disc one. The SON flange geometry for disc is not ideal, but it would go on a "mainly for flat" single speed bike, so it shouldn't be a massive issue.

    Shutter precision? Noted

    I tried SP - wheel was wobbly so had it replaced with a SON. At least for rim brakes, the SON has wider flange spacing.

    Incidentally, I can tell no difference between hub running and not running (or indeed, no dynamo at all.

    PS everybody, bar none, who buys a dynamo hub for the first time complains about the apparent friction and notchiness of the hub when spun off the bike......
    Faster than a tent.......
  • priory
    priory Posts: 743
    I bought a basic shimano hubdynamo about 15yrs ago and rode it on tour , club rides , all winter riding etc for 10yrs before learning that it had the same drag whether switched on or off (unlike modern hubdynamos) It was not noticeable . Perhaps if you were struggling to keep up with a peleton the 8watts would be of interest , but even then it is usually on the hills they drop you. Audaax rides always have lots of hub dynamos on them.
    Raleigh Eclipse, , Dahon Jetstream XP, Raleigh Banana, Dawes super galaxy, Raleigh Clubman

    http://s189.photobucket.com/albums/z122 ... =slideshow
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,317
    Didn't think lights for dynamo would be soooo expensive... anything in the 400-600 Lumens range under 100 quid?
    left the forum March 2023
  • alan_sherman
    alan_sherman Posts: 1,157
    I have a B&M Cyo IQ. Wasn't over £100 and is good for unlit Thames Path / Richmond Park.

    I think the older version of this:
    https://www.rosebikes.com/article/b--m- ... aid:709237
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,317
    alan sherman wrote:
    I have a B&M Cyo IQ. Wasn't over £100 and is good for unlit Thames Path / Richmond Park.

    I think the older version of this:
    https://www.rosebikes.com/article/b--m- ... aid:709237

    Where does it clamp to? I have disc brakes, that looks like a fork clamp of some sort...
    left the forum March 2023
  • svetty
    svetty Posts: 1,904
    Genuine question: what happens to the light output if you stop - eg at roadside or a junction?
    FFS! Harden up and grow a pair :D
  • roger_merriman
    roger_merriman Posts: 6,165
    Svetty wrote:
    Genuine question: what happens to the light output if you stop - eg at roadside or a junction?

    Most/all have standby lights so unless you stop for say a coffee you'll remain lit.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,317
    So in all for a Son 28 + a decent front light we are looking at 300 quid give or take, plus a bunch of spokes

    On the other hand, a 2.2Ah battery pack for my Cateye Volt 400 is 16 quid...

    http://www.fawkes-cycles.co.uk/2471764/ ... black.aspx

    if I get 3, plus the current one I have 8 hours worth of light for 50 quid... I can't really see myself cycling for more than 8 hours in the dark before reaching a charging point. Even if I was to do PBP... how many hours of night riding am I likely to do? Guess no more than 8 or so over the all duration.

    3 Extra batteries take very little room and weigh about the same as the difference between my current hub and a Son...

    Difficult to justify it, other than on the grounds that I like the idea of producing my own power rather than using the grid for environmental reasons
    left the forum March 2023
  • roger_merriman
    roger_merriman Posts: 6,165
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    So in all for a Son 28 + a decent front light we are looking at 300 quid give or take, plus a bunch of spokes

    On the other hand, a 2.2Ah battery pack for my Cateye Volt 400 is 16 quid...

    http://www.fawkes-cycles.co.uk/2471764/ ... black.aspx

    if I get 3, plus the current one I have 8 hours worth of light for 50 quid... I can't really see myself cycling for more than 8 hours in the dark before reaching a charging point. Even if I was to do PBP... how many hours of night riding am I likely to do? Guess no more than 8 or so over the all duration.

    3 Extra batteries take very little room and weigh about the same as the difference between my current hub and a Son...

    Difficult to justify it, other than on the grounds that I like the idea of producing my own power rather than using the grid for environmental reasons

    For that sort of use, lights with battery packs do start to make sense, £50-£60 will get you 10hrs at low/medium and 3-4hrs at full. most though not all are MTB lights so that sort of beam patten.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,317
    roger merriman wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    So in all for a Son 28 + a decent front light we are looking at 300 quid give or take, plus a bunch of spokes

    On the other hand, a 2.2Ah battery pack for my Cateye Volt 400 is 16 quid...

    http://www.fawkes-cycles.co.uk/2471764/ ... black.aspx

    if I get 3, plus the current one I have 8 hours worth of light for 50 quid... I can't really see myself cycling for more than 8 hours in the dark before reaching a charging point. Even if I was to do PBP... how many hours of night riding am I likely to do? Guess no more than 8 or so over the all duration.

    3 Extra batteries take very little room and weigh about the same as the difference between my current hub and a Son...

    Difficult to justify it, other than on the grounds that I like the idea of producing my own power rather than using the grid for environmental reasons

    For that sort of use, lights with battery packs do start to make sense, £50-£60 will get you 10hrs at low/medium and 3-4hrs at full. most though not all are MTB lights so that sort of beam patten.

    I am OK with my Cateye... I am sure there is better out there, but it works fine. I like the bars clip system... very easy
    left the forum March 2023
  • priory
    priory Posts: 743
    you could spend £300 or

    SPA CYCLES SP PV-8 Dynamo Wheel
    BUSCH & M�LLER Lumotec IQ2 Eyc T Senso Plus
    SPA CYCLES SP PV-8/IQ2 Eyc Wheel & Light Bundle
    these would cost 190gbp from spa cycles and will be better than anyhting I have used. off it uses less than 1 watt and on 5W. you can get a 20gbp light on ebay which would give 30lux . That would have been very bright few years ago.
    The massive advantage of the dynamo is that you are spared fiddling with batteries every day.
    I always have a spare lighting set of some sort whatever I am using.

    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Shutter-Preci ... SwG-1WxHSo
    so if you build your own wheels you could sort it out for 100gbp.

    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AXA-HR-Power- ... SwopRYb7wC
    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AXA-Echo-15-L ... SwPCVX2Qbo
    I have this bottle dynamo on the old hack bike and it has always worked well . i mention this because it has no mechanical drag when off . you can get 30lux lights under 20gbp on ebay now.
    Raleigh Eclipse, , Dahon Jetstream XP, Raleigh Banana, Dawes super galaxy, Raleigh Clubman

    http://s189.photobucket.com/albums/z122 ... =slideshow
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,317
    priory wrote:
    you could spend £300 or

    SPA CYCLES SP PV-8 Dynamo Wheel
    BUSCH & M�LLER Lumotec IQ2 Eyc T Senso Plus
    SPA CYCLES SP PV-8/IQ2 Eyc Wheel & Light Bundle
    these would cost 190gbp from spa cycles and will be better than anyhting I have used. off it uses less than 1 watt and on 5W. you can get a 20gbp light on ebay which would give 30lux . That would have been very bright few years ago.
    The massive advantage of the dynamo is that you are spared fiddling with batteries every day.
    I always have a spare lighting set of some sort whatever I am using.

    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Shutter-Preci ... SwG-1WxHSo
    so if you build your own wheels you could sort it out for 100gbp.

    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AXA-HR-Power- ... SwopRYb7wC
    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AXA-Echo-15-L ... SwPCVX2Qbo
    I have this bottle dynamo on the old hack bike and it has always worked well . i mention this because it has no mechanical drag when off . you can get 30lux lights under 20gbp on ebay now.

    The SP hub is tempting at that price. As for the light... that fitment goes on the brake bridge, doesn't it? I have disc brakes, not sure where I would fit that kind of light
    left the forum March 2023
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    The SP hub is tempting at that price. As for the light... that fitment goes on the brake bridge, doesn't it? I have disc brakes, not sure where I would fit that kind of light

    But as a wheel afficionado would you approve of the narrower hub of the SP over the SON? Unless they've had the sense to redesign it in the couple of years since I changed my mind and upgraded a faulty SP to a SON. Always easier coping with the painful price when it comes in stages.......

    Yep - B&M lights seem pretty specifically oriented to fork mounting. Though, if you are running a dynamo logic says you have proper mudguards which says you have a hole in the back of the fork which suggests you ought to have one in the front as well because who knows what you might need it for (eg a light!).

    The dynamo solution also allows you the cool B&M Toplight rear light with the brake light function. How could you possibly not want that?!
    Faster than a tent.......
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,317
    Rolf F wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    The SP hub is tempting at that price. As for the light... that fitment goes on the brake bridge, doesn't it? I have disc brakes, not sure where I would fit that kind of light

    But as a wheel afficionado would you approve of the narrower hub of the SP over the SON? Unless they've had the sense to redesign it in the couple of years since I changed my mind and upgraded a faulty SP to a SON. Always easier coping with the painful price when it comes in stages.......

    Yep - B&M lights seem pretty specifically oriented to fork mounting. Though, if you are running a dynamo logic says you have proper mudguards which says you have a hole in the back of the fork which suggests you ought to have one in the front as well because who knows what you might need it for (eg a light!).

    The dynamo solution also allows you the cool B&M Toplight rear light with the brake light function. How could you possibly not want that?!

    I need to look into the flange of the disc one... that said, it's a front wheel, how stiff do you need it to be?

    Not sure why a dynamo would imply having mudguards... is it kind of a stereotype, like if you have an AUK membership then you have a beard and a 1980s horrible jersey too? :wink:
    left the forum March 2023
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    The sp disc brake hubs build into fine wheels. Done many. Dine many with the son hubs. They are all stiff enough.

    The shimano hub feels like it has the lowest drag mind.

    The sp pd8x hub with centrelock mount is not symmetric and has the widest flange seperation of all the dynamo hubs at 50mm centre to centre. you to use a asymmetric rim with an offset of 2mm to 3mm (offset in the hub is 5.5mm) to even out tensions.

    Hense the sp pd8x is my favourite. I have do one for my bike at some point. Yes i have mudguards too. If you are going to be sensknle with a dynamo you might as well use guards, grow a beard and be a bit eccentric.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Not sure why a dynamo would imply having mudguards... is it kind of a stereotype, like if you have an AUK membership then you have a beard and a 1980s horrible jersey too? :wink:

    Well, you are adding weight and complexity to a bike in favour of practicality so it would be curious to be OK with that but resent the weight of the mudguards. The dynamo is there primarily because you are running lights (it's a silly thing to have a dynamo purely to charge a gps) and if you are running lights and worrying about having to keep recharging them, then probably you are riding the bike in winter and probably going to enjoy the ride more with dry feet and backside.
    Yes, you don't have to have mudguards if you run a dynamo but you are making pretty unusual choices if you don't. And, as ever, if you are the only person doing something, then you can't expect the manufacturers to cater for you. Particularly when the manufacturer is a very sensible German one!
    My objection with the B&M lights is that the bracket is a bit short and of such a design as to make it relatively easy to knock out of line - you bolt effectively through a loop of thick round wire rather than through a flat faced hole. It's a bit crappy. The B&M stuff might also be too clever for its own good - both my Luxos U front and Toplight brake rears have had to be replaced under warranty.

    Incidentally, on the subject of front wheel stiffness - mine is decidedly noodly but only when laden. I think tensions are fine and fork geometry is OK so I am a bit stumped. Front rack is a bit lacking in straightness due to an unfortunate incident but I can check that by testing with a spare Blackburn rack. And by testing with the non dynamo wheel. It's a bit of a nightmare as the problem only arises with certain loading patterns.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,317
    Rolf F wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Not sure why a dynamo would imply having mudguards... is it kind of a stereotype, like if you have an AUK membership then you have a beard and a 1980s horrible jersey too? :wink:

    Well, you are adding weight and complexity to a bike in favour of practicality so it would be curious to be OK with that but resent the weight of the mudguards. The dynamo is there primarily because you are running lights (it's a silly thing to have a dynamo purely to charge a gps) and if you are running lights and worrying about having to keep recharging them, then probably you are riding the bike in winter and probably going to enjoy the ride more with dry feet and backside.
    Yes, you don't have to have mudguards if you run a dynamo but you are making pretty unusual choices if you don't. And, as ever, if you are the only person doing something, then you can't expect the manufacturers to cater for you. Particularly when the manufacturer is a very sensible German one!
    My objection with the B&M lights is that the bracket is a bit short and of such a design as to make it relatively easy to knock out of line - you bolt effectively through a loop of thick round wire rather than through a flat faced hole. It's a bit crappy. The B&M stuff might also be too clever for its own good - both my Luxos U front and Toplight brake rears have had to be replaced under warranty.

    Incidentally, on the subject of front wheel stiffness - mine is decidedly noodly but only when laden. I think tensions are fine and fork geometry is OK so I am a bit stumped. Front rack is a bit lacking in straightness due to an unfortunate incident but I can check that by testing with a spare Blackburn rack. And by testing with the non dynamo wheel. It's a bit of a nightmare as the problem only arises with certain loading patterns.

    Mudguards are not about the weight... it's the fuff involved in fitting them, making sure they don't rub, cleaning them underneath... they are just more hassle than they are worth... I can see an "ass saver" as a solution for "those days", but full mudguards it's not something I am considering at the moment... I might change my mind after a 200 km Audax in the rain, as well as I might not...
    left the forum March 2023
  • cycleclinic
    cycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    ugo what you have just said is rubbish. I have a genesis equilibrium disc. I have 28mm tyres on it a flinger mudguards. They were not hassle to fit I just cut the stays to the right length and one year later they are still there. They have never rubbed as they have proper stays and the bike has proper mounting points. Also I have never cleaned them. I mean that they are not clogged with mud.

    Mudguards save me hassle rather than create it. I don't know if your fugio has mudguard mounts. If it does not then dont fit guards. If you want mudguards buy a bike with proper mounting points. It really is that simple.

    Rolf what hub do you have and what rim. Measure the flange to flange distance (centre to centre).
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Mudguards are not about the weight... it's the fuff involved in fitting them, making sure they don't rub, cleaning them underneath... they are just more hassle than they are worth... I can see an "ass saver" as a solution for "those days", but full mudguards it's not something I am considering at the moment... I might change my mind after a 200 km Audax in the rain, as well as I might not...

    You can build wheels - that's a skill. Fitting mudguards is an order of magnitude easier. Don't be lazy; fit the mudguards before the 200km rainy audax.

    FWIW, mostly the SKS variety are straightforward to fit (if you've mastered the ability to do nuts up properly) and you don't need to clean them underneath specifically - just hose down between wheel and mudguard. It's not hard. And put leather mudflaps on them as well. They coalesce the water droplets and reduce spray on your feet.

    Malcolm - will get back to you re the hub.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,317
    Did I say elsewhere that I don't want mudguards?

    Imagine the hassle of having to remove the front every time I put the bike on the stand (yes, I have one of those!), which is every time I clean it, which is probably every week, given I don't have access to a hose...

    I really really don't want mudguards
    left the forum March 2023
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,317
    More to the point, if my disc fork is not drilled for a brake, it means I cannot use lights with that type of hook mount... what other options are available in terms of dynamo powered lights?
    left the forum March 2023
  • priory
    priory Posts: 743
    All this reminded me I had a hub dynamo on a wheel in the garage so I put it on my galaxy. It is a shimano dh3nx20 and weighs 850g so that is an extra 400g on the font wheel compared to the sp. The bike with a rackpack on is a lump anyway.I rode 30miles today with the light on and as a touring bike it felt fine so I will leave it on. The sp is so much lighter I think I would go for that if buying one.

    To mount the light I would be looking for mudguard eyes to screw it to ( I put mine on a lowrider eye on the right fork)or somehow mounting it to the handlebars. Or the bracket could be taped and ziptied to the steerer tube.
    Raleigh Eclipse, , Dahon Jetstream XP, Raleigh Banana, Dawes super galaxy, Raleigh Clubman

    http://s189.photobucket.com/albums/z122 ... =slideshow
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,317
    priory wrote:

    To mount the light I would be looking for mudguard eyes to screw it to ( I put mine on a lowrider eye on the right fork)or somehow mounting it to the handlebars. Or the bracket could be taped and ziptied to the steerer tube.

    Thanks, it just seems strange that there is no dedicated solution... it's not that touring bikes with discs have been invented yesterday
    left the forum March 2023
  • priory
    priory Posts: 743
    I forgot to mention P-clips .The lights I have can be stripped of their brackets and screwed onto a p-clip on the fork with a nut and bolt. unfortunately in that position you get a shadow of the wheel.

    http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Cycling/7294/ ... kw=p+clips
    Raleigh Eclipse, , Dahon Jetstream XP, Raleigh Banana, Dawes super galaxy, Raleigh Clubman

    http://s189.photobucket.com/albums/z122 ... =slideshow
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,317
    priory wrote:
    I forgot to mention P-clips .The lights I have can be stripped of their brackets and screwed onto a p-clip on the fork with a nut and bolt. unfortunately in that position you get a shadow of the wheel.

    http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Cycling/7294/ ... kw=p+clips

    Problem is p-clips don't fit modern bladed disc forks, so back to square one...
    left the forum March 2023
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Did I say elsewhere that I don't want mudguards?

    Imagine the hassle of having to remove the front every time I put the bike on the stand (yes, I have one of those!), which is every time I clean it, which is probably every week, given I don't have access to a hose...

    I really really don't want mudguards

    Or you just loosen the stays and bend the mudguard out of the way. But do carry on looking hard for those imaginary problems!
    Faster than a tent.......
  • rolf_f
    rolf_f Posts: 16,015
    thecycleclinic wrote:
    Rolf what hub do you have and what rim. Measure the flange to flange distance (centre to centre).

    SON28 - 62mm wide at the flanges. 32 hole on Rigida Snyper rims.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,317
    edited February 2017
    Rolf F wrote:

    Or you just loosen the stays and bend the mudguard out of the way. But do carry on looking hard for those imaginary problems!

    I have just bought a ridiculously large Ortlieb saddlebag, which looks an eyesore, but it's very handy in winter, to stuff an extra layer and some thicker gloves... it's not about looks I am on about. I just don't see the benefits of a marginally drier ass overturning the drawbacks that virtually all mudguard users experience, especially those using plastic SKS stuff. They limit severely the range of tyres I can use... how would I be able to fit 40 mm studded tyres tomorrow morning if I had those things on? I'd have to visit A&E... but I am sure the nurses would applaud my dry (if broken) ass! :roll:
    I don't seem to go through bottom brackets quicker than folks on mudguards, I don't really see in which way they are going to benefit me, bearing in mind I very rarely ride with others...

    You come from a touring perspective, different requirements altogether

    Most of all, this is NOT a thread about mudguards, not sure that has come across
    left the forum March 2023
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,317
    Rolf F wrote:
    thecycleclinic wrote:
    Rolf what hub do you have and what rim. Measure the flange to flange distance (centre to centre).

    SON28 - 62mm wide at the flanges. 32 hole on Rigida Snyper rims.

    That is wider than any rear hub flange... so if it's good enough for a rear wheel, it should be more than plenty for a front one
    left the forum March 2023
  • Ber Nard
    Ber Nard Posts: 827
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    priory wrote:

    To mount the light I would be looking for mudguard eyes to screw it to ( I put mine on a lowrider eye on the right fork)or somehow mounting it to the handlebars. Or the bracket could be taped and ziptied to the steerer tube.

    Thanks, it just seems strange that there is no dedicated solution... it's not that touring bikes with discs have been invented yesterday

    B&M do sell alternative mounts that allow their dynamo lights to be fitted to handlebars.

    https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/lighting-sp ... g-bracket/

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